37007 réponses à ce sujet

[Dutchess]

Jaison1986 wrote...

I started to play a new game recently, and just remembered how amusing the difficulty scale of this game is, unlike many other games, wich start very easy, and gets harder as you go, Skyrim is the opposite. You start as an wimp that gets easily killed by half of the enemies early on, only to become an unstopable badass later. I just stand there with my mouth wide open seing my low level character being easily killed by an dragon fire breath.

Yeah... I once got killed by a mudcrab...  How embarrassing.

[LPPrince]

A mudcrab? Christ, that warrants an explanation.

[HoonDing]

Well the big ones are actually pretty tough.

[Yrkoon]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

On the whole this review is exactly how I feel about Skyrim currently, and I'm just hoping that in a few years there are mods to address these issues, or a new TES game which does

thenocturnalrambler.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/skyrim-actually-kinda-sucks.html

That review is one of the biggest piles of dung I've ever wasted 10 minutes on. I think I facepalmed about 20 times from the sheer teenage-like whining (but I lost count about halfway down). Aside from the list of factually erroneous statements the writer makes (ie. the claim there's only 2 ways to up your enchanting skill 1) enchant stuff, and 2) disenchant stuff), he also gives himself away near the bottom, thus explaining the negative nature of the entire article: He doesn't like open world games.

Behold:

A large part of this is the result of an open-world design where you can do anything at any time.

Of course, after  he says this, he goes on a rant-fest about all the terrible inherant  flaws of  Open world games. (mainly, lack of quest urgency)

This is dishonest reviewing. When you're critiquing, say, a First person shooter, praise and criticism is supposed to be based on how well/badly that game performs as a... first person shooter. You are NOT supposed to be judging the Genre itself and then laying a heap of condemnation on that game simply because its  doing that genre. Because that would be stupid. It would be like if I was reviewing Black Ops 2 and then saying: Well, this game sucks because it doesn't have  a magic/spell system

PS: this part is also worth pointing out to anyone who entertains the notion of possibly taking that review seriously:

I was also disappointed with the physics of melee combat. If you hit an enemy with your sword, it just kind of cuts right through without any feeling of impact, like it's the same animation whether you hit the target or not. Enemies don't flinch or even react to regular hits, which feels kind of lame when I'm swinging around a giant greatsword. It doesn't feel "visceral" or "intense," it just feels kind of mellow and sedated.

^this registers a 10 on the BS meter for anyone who's actually played the game. You stagger people when you swing your greatsword and hit them. They bleed, they involunarily *move*, They drop down to their knees, they get their heads chopped off.... and sometimes, depending on where the fight is taking place.... they FALL TO THEIR DEATHS....regardless of their health. That's physics. That is what this  would-be writer is telling us is absent in Skyrim.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 20 décembre 2012 - 10:33 .

[Yrkoon]

LPPrince wrote...

A mudcrab? Christ, that warrants an explanation.

Interesting note:  Mudcrabs are actually the Alphas of their immediate environment.  I've seen mudcrabs killing wolves, skeevers, Elk and bandits.  I've seen  a pack of mudcrabs taking on a bear and  killing it.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 20 décembre 2012 - 10:30 .

[Dutchess]

LPPrince wrote...

A mudcrab? Christ, that warrants an explanation.

LOL, I'm not entirely sure how it happened. I was trying to play a new Woodelf as a hunter, shooting animals with a bow. I think I shot a wolf and a mudcrab snuck up to me from behind and pinched my ankles. I was only level 3 and my bow was not doing that much damage and I didn't have that much health, and... then I died. I  think the mudcrab needed only 3 hits to kill me. I actually haven't played that character ever since.

[SpunkyMonkey]

Yrkoon wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

On the whole this review is exactly how I feel about Skyrim currently, and I'm just hoping that in a few years there are mods to address these issues, or a new TES game which does

thenocturnalrambler.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/skyrim-actually-kinda-sucks.html

That review is one of the biggest piles of dung I've ever wasted 10 minutes on. I think I facepalmed about 20 times from the sheer teenage-like whining (but I lost count about halfway down). Aside from the list of factually erroneous statements the writer makes (ie. the claim there's only 2 ways to up your enchanting skill 1) enchant stuff, and 2) disenchant stuff), he also gives himself away near the bottom, thus explaining the negative nature of the entire article: He doesn't like open world games.

Behold:

A large part of this is the result of an open-world design where you can do anything at any time.

Of course, after  he says this, he goes on a rant-fest about all the terrible inherant  flaws of  Open world games. (mainly, lack of quest urgency)

This is dishonest reviewing. When you're critiquing, say, a First person shooter, praise and criticism is supposed to be based on how well/badly that game performs as a... first person shooter. You are NOT supposed to be judging the Genre itself and then laying a heap of condemnation on that game simply because its  doing that genre. Because that would be stupid. It would be like if I was reviewing Black Ops 2 and then saying: Well, this game sucks because it doesn't have  a magic/spell system

PS: this part is also worth pointing out to anyone who entertains the notion of possibly taking that review seriously:

I was also disappointed with the physics of melee combat. If you hit an enemy with your sword, it just kind of cuts right through without any feeling of impact, like it's the same animation whether you hit the target or not. Enemies don't flinch or even react to regular hits, which feels kind of lame when I'm swinging around a giant greatsword. It doesn't feel "visceral" or "intense," it just feels kind of mellow and sedated.

^this registers a 10 on the BS meter for anyone who's actually played the game. You stagger people when you swing your greatsword and hit them. They bleed, they involunarily *move*, They drop down to their knees, they get their heads chopped off.... and sometimes, depending on where the fight is taking place.... they FALL TO THEIR DEATHS....regardless of their health. That's physics. That is what this  would-be writer is telling us is absent in Skyrim.

Easy tiger.

I can honestly say that I agreed with the majority of his points. I like open world games, I absolutely loved Fallout 3 and Morrowind, but agree with a lot of things which he has to say there.

Skyrim, to me, feels like an interactive tool which gamers can use to mess about in an open environment. It doesn't grab me at all, and for people who don't have hours to throw away doing "cool" or "neat" things Skyrim is just an empty experience at present.

I half-agree with what he says on combat too - it's waaaay better than Oblivion, light-years ahead of Morrowind, but still feels a bit lacking. there is definitely a better feel, and the impact feels better too, but it still feels a tad flimsy overall for me.

These are just personal opinions, but I really don't think he hates Skyrim and is trying to do it down, he like yourself is just giving an opinion on the game.

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 20 décembre 2012 - 11:14 .

[Yrkoon]

No no.  lets not be hiding behind the "It's  just personal opinion" line, when we know, full well, that there's a LOT more going on here.

-Saying that  melee combat physics doesn't exist in the game, when it does, in an obvious and graphically demonstrative manner is NOT a personal opinion. It's a false claim.

-Claiming that every single perk in every single skill tree is just a statistical modifier, when any *honest*, *objective-minded* player can show you several perks in every single tree that AREN'T, is not a matter of opinion. It's a false claim.

-Claiming that there are only 2 ways to advance a specific skill, when there are 5 ways to advance it...is not an opinion. It's a false claim.

-Claiming that there is *literally* nothing to do in the game world in between map points (his words, not mine), when in fact, there's a HUGE list of wandering encounters to engage in, enemies to fight, quests to pick up, Dragons to battle, treasure maps to follow, alchemy ingredients to pick, Ore to mine etc.....is not an opinion. it's a false claim. It's also further proof that this entire review is written by someone who simply dislikes open worlds, and wishes this game was a short cinematic action thing, like Dragon Age or Witcher 2 (which are different types of games -  which must keep their narratives tight to succeed , which means open spaces are deliberately removed for pacing purposes)

Why am I mentioning all this? Am I just nit-picking?   No. I'm bringing it up because  1) this article isn't even a review.  it'sjust a garden variety message board post pretending to be a review.  and 2) because  it's really *really* easy to take a masterpiece and then assign it a bunch of flaws it doesn't actually have in order to conclude that it's a flawed POS that "sucks". That's...not how any professional reviewer operates however. and this guy isn't doing  anyone any good.   A fence sitter who's  contemplating buying Skyrim for Christmas is going to be Misled by something like this.   No, this 'author".... He  should just stick to  spouting his nonsense on message boards, like  me and you.  But of  course if he does, everyone will see him and call him out for what he is:  A troll. lol

But where were we? Oh yeah.  The review.

Next  we've got plain old author Hypocricy.. He criticizes Skyrim for its laundry-list of soulless fetch quests that lack the element of choice. Ok. On its own, this can actually be a *valid* criticism.... right up until you read the comments section for the article, where he gives a short list of RPGs he absolutely loved. And this list includes..... Planescape Torment. Now, don't get me wrong, Planescape torment is indeed  one of the best RPGs ever made..... It's also filled to capacity with these exact same types of filler,  brainless, soulless fetch quests which take up the  majority of that game's quest log as well.

And lastly, I *get it*. The correct way to bash a game is to criticize every part of it. And that's what this guy does. Now you might be thinking to yourself: "wait a minute... everything is covered here except the mustical score" right? Wrong. This guy criticizes the music.   But he runs into a slight problem:   he can't seem to find anything to criticize the music about so he does what any ranter does:  He improvises by giving us an almost  completely  incoherant  argument.    He shamelessly writes up a paragrah where he ADMITS that he can't cite any  of its flaws, so he just calls the music "indescribably generic"... whatever the hell that's supposed to mean.  Then he   leaves it at that.     I mean... Really?    (yes.  really) LOL

Modifié par Yrkoon, 20 décembre 2012 - 01:03 .

[SpunkyMonkey]

Yrkoon wrote...

No no.  lets not be hiding behind the "It's  just personal opinion" line, when we know, full well, that there's a LOT more going on here.

-Saying that  melee combat physics doesn't exist in the game, when it does, in an obvious and graphically demonstrative manner is NOT a personal opinion. It's a false claim.

-Claiming that every single perk in every single skill tree is just a statistical modifier, when any *honest*, *objective-minded* player can show you several perks in every single tree that AREN'T, is not a matter of opinion. It's a false claim.

-Claiming that there are only 2 ways to advance a specific skill, when there are 5 ways to advance it...is not an opinion. It's a false claim.

-Claiming that there is *literally* nothing to do in the game world in between map points (his words, not mine), when in fact, there's a HUGE list of wandering encounters to engage in, enemies to fight, quests to pick up, Dragons to battle, treasure maps to follow, alchemy ingredients to pick, Ore to mine etc.....is not an opinion. it's a false claim. It's also further proof that this entire review is written by someone who simply dislikes open worlds, and wishes this game was a short cinematic action thing, like Dragon Age or Witcher 2 (which are different types of games -  which must keep their narratives tight to succeed , which means open spaces are deliberately removed for pacing purposes)

Why am I mentioning all this? Am I just nit-picking?   No. I'm bringing it up because  1) this article isn't even a review.  it'sjust a garden variety message board post pretending to be a review.  and 2) because  it's really *really* easy to take a masterpiece and then assign it a bunch of flaws it doesn't actually have in order to conclude that it's a flawed POS that "sucks". That's...not how any professional reviewer operates however. and this guy isn't doing  anyone any good.   A fence sitter who's  contemplating buying Skyrim for Christmas is going to be Misled by something like this.   No, this 'author".... He  should just stick to  spouting his nonsense on message boards, like  me and you.  But of  course if he does, everyone will see him and call him out for what he is:  A troll. lol

But where were we? Oh yeah.  The review.

Next  we've got plain old author Hypocricy.. He criticizes Skyrim for its laundry-list of soulless fetch quests that lack the element of choice. Ok. On its own, this can actually be a *valid* criticism.... right up until you read the comments section for the article, where he gives a short list of RPGs he absolutely loved. And this list includes..... Planescape Torment. Now, don't get me wrong, Planescape torment is indeed  one of the best RPGs ever made..... It's also filled to capacity with these exact same types of filler,  brainless, soulless fetch quests which take up the  majority of that game's quest log as well.

And lastly, I *get it*. The correct way to bash a game is to criticize every part of it. And that's what this guy does. Now you might be thinking to yourself: "wait a minute... everything is covered here except the mustical score" right? Wrong. This guy criticizes the music.   But he runs into a slight problem:   he can't seem to find anything to criticize the music about so he does what any ranter does:  He improvises by giving us an almost  completely  incoherant  argument.    He shamelessly writes up a paragrah where he ADMITS that he can't cite any  of its flaws, so he just calls the music "indescribably generic"... whatever the hell that's supposed to mean.  Then he   leaves it at that.     I mean... Really?    (yes.  really) LOL

Just out of interest, what flaws does he highlight which you do think are valid?

[Elhanan]

Kinda agree with Yrkoon; at a brief glance, that review is erronous and often misleading.

While I cannot speculate on the writers exact motives, it seems clear that he is unable to cast aside bad feelsings he holds for the TES series. A good deal of space at the front of the piece is spent saying that Skyrim is better than the last two outings, then proceeds to bash Skyrim. Then he does so by apparently offering opinion as fact.

Example: Skyrim UI is absolutely terrible - an opinion that many hold, yet I have 1350+ hrs using it that seems to suggest that it is fine. I need larger font for my weakened eyes, and if we were all subjected to SkyUI, then I would have had to quit until a mod fixed it well enough for play. Simply stating that another modded UI has perks he prefers over the Vanilla, or that he makes errors when using it are not objective facts. Sorry.

This is followed by a list of his supposed encounters between map markers, and lists twelve. Twelve ain't nothing, and some seem curious as my experiences in some of those same encounters differs (eg; criminal giving me item is almsot always followed by a guard, kids sell map indicators, hunters sell food, etc). Bias seems to be showing. Etc.

P.S. Marriage and romance are poor aspects of Skyrim I agree with, but this is counted as a minor issue on both his list and mine; not a major contention. The vast part of this article is apparently bogus, esp when stating that ALL quests 'suck', and then has a pic of Blackreach to illustrate his dislike for an included fetch quest. Hint: such quests, Food, Resting, Crafting, etc are optional; don't have to use them.

Modifié par Elhanan, 20 décembre 2012 - 02:57 .

[Joy Divison]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

Just out of interest, what flaws does he highlight which you do think are valid?

1) The interface sucks is the only critique the author makes which can be substatiated objectively.

All of his other points are misleading claims based on erronious information of personal opinion.  That being said, I would agree with him that for me, 2) Skyrim does get too easy once you get to high levels 3) Dragon fights are more tedious than dnagerous (though not for the reasons the author states...its not bc/ the dragons chase rabbits, it is because they aren't as terrorizing as they should be) and 4) the Civil War questline should be been more imaginative.  Although i agree with them, these are not the universal truths the author claims because they are applicable to me (i.e. not everyone) and based on my ideal of what the game ought to be (i.e. my opinion).

Skyrim has many many flaws that can be critiqued honestly, objectively, and on its own terms.  It's not that hard really. 

Modifié par Joy Divison, 20 décembre 2012 - 02:51 .

[happy_daiz]

I can't even read that full blog post, tbh. It's pretty apparent within the first couple of paragraphs that the guy is completely biased, and is spouting vitriol under the guise of giving a "fair" critique.

To call it a review is insulting, as this kid only played for 130 hours. Srsly? I'm probably closer to 2000 hours than 1000 at this point. My shortest "full" playthrough is just over 300 hours. I'd have to think my, or any of the regulars to this thread's, opinion would be more credible than this poseur's.

Mayhap if the kid used facts as his weapon, instead of opinions masquerading as truths, he'd feel more impact in the melee combat he was complaining about.


But I digress. I'm just a bit punchy since my flight out was cancelled. Waa.

Modifié par happy_daiz, 20 décembre 2012 - 03:24 .

[Elhanan]

If one tends to build to max a certain weapon type, then it is understandable that continued usage into the higher lvls would become easier (ie; taking Imp Crits, advanced Power Attacks, etc); seems that this is why this path was taken. But one does not have to max the weapons, or continue to use them. A Master archer may kill easily, but that same fight may take a while using lesser weapons or spells; a trend I am seening currently.

[Addai]

Why waste time even reading less discussing what boils down to "I played more than most games give over several playthroughs and now I'm bored." Bully for him. Move on.

[ME_Fan]

Anyway... check out this screen I got. Best I could do, but can you see what I tried to recreate!

Modifié par ME_Fan, 20 décembre 2012 - 03:44 .

[Elhanan]

^ Love that shot! Bleak Falls Barrow has become a monumental landmark to me, as well as a memorable icon of this game. Thanks for posting!

[Captain Crash]

That pretty decent shot. Good job. I just wish there was a Dragon at Bleak Falls Barrow, I've never seen one there and it would look so great.

[Reznore57]

I hate dwemer ruins :s
They are really well made , but i just hate them.At first , I thought the falmer were the ex dwemer , then I found out about the falmer being elves (well they're all elves..) taking refuge with "dwarf" ...and the dwemer ask them to go blind and turn them into slaves...

I went to BlackReach , it's so pretty but I hate it too.Got lost , lost Farkas in there somehow ,spend a few hours looking for nirnroot and my companion.

Anyway I also ran into Sanguine in a dungeon full of mage , he didn't talk to my pc , I still have no idea what the hell he was doing there.

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It seems that vampires can procreate; at least the men can with a non-vampiric woman: Agronak gro-Malog was the progeny of Lord Lovidicus with his Orc servant Luktuv.

Ah, a Dhampir. I wonder if the Dhampirs of Elder Scrolls have any powers?

Argonak didn't seem to have any special abilities, aside from being an excellent fighter. I'm not sure if that would be the case with all vampire progeny, however. The Vampire Lords, for instance, are different from their Cyrodillic counterparts. It could depend on the clan of vampire.

Yrkoon wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

As for lycantrophy, I imagine having a child...

See, My mind can't even get past this part without raising questions.

If werewolves are mating, wouldn't they produce a litter, rather than just "A child"?  So we're looking at 5 or 6 children in one go.  As a warrior and  a *leader* of the companions who's also tasked with, you know, saving  the world from  apocolyptic doom,  my  schedule book is already  filled.   I just can't see myself having  that kind of time to raise a friggin pack of babies.

I'm starting to remember the pregnant werewolf giving birth in The Howling 3: Marsupials.

Yrkoon wrote...

Also,  semi-off topic, don't Argonians lay eggs? 

I believe so, since the Saxhleel (the name of the Argonian people in their tongue, which means the "People of the Root") are referred to as "hatchlings" when they are young. It's speculated by some fans that they might be able to change gender, given the reference to their gender as their "life-phases."

[Cyberarmy]

 
My little kitty thief, happy as ever...



This game makes me to go see this auras in real life :/




Happiest couple in the world!

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

@TEWR: the dragonblood is a divine gift given to mortals by Akatosh*according to Skyrim* not a genetic mutation

Wasn't the Septim line composed of Dragonborns, up until Martin Septim's sacrifice?

Technically, they weren't, since the last Septims aren't descended down from Tiber Septim (who was declared to be Dragonborn when he was Hjalti Early-Beard by the Greybeards). The Septim rulers descended from Tiber Septim's brother Agnorith, but that bloodline perished with the demise of Pelagius I, with all the subsequent rulers since Kintyra simply taking on the name 'Septim.' Martin and his father weren't descended from the last known Dragonborn, and they were only Septims in name.

It's easy to think otherwise because of what Grandmaster Jauffre and the other Blades say in Oblivion about the Septims being Dragonborn and the Amulet of Kings, but their dialogue is misleading; the Blades were incorrect to state that the Amulet of Kings can only be worn by those who are 'Dragonborn.' The idea that the Septims are Dragonborn is ceremonial, since the Amulet of Kings can be worn by anyone with 'royal blood' (as opposed to those who are Dragonborn), as we see with Mankar Camoran wearing it before he goes to Paradise (which makes sense, as he's the royal son of Camoran Usurper), and the Remans wore the amulet generations before Tiber Septim even found it.

In contrast, the protagonist of Skyrim is a genuine Dragonborn who can use the Voice.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 20 décembre 2012 - 07:36 .

[Barbarossa2010]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

No no.  lets not be hiding behind the "It's  just personal opinion" line, when we know, full well, that there's a LOT more going on here.

-Saying that  melee combat physics doesn't exist in the game, when it does, in an obvious and graphically demonstrative manner is NOT a personal opinion. It's a false claim.

-Claiming that every single perk in every single skill tree is just a statistical modifier, when any *honest*, *objective-minded* player can show you several perks in every single tree that AREN'T, is not a matter of opinion. It's a false claim.

-Claiming that there are only 2 ways to advance a specific skill, when there are 5 ways to advance it...is not an opinion. It's a false claim.

-Claiming that there is *literally* nothing to do in the game world in between map points (his words, not mine), when in fact, there's a HUGE list of wandering encounters to engage in, enemies to fight, quests to pick up, Dragons to battle, treasure maps to follow, alchemy ingredients to pick, Ore to mine etc.....is not an opinion. it's a false claim. It's also further proof that this entire review is written by someone who simply dislikes open worlds, and wishes this game was a short cinematic action thing, like Dragon Age or Witcher 2 (which are different types of games -  which must keep their narratives tight to succeed , which means open spaces are deliberately removed for pacing purposes)

Why am I mentioning all this? Am I just nit-picking?   No. I'm bringing it up because  1) this article isn't even a review.  it'sjust a garden variety message board post pretending to be a review.  and 2) because  it's really *really* easy to take a masterpiece and then assign it a bunch of flaws it doesn't actually have in order to conclude that it's a flawed POS that "sucks". That's...not how any professional reviewer operates however. and this guy isn't doing  anyone any good.   A fence sitter who's  contemplating buying Skyrim for Christmas is going to be Misled by something like this.   No, this 'author".... He  should just stick to  spouting his nonsense on message boards, like  me and you.  But of  course if he does, everyone will see him and call him out for what he is:  A troll. lol

But where were we? Oh yeah.  The review.

Next  we've got plain old author Hypocricy.. He criticizes Skyrim for its laundry-list of soulless fetch quests that lack the element of choice. Ok. On its own, this can actually be a *valid* criticism.... right up until you read the comments section for the article, where he gives a short list of RPGs he absolutely loved. And this list includes..... Planescape Torment. Now, don't get me wrong, Planescape torment is indeed  one of the best RPGs ever made..... It's also filled to capacity with these exact same types of filler,  brainless, soulless fetch quests which take up the  majority of that game's quest log as well.

And lastly, I *get it*. The correct way to bash a game is to criticize every part of it. And that's what this guy does. Now you might be thinking to yourself: "wait a minute... everything is covered here except the mustical score" right? Wrong. This guy criticizes the music.   But he runs into a slight problem:   he can't seem to find anything to criticize the music about so he does what any ranter does:  He improvises by giving us an almost  completely  incoherant  argument.    He shamelessly writes up a paragrah where he ADMITS that he can't cite any  of its flaws, so he just calls the music "indescribably generic"... whatever the hell that's supposed to mean.  Then he   leaves it at that.     I mean... Really?    (yes.  really) LOL

Just out of interest, what flaws does he highlight which you do think are valid?

Well I can agree with him on the UI.  SkyUI is really a great fix for that.  Other than that, I pretty much hold an opposing opinion on virtually everything he thinks is an issue.  So Skyrim held his interest for 130 hours?  BFD.  I wasn't even hitting my stride at 130 hours.  I've been in Skyrim for approaching a thousand hours, and find very little to agree with in his criticisms...in fact, it's rather obvious that he is objectively wrong in a number of his observations.  Melee combat and stagger are just one example. I use it with great effect.  He's obviously looking for a different experience than I, and appears more to be grinding an axe against open-world games, which to me, is just incredibly dopey...and obvious. 

[TEWR]

Yrkoon wrote...

mainly, lack of quest urgency)

See, I never really understood how people could say there isn't quest urgency in Skyrim. It may not be smacking you in the face all the time with a "GO HERE!!!" icon, but that doesn't mean it's not there.

I'd say that everytime a Dragon attacks you -- tedious or not -- that reminds you of the main quest. I'd say that anytime you come across buildings/journals that talk about the Dragons, that reminds you of the quest.

That's the beauty of Skyrim, if you think about it. It reminds you of the main quest in the way a real world scenario might. The world is reminding you, not the game.

[Barbarossa2010]

I personally am very attracted to the fact that virtually every dungeon or Dwemer ruin you enter has its own story to tell...that is, of course if one is actually paying attention.

[blaidfiste]

 Most people here don't need Skyrim reviews but here are a few of my favorites

Modifié par blaidfiste, 20 décembre 2012 - 09:36 .