Yrkoon wrote...
If they were simply rebels trying to violently take back the Reach, I'd have no problems sympathizing with them because they do have a case.
But... they're quite a bit more than that, aren't they. They consort with Hagravens, and they kidnap children, and really, how is anyone who's trying to pick between right and wrong supposed to see such people as Right?
Yrkoon wrote...
If they were simply rebels trying to violently take back the Reach, I'd have no problems sympathizing with them because they do have a case.TobiTobsen wrote...
Speaking of the Forsworn: I would be interested to know what you think of the conflict in the Reach. Who's "right", who's "wrong" in your opinion? Forsworn or Silver-Blood, or the bigger conflict Nords vs. Reachmen?
But... they're quite a bit more than that, aren't they. They do rituals with Hagravens, and they kidnap children, and they attack you on sight instead of even bothering to ask you to choose sides. How is anyone who's trying to pick between right and wrong supposed to see such people as Right?
That said, I like looking at forsworn chicks, so Forsworn aren't All bad.
Modifié par TobiTobsen, 28 août 2012 - 12:34 .
That guy is one of those patronizing old-time anthropologist types who think the primitives are really all noble, peace-loving hippies once you get to know them. The violent history of the Forsworn is nothing new, it goes back to the 1E and the Legend of Red Eagle. That's when they first began their pact with the hagravens and they believe that Red Eagle will come back only when they've repaid every debt of the Reachmen in blood. That's the context for Madanach saying he's going to paint the walls of Markarth with Nord blood.TobiTobsen wrote...
Well, according to the "Madmen of the Reach" book their reign was peaceful. Only the most violent opposers of the "new" old ways were put down. Nothing unusual after a change of leadership.
That was the jarl, BTW, and the timing doesn't work out that it was right after the retaking of the city. If you talk to Igmund, he does have a "kill em all and let the gods sort em out" attitude toward the Forsworn. His own father was killed trying to negotiate with them, though.If Braigs story is true they were also outrageously mistreated when Ulfric reconquered the city. Beheading the daughter that asks for mercy for her father and imprison him anyway? What's up with that? The rest of the Forsworn probably suffered a similar fates.
I don't think it's very grey. Not all Reachmen are Forsworn, and the more peaceable Reachmen seem to deplore them as much as anyone else. Bothela says they "break her heart" and the stable hand says that it's a good thing not all their rituals were allowed to come back. It shouldn't be any surprise that Bretons and Reachmen would be no more happy about a group that kidnaps travelers for daedric sacrifices than Nords are.I'm not saying that I support how they do what they do, just that I can somehow understand it. The conflict ist not as black and white as it seems, in my opinion. More like grey vs. black or even grey vs. grey.
Modifié par Addai67, 28 août 2012 - 12:47 .
blaidfiste wrote...
Epic Dawnguard final battle. Contains a few scenes from the real ending so don't watch if you haven't finished DG yet.
Modifié par jackofalltrades456, 28 août 2012 - 01:18 .
I feel pretty comfortable saying that the disciples of Boethiah and Molag Bal qualify as evil. The princes themselves are more complicated. The Forsworn, Dark Brotherhood, Morag Tong, and a few others might not be evil, but they're close enough.Giggles_Manically wrote...
No group is good or bad in Skyrim.
The only "good" group is probably Bards.
But even then they commit fraud on their first quest.
Guest_greengoron89_*
Modifié par greengoron89, 28 août 2012 - 04:23 .
greengoron89 wrote...
Oh, and there's of course the Thalmor - probably about as bad as the Mythic Dawn, or soon will be considering their long term goals.
Modifié par Laser Beam, 28 août 2012 - 04:33 .
Giggles_Manically wrote...
Seriously...how have I NEVER used the Fury shout before?
I mean...it just is so useful.
Hunting? Fury a deer and bring it to you.
Mobs? Fury some mooks and wittle them down.
Lulz? Fury a chicken!
Honestly its awesome!
I never really used Illusion before.
Nice case of taking what I said out of context there. I don't really want to continue this useless discussion, but I hate it when people do that to me.Yrkoon wrote...
So do I. Most people do.Olaf_de_IJsbeer wrote...
She behaves differently towards men than she does towards women
And can we employ a bit of perspective here? it's ONE line we're talking about, not some pattern of behavior. And it's One line that doesn't, in any way, disparage or criticize men in the slightest, so I'm not quite sure where "sexism" comes into play
Modifié par Olaf_de_IJsbeer, 28 août 2012 - 07:17 .
Addai67 wrote...
That guy is one of those patronizing old-time anthropologist types who think the primitives are really all noble, peace-loving hippies once you get to know them. The violent history of the Forsworn is nothing new, it goes back to the 1E and the Legend of Red Eagle. That's when they first began their pact with the hagravens and they believe that Red Eagle will come back only when they've repaid every debt of the Reachmen in blood. That's the context for Madanach saying he's going to paint the walls of Markarth with Nord blood.TobiTobsen wrote...
Well, according to the "Madmen of the Reach" book their reign was peaceful. Only the most violent opposers of the "new" old ways were put down. Nothing unusual after a change of leadership.
Madanach also says "we drove all the Nords out." He doesn't say "only those who deserved it."That was the jarl, BTW, and the timing doesn't work out that it was right after the retaking of the city. If you talk to Igmund, he does have a "kill em all and let the gods sort em out" attitude toward the Forsworn. His own father was killed trying to negotiate with them, though.If Braigs story is true they were also outrageously mistreated when Ulfric reconquered the city. Beheading the daughter that asks for mercy for her father and imprison him anyway? What's up with that? The rest of the Forsworn probably suffered a similar fates.
I don't think it's very grey. Not all Reachmen are Forsworn, and the more peaceable Reachmen seem to deplore them as much as anyone else. Bothela says they "break her heart" and the stable hand says that it's a good thing not all their rituals were allowed to come back. It shouldn't be any surprise that Bretons and Reachmen would be no more happy about a group that kidnaps travelers for daedric sacrifices than Nords are.I'm not saying that I support how they do what they do, just that I can somehow understand it. The conflict ist not as black and white as it seems, in my opinion. More like grey vs. black or even grey vs. grey.
Modifié par TobiTobsen, 28 août 2012 - 08:07 .
TobiTobsen wrote...
Meh... fair points. I probably suffer from the same kind of "Stockholm-syndrome" as Laser Beam with the Thalmor.
Sympathy for the devil!
Funnily enough I have absolutly no sympathy for the Stormcloaks, who have a similar goal and try to achieve it without the whole genocide part. Sounds like hypocrisy on my part. Or maybe Madanach is just better in guilt tripping me compared to Ulfric.
Guest_greengoron89_*
ErichHartmann wrote...
Hearthfire DLC Trailer? I dunno if it's real or not.
www.youtube.com/watch
Modifié par TobiTobsen, 28 août 2012 - 02:59 .
Guest_greengoron89_*
Modifié par happy_daiz, 28 août 2012 - 03:11 .
Modifié par legion999, 28 août 2012 - 03:22 .
Nords usually being the ones raping and pillaging, they don't play the sympathy card very well. That's not my motivation for being a 'Cloak at all myself. I just like the Nords and giving the empire the smackdown on their behalf is great fun. :innocent: On anyone's behalf, really. I'd be just as happy to see the Dunmer kick the empire out, if the empire hadn't already made itself scarce there. Knowing them they'll ride in to try to take over once the Dunmer have cleaned the place up on their own.TobiTobsen wrote...
Meh... fair points. I probably suffer from the same kind of "Stockholm-syndrome" as Laser Beam with the Thalmor.
Sympathy for the devil!
Funnily enough I have absolutly no sympathy for the Stormcloaks, who have a similar goal and try to achieve it without the whole genocide part. Sounds like hypocrisy on my part. Or maybe Madanach is just better in guilt tripping me compared to Ulfric.
Modifié par Addai67, 28 août 2012 - 03:23 .
Guest_greengoron89_*
legion999 wrote...
PS: It seems the comments section has devolved into a flame war. Morons.
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