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Has friendly fire been removed?


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#126
TucoBenedicto

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Amioran wrote...

TucoBenedicto wrote...
Ironically enough, it's what are you saying which doesn't make any sense.
You argued about giving people an option to play an entirely different gamestyle, and yet you are speaking as if FF was part of the core balancing of the difficulty level.


In fact FF is a CORE balancing aspect of the difficulty level. What this have to do with playing "an entirely different gamestyle" is really beyond me.

Yes, surely it is, cause as I've already pointed you're totally clueless, despise how hard you try to act baldly.

FF ON -> Paying attention about how do you place and move your men on the battliefield, moving them accordling to the powers you ar going to use, etc.
FF OFF -> totally ignoring displacement of your troops and caring just about who must target what.

It's probably more about HOW do you play the game than any other setting.

Giving freedom doesn't equal being feasible in a game that should be so for everyone.

And that's the point: it shouln't. That's the main fault about many mainstream developers, they still think they have to make games which are appealing to *everyone*, so they aim for the lowest common denominator instead of aiming for people who love the genre.
It's pretty much the same old "our customers are probably dumb" attidude.
And that's why Bioware will probably  never achieve the Baldur'sGate 2 production level again.

If that freedom can break balance for another individual then it cannot be done. A toggle for FF will destroy balance since you change a core dynamic of the gameplay from the root. It is very simple to understand.

It doesn't matter if you are going to rebeat this bull**** 10000 times, it still deeply untrue.
Even only the fact that you can raise or lower the difficulty setting and turn FF on or off just by doing that is the obvious proof that you are wrong.
If it was that big deal to handle you shouldn't have an option in the first place, not even linked to various difficulty levels.

And honestly, do you actually think that difficulty settings can work only in preset levels?
What about all these games which allows you to set the challenge tuning any single parameter?
What about ToEE, JA2, Space Rangers 2? King's Bounty, etc?

Why don't you try yourself doing a mod for DAO that give the option to remove FF from nightmare difficulty

Despise not being confident with modding, cause it would be ****ing stupid and pointless?
Even playing at the lowest difficulty FF is the MAIN thing I would not going to renounce.
Anyway, even if I would do it, how could that be in any way more unbalanced than any other lower difficulty setting?
You are just blabbing nonsense in a very pompous and self-confident way, but that doesn't make your arguments any better.

Maybe because I worked with Simulmondo back in the days when Amiga games where produced?

How can anyone brag about that? Incidentally I know that software house and, jesus, you guys never ever delivered an half decent game. may god forgive Carlà.

and since FF change core dynamics on the root in unpredictable way (since the parameters tied to it are too many)

No. they aren't. FF ON -> just stay out of AOE damage spells. How could it be any more simple?
It's not like you shold remake any sort of math just for that feature.
Actually,in some way is almost more unbalacing giving exclusive items to different resellers.

Modifié par TucoBenedicto, 18 décembre 2010 - 02:57 .


#127
Aermas

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To the OP, I too hope friendly fire is still in the game. Anyone who has played any table-top game should know not to get in the way of the wizards fireball.

Oh, & what are the parameters of this argument? I'd like to get in on this.

Modifié par Aermas, 18 décembre 2010 - 03:05 .


#128
Ziggeh

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Sepewrath wrote...

Well I don't see why the FF settings were changed from Origin, half on hard mode and full on nightmare worked
just fine.


They added more AoE. Essentially: it worked fine under a different combat system, but apparently not in this one.

TucoBenedicto
wrote...

Friendly fire can be an issue to balance in multiplayer co-op games, where many players are sharing the same area. Not  surely in a single player RPG where the player can coordinate the whole party.

TucoBenedicto wrote...
You don't create a tactical battle balancing FF off. You balance your combat system with FF turned on, to any difficulty level, and just then you give an ulterior option to incompetent players which want an easy mode where they don't have to think or plan anything and can just nuke everything AOE, mindlessly.

These points make me think you don't really understand the nature of the problem, that might be why you're not seeing how it could be one. You're looking at FF in isolation from the game in which it will exist, or in relation to other games that don't have the same issues as DA2.

They're adding in a spec that does aoe by default, as in, does consistant damage to anyone in range. It's not simple a case of using it cautiously or sparingly as in DA:O. It will literally be unavoidable "mindless" aoe. You could avoid it by bringing that spec, but that would be terrible design.

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 18 décembre 2010 - 03:20 .


#129
TucoBenedicto

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ziggehunderslash wrote...

They're adding in a spec that does aoe by default, as in, does consistant damage to anyone in range. It's not simple a case of using it cautiously or sparingly as in DA:O. It will literally be unavoidable "mindless" aoe. You could avoid it by bringing that spec, but that would be terrible design.

Well, if this is actually true then this *IS* terrible design.
But then again I can't believe it, cause if you're right, then this specialization we are taling about  would be literally unusable on the highest difficulty setting, where friendly fire is turned on by default, which doesn't make any sense.
So you're probably wrong.

Modifié par TucoBenedicto, 18 décembre 2010 - 03:31 .


#130
errant_knight

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Okay, early in the thread, there was mention that warriors had aoe, now. This is something I seem to have missed and seems pretty odd. How's that work, anyway?

#131
Herr Uhl

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errant_knight wrote...

Okay, early in the thread, there was mention that warriors had aoe, now. This is something I seem to have missed and seems pretty odd. How's that work, anyway?


The slashes do damage in an area in front of the warrior instead of on a single target.

#132
errant_knight

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Uh.... Gah. No. I'm not going to say anything. I'm going to pretend I never heard that. I just can't deal with one more freakin' thing.

Edit: Okay, I have to ask one thing. This is something we can not use, right?

Modifié par errant_knight, 18 décembre 2010 - 03:42 .


#133
Ziggeh

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TucoBenedicto wrote...

Well, if this is actually true then this *IS* terrible design.

Only if they keep friendly fire at most levels. See, that's why.

TucoBenedicto wrote...
But then again I can't believe it, cause if you're right, then this specialization we are taling about  would be literally unusable on the highest difficulty setting, where friendly fire is turned on by default, which doesn't make any sense.
So you're probably wrong.

The last I heard the plan was for nightmare to be "technically possible" rather than balanced with success in mind. I really rather hope this is the case, because that I feel is the point of nightmare, but I can entirely see why the rules for what is considered acceptable under those circumstances would be entirely different from the previous settings.

#134
errant_knight

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ziggehunderslash wrote...

TucoBenedicto wrote...

Well, if this is actually true then this *IS* terrible design.

Only if they keep friendly fire at most levels. See, that's why.

TucoBenedicto wrote...
But then again I can't believe it, cause if you're right, then this specialization we are taling about  would be literally unusable on the highest difficulty setting, where friendly fire is turned on by default, which doesn't make any sense.
So you're probably wrong.

The last I heard the plan was for nightmare to be "technically possible" rather than balanced with success in mind. I really rather hope this is the case, because that I feel is the point of nightmare, but I can entirely see why the rules for what is considered acceptable under those circumstances would be entirely different from the previous settings.

I'll be extremely irritated if there's only friendly fire at a level that's virtually impossible to play. Tactics are pretty meaningless if you can just spray area affects over your party.

#135
Herr Uhl

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errant_knight wrote...

Edit: Okay, I have to ask one thing. This is something we can not use, right?


I don't think so. You still target one creature, just that you do damage to things close as well (basic attack). I think that it is very limited for S&B warriors, being more of a 2H thing.

Haven't seen enough or played to see a difference though, just speculating.

#136
Leonia

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Have they completely ruled out FF for hard mode yet? I keep seeing nightmare being discussed and wasn't sure if we knew one way or the other on that front. I'd prefer to play hard level over nightmare for my first playthrough (if it is similar to the difficulty structure from Origins) but if FF is on nighmare-only then I guess I'll just have to suck it up.

#137
Ziggeh

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errant_knight wrote...

Tactics are pretty meaningless if you can just spray area affects over your party.

And again, I feel that position is based on a combat system that isn't the one in DA2.

We know they are adding other elements, so claiming a lack of depth is an assumption based on ignorance.

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 18 décembre 2010 - 03:56 .


#138
Wulfram

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leonia42 wrote...

Have they completely ruled out FF for hard mode yet? I keep seeing nightmare being discussed and wasn't sure if we knew one way or the other on that front. I'd prefer to play hard level over nightmare for my first playthrough (if it is similar to the difficulty structure from Origins) but if FF is on nighmare-only then I guess I'll just have to suck it up.


I think all we've got to go on is this post from Peter Thomas which says

Currently friendly fire is only active on Nightmare difficulty.

Modifié par Wulfram, 18 décembre 2010 - 03:55 .


#139
Aermas

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Just because they added more doesn't mean they should get rid of the old. War would be done a lot differently if we could just launch artillery when our troops are still in the area.

#140
errant_knight

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Herr Uhl wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Edit: Okay, I have to ask one thing. This is something we can not use, right?


I don't think so. You still target one creature, just that you do damage to things close as well (basic attack). I think that it is very limited for S&B warriors, being more of a 2H thing.

Haven't seen enough or played to see a difference though, just speculating.

 That just makes no sense. Hopefully, you're right about it being limited for a S&S warrior, since that's what I like to play. I'm already disinclined to play rogues with all the new jumpy-jumpy, or even have them around. I don't want warriors added to that, especially S&S

#141
Ziggeh

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errant_knight wrote...

That just makes no sense. Hopefully, you're right about it being limited for a S&S warrior, since that's what I like to play. I'm already disinclined to play rogues with all the new jumpy-jumpy, or even have them around. I don't want warriors added to that, especially S&S

Sorry, yes, when I said spec, I mean 2 handed warrior. I've less sure about sword and board, but was under the impression that was largely single target.

#142
Ziggeh

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Aermas wrote...

Just because they added more doesn't mean they should get rid of the old

I've been waiting two years to use this in conversation, so thanks:

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

#143
errant_knight

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ziggehunderslash wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Tactics are pretty meaningless if you can just spray area affects over your party.

And again, I feel that position is based on a combat system that isn't the one in DA2.

We know they are adding other elements, so claiming a lack of depth is an assumption based on ignorance.

I never said that it wouldn't work within it's own context. Just that I find it as silly as all the flipping from the rogues and the weapon twirling. I probably should have phrased it differently, though, and said that it would remove an element that I find integral to a sense of realism in tactics rather than that it makes them meaningless.

#144
Aermas

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ziggehunderslash wrote...

Aermas wrote...

Just because they added more doesn't mean they should get rid of the old

I've been waiting two years to use this in conversation, so thanks:

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Are you supporting or attacking my argument with the Rooster Clause?

#145
Maconbar

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ziggehunderslash wrote...

Aermas wrote...

Just because they added more doesn't mean they should get rid of the old

I've been waiting two years to use this in conversation, so thanks:

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.


I don't think that you are using this correctly.

#146
Amioran

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TucoBenedicto wrote...
Yes, surely it is, cause as I've already pointed you're totally clueless, despise how hard you try to act baldly.


How not, in fact it shows. You stated that it had been done a lot of times already, yet you were unable to backup your statement. You continue to don't understand that it's not just a matter of player skill also if it is obvious and ever an aomeba would understand that. You still continue pretending that's easy to do yet nobody ever done that before but still you don't either get this simple fact.

Yes, I have no clue, you on the contrary do, how strange however that facts proves you wrong. Do you like to think myself clueless and you an expert on the matter? Go on, be my guest. I'm not against being deluded if this is what makes one good.

TucoBenedicto wrote...
FF ON -> Paying attention about how do you place and move your men on the battliefield, moving them accordling to the powers you ar going to use, etc.
FF OFF -> totally ignoring displacement of your troops and caring just about who must target what.


Yes, it's that easy. Why don't you try it yourself?. Again, do a mod and prove that it's an easy thing to do. Probably you know more than all the other devs and people that tried it already. I already told you (and also David said so, oh right, he did it just because they are lazy) why it's not that simple, you continue to overlook just what you don't like. As I said, you can continue doing it if you like, would that change the fact that you clearly don't understand nothing of what you are talking about? No.

TucoBenedicto wrote...
It's probably more about HOW do you play the game than any other setting.


An rpg is not an fps. For the now 100th time already, player skill is not the only parameter having to do with playing an rpg.

TucoBenedicto wrote...
And that's the point: it shouln't. That's the main fault about many mainstream developers, they still think they have to make games which are appealing to *everyone*, so they aim for the lowest common denominator instead of aiming for people who love the genre.


Whoever said the contrary?  The "everyone" doesn't mean every people either those who don't like the genre, but players that play the game. Since even between them there are many differences a game should be made in a way that if you add a toggle the same should work in all cases, with all the different behaviours taken in consideration. It's not that hard to understand.

TucoBenedicto wrote...
It doesn't matter if you are going to rebeat this bull**** 10000 times, it still deeply untrue.
Even only the fact that you can raise or lower the difficulty setting and turn FF on or off just by doing that is the obvious proof that you are wrong.
If it was that big deal to handle you shouldn't have an option in the first place, not even linked to various difficulty levels.


Again completely avoiding what you don't like to hear. I always said to you that changing levels don't solve the issue, but instead aggravate it, since the changes in the range of difficulty are exponentially increased in unpredictable ways, so you cannot mathematically ascertain them to create a system that could make what you say. FF is tied to difficulty because devs can balance the parameters within that context. If you change the context the paramaters change and the change in difficulty doesn't follow a linear route as it does within an already set context (as in the case of FF tied to difficulty).

TucoBenedicto wrote...
And honestly, do you actually think that difficulty settings can work only in preset levels?
What about all these games which allows you to set the challenge tuning any single parameter?
What about ToEE, JA2, Space Rangers 2? King's Bounty, etc?


They change single parameters within the already estabilished setting. The context is invaried. An FF toggle will instead change the context. The paramters you speak about are, so, not altering changes in the root, they are applied above it. Another proof that you have no idea of what you are babbling about. You don't either understand the difference between these two things.

TucoBenedicto wrote...
Despise not being confident with modding, cause it would be ****ing stupid and pointless?


Same as how it is pointless for someone that doesn't either know how to keep a pencil in hand to criticize a painting, yet you continue trying to argue something you clearly don't have a clue on how it can be done. Really, sometimes it would be better to talk about things you have at last a minimal knowledge on the matter at hand, or it would be better to just say nothing. Making hypothesis can be fun in a forum, but will only make you look silly elsewhere.

TucoBenedicto wrote...
Even playing at the lowest difficulty FF is the MAIN thing I would not going to renounce.
Anyway, even if I would do it, how could that be in any way more unbalanced than any other lower difficulty setting?
You are just blabbing nonsense in a very pompous and self-confident way, but that doesn't make your arguments any better.


I'm self confident just because I know of what I talk about differently from you. You just insist on talking about something that you clearly have no idea on how difficult it is to implement as it is was a banality, continuing to consider just what you want, creating fantastical scenarios that aren't tied to anything of concrete and yet you insist on being an expert. You know, either Discorides said "try to talk sense in a fool and he will think you foolish" many years before Christ. As you see some things never changes.

TucoBenedicto wrote...
How can anyone brag about that? Incidentally I know that software house and, jesus, you guys never ever delivered an half decent game. may god forgive Carlà..


Actually we made many very good games in the past, some of them even received prizes. Again total evidence of being someone with poor knowledge. And, apart this, either if it was as you said, I at last have some knowledge of what I'm talking about, obviously. You probably don't either know how a game is being made so apart hearing your fantastic theories on how easy is to do this or that you have nothing else.

TucoBenedicto wrote...
No. they aren't. FF ON -> just stay out of AOE damage spells. How could it be any more simple?


Yes, it's that easy. Stay out of AOE it's the solution. How stupid devs are, damn. They cannot think an elaborate thing as this. This was the solution, how can devs be so idiot? It was so easy it seems unbeliveable... wait, in fact it is.

Listen, I'm done. I already lost too much time trying to make you at last open a bit your mind to try to comprehend that the matter is not as simple as it look at first sight. You can continue thinking yourself an expert and think every other dev an idiot (just because there's not either a party rpg that have done this in the past, obviously everyone is an idiot out there) because they cannot implement very simple things if you want, it's not my concern. I repeated myself too much already and I don't like it at all.

#147
Ziggeh

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Maconbar wrote...

I don't think that you are using this correctly.

Probably not, because I didn't suggest it was after, but like I say, I like to crowbar it into conversations. Like the word "plinth". I find it pleasing to say.

But he's making the assumption that one is caused by the other when they're unrelated.

****** hoc ergo propter hoc would be more appropriate, but doesn't have the same alliteration.

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 18 décembre 2010 - 04:18 .


#148
Ziggeh

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errant_knight wrote...
 I probably should have phrased it differently, though, and said that it would remove an element that I find integral to a sense of realism in tactics rather than that it makes them meaningless.

Ah, well, realism isn't an argument that you can take very far either, though I do understand what you mean.

#149
Aermas

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ziggehunderslash wrote...

Maconbar wrote...

I don't think that you are using this correctly.

Probably not, because I didn't suggest it was after, but like I say, I like to crowbar it into conversations. Like the word "plinth". I find it pleasing to say.

But he's making the assumption that one is caused by the other when they're unrelated.

****** hoc ergo propter hoc would be more appropriate, but doesn't have the same alliteration.


It still doesn't apply. I'm just saying that the new things that they have added do not necessarily equal the losses that they have made.

#150
Ziggeh

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Aermas wrote...

I'm just saying that the new things that they have added do not necessarily equal the losses that they have made.

Ah, well, that makes more sense of it, and you're right, of course. But thats not to say they won't.

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 18 décembre 2010 - 04:28 .