37007 réponses à ce sujet

[SpunkyMonkey]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

Well I can agree with him on the UI.  SkyUI is really a great fix for that.  Other than that, I pretty much hold an opposing opinion on virtually everything he thinks is an issue.  So Skyrim held his interest for 130 hours?  BFD.  I wasn't even hitting my stride at 130 hours.  I've been in Skyrim for approaching a thousand hours, and find very little to agree with in his criticisms...in fact, it's rather obvious that he is objectively wrong in a number of his observations.  Melee combat and stagger are just one example. I use it with great effect.  He's obviously looking for a different experience than I, and appears more to be grinding an axe against open-world games, which to me, is just incredibly dopey...and obvious. 

Do you have any of your own gripes about the game or experience itself other than the UI? I agree with a lot of his points - maybe not in the same way, but I did feel very let down by Skyrim. I'd be interested to hear your positive view on your experience with it and the flipside of that coin.

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 24 décembre 2012 - 09:19 .

[Yrkoon]

Aah yes.  Trying to extract criticism  from  the fans now, since we're  tired of  the  praise.

Ok, sure, I'll bite.  Aside from the clunky, unintuitive and sometimes buggy UI  (which is a pretty major gripe from PC users, btw, not sure why it's not enough  for you guys), I would say that Skyrim suffers a  bit too much  from  some of the  cancerous  modernization features  that we've seen afflict almost every major RPG over the past half decade or so.


Mainly:

1) Level scaling.  Not nearly as bad as it was in Oblivion, but its still there, and still manages  to make the game feel less "free"  and limitless than it should be.   In terms of  flaws that a game can have, I rank this pretty high up there.   IMO  one of the single best  features in an open world sandbox is  the  freedom to stumble into a cave or area that you're simply not ready for - where the enemies  can utterly squash you like a bug.   And with level-scaled loot, the reward for gettiing in over your head and miraculously succeeding.... is not there either.  I mean sure, in Skyrim, you could, at level 3, wander over to the giant camp near whiterun and get squashed like a bug by a Giant in one hit.  But that's  about it:  Giant camps.  Everything else -  All the caves, ruins, dungeons, forts  and other enemy camps are strictly level scaled and the loot in them is as well, meaning they can be tackled at any level and rest assured,  the precious "game balance" that Developers work so damn hard to maintain (for some reason I've still not figured out) cannot be  broken.... until  you're too high of a level to care about it anymore.  (you will never, for example, find a Daedric Greatsword  at level 3.  Ever.  Even if you beat unsurmountable odds and *earned* it.


2)  Randomized Loot.  This is a  double edged sword, and more of a design choice  than a flaw.    But IMO, randomized loot drops are best done sparingly, not:  almost every single time, with every single enemy and in every single chest, like it is in skyrim.    But again,   I see the validity for both sides of the "set vs. random" loot dispensing argument.   On the one hand there's replay value in, say, named bosses dropping something different every time you beat them, on the other hand, I like the way  loot is distributed in games like Baldur's Gate 2.  because you  can plan your builds better, and the loot doesn't feel trivilized and arbitrary.   For Example:   Firkraag Always drops   Carsomyr, so if you're a paladin, you know where you have to go, and who you have to beat.

And that's about it.  I found no other notable flaws with Skyrim.   The game is otherwise remarkably Amazing.    Genre-defining, even.     Mark my words.   All  big budget RPGs in the near to distant   future will have to contend with  being compared to Skyrim, feature by feature.   And in most cases,  they will  ultimately suffer for it.   People will  point to their dungeons and say:  "Hey, these dungeons are not nearly as cool as Skyrim's"  or  "Skyrim's music was better".  Skyrim did dragons better"....  "Skyrim  did Archery better"....  "Skyrim did Stealth Better".....  Skyrim's Alchemy System was better"  etc.  etc. 

And an important sidenote.   The trump card here, really:    Even the three flaws  I listed above are remedied with Mods....  Funny how that goes, eh.  This game has a tool kit, which means discussions like these are a moot point.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 24 décembre 2012 - 12:10 .

[blaidfiste]

ME_Fan wrote...

Weird. When I wrote that I actually wrote his name and then submitted it. Then it was changed to that. I'll try again; ****r.

Put a blank image tag between the "N" and "a" and you can write Nazir with no issues.  I've gotten used to ****r though lol.

[Elhanan]

Yrkoon wrote...

Aah yes.  Trying to extract criticism  from  the fans now, since we're  tired of  the  praise.

Ok, sure, I'll bite.  Aside from the clunky, unintuitive and sometimes buggy UI  (which is a pretty major gripe from PC users, btw, not sure why it's not enough  for you guys), I would say that Skyrim suffers a  bit too much  from  some of the  cancerous  modernization features  that we've seen afflict almost every major RPG over the past half decade or so.

Mainly:

1) Level scaling.  Not nearly as bad as it was in Oblivion, but its still there, and still manages  to make the game feel less "free"  and limitless than it should be.   In terms of  flaws that a game can have, I rank this pretty high up there.   IMO  one of the single best  features in an open world sandbox is  the  freedom to stumble into a cave or area that you're simply not ready for - where the enemies  can utterly squash you like a bug.   And with level-scaled loot, the reward for gettiing in over your head and miraculously succeeding.... is not there either.  I mean sure, in Skyrim, you could, at level 3, wander over to the giant camp near whiterun and get squashed like a bug by a Giant in one hit.  But that's  about it:  Giant camps.  Everything else -  All the caves, ruins, dungeons, forts  and other enemy camps are strictly level scaled and the loot in them is as well, meaning they can be tackled at any level and rest assured,  the precious "game balance" that Developers work so damn hard to maintain (for some reason I've still not figured out) cannot be  broken.... until  you're too high of a level to care about it anymore.  (you will never, for example, find a Daedric Greatsword  at level 3.  Ever.  Even if you beat unsurmountable odds and *earned* it.


2)  Randomized Loot.  This is a  double edged sword, and more of a design choice  than a flaw.    But IMO, randomized loot drops are best done sparingly, not:  almost every single time, with every single enemy and in every single chest, like it is in skyrim.    But again,   I see the validity for both sides of the "set vs. random" loot dispensing argument.   On the one hand there's replay value in, say, named bosses dropping something different every time you beat them, on the other hand, I like the way  loot is distributed in games like Baldur's Gate 2.  because you  can plan your builds better, and the loot doesn't feel trivilized and arbitrary.   For Example:   Firkraag Always drops   Carsomyr, so if you're a paladin, you know where you have to go, and who you have to beat.

And that's about it.  I found no other notable flaws with Skyrim.   The game is otherwise remarkably Amazing.    Genre-defining, even.     Mark my words.   All  big budget RPGs in the near to distant   future will have to contend with  being compared to Skyrim, feature by feature.   And in most cases,  they will  ultimately suffer for it.   People will  point to their dungeons and say:  "Hey, these dungeons are not nearly as cool as Skyrim's"  or  "Skyrim's music was better".  Skyrim did dragons better"....  "Skyrim  did Archery better"....  "Skyrim did Stealth Better".....  Skyrim's Alchemy System was better"  etc.  etc. 

And an important sidenote.   The trump card here, really:    Even the three flaws  I listed above are remedied with Mods....  Funny how that goes, eh.  This game has a tool kit, which means discussions like these are a moot point.

Agree with the tone; Skyrim is a top caliber game. But I will disagree with these points, as they do not always hold true:

* UI is better for me as a PC user simply because I cannot read SkyUI well enough. Yes; wish I had the sorted features, but have played entirely w/o it. It may be improved, but is far from horrible.

* Thugs plus Dragon vs DB in my very first playthrough while taking the Smithing tutorial in Riverwood. That one took several reloads, and crossing the stream many times before surving that encounter. And I have found some Ebony items rather early in the game, but those may be static drops; uncertain.

* See above, plus many of the articfacts do seem to be at set locations; why I often use the Wikia to plan journies.

And I am somewhat surprised at the restraint seen in not flaying the author over the variety seen in dungeons. He suggests that they may appear different, but are all the same. Really? As in they all have traps, loot, undead (for that is what is found in a tomb), etc? 

All this plus a Toolkit = GOTY

[SpunkyMonkey]

Yrkoon wrote...

Aah yes.  Trying to extract criticism  from  the fans now, since we're  tired of  the  praise.

Ok, sure, I'll bite.  Aside from the clunky, unintuitive and sometimes buggy UI  (which is a pretty major gripe from PC users, btw, not sure why it's not enough  for you guys), I would say that Skyrim suffers a  bit too much  from  some of the  cancerous  modernization features  that we've seen afflict almost every major RPG over the past half decade or so.


Mainly:

1) Level scaling.  Not nearly as bad as it was in Oblivion, but its still there, and still manages  to make the game feel less "free"  and limitless than it should be.   In terms of  flaws that a game can have, I rank this pretty high up there.   IMO  one of the single best  features in an open world sandbox is  the  freedom to stumble into a cave or area that you're simply not ready for - where the enemies  can utterly squash you like a bug.   And with level-scaled loot, the reward for gettiing in over your head and miraculously succeeding.... is not there either.  I mean sure, in Skyrim, you could, at level 3, wander over to the giant camp near whiterun and get squashed like a bug by a Giant in one hit.  But that's  about it:  Giant camps.  Everything else -  All the caves, ruins, dungeons, forts  and other enemy camps are strictly level scaled and the loot in them is as well, meaning they can be tackled at any level and rest assured,  the precious "game balance" that Developers work so damn hard to maintain (for some reason I've still not figured out) cannot be  broken.... until  you're too high of a level to care about it anymore.  (you will never, for example, find a Daedric Greatsword  at level 3.  Ever.  Even if you beat unsurmountable odds and *earned* it.


2)  Randomized Loot.  This is a  double edged sword, and more of a design choice  than a flaw.    But IMO, randomized loot drops are best done sparingly, not:  almost every single time, with every single enemy and in every single chest, like it is in skyrim.    But again,   I see the validity for both sides of the "set vs. random" loot dispensing argument.   On the one hand there's replay value in, say, named bosses dropping something different every time you beat them, on the other hand, I like the way  loot is distributed in games like Baldur's Gate 2.  because you  can plan your builds better, and the loot doesn't feel trivilized and arbitrary.   For Example:   Firkraag Always drops   Carsomyr, so if you're a paladin, you know where you have to go, and who you have to beat.

And that's about it.  I found no other notable flaws with Skyrim.   The game is otherwise remarkably Amazing.    Genre-defining, even.     Mark my words.   All  big budget RPGs in the near to distant   future will have to contend with  being compared to Skyrim, feature by feature.   And in most cases,  they will  ultimately suffer for it.   People will  point to their dungeons and say:  "Hey, these dungeons are not nearly as cool as Skyrim's"  or  "Skyrim's music was better".  Skyrim did dragons better"....  "Skyrim  did Archery better"....  "Skyrim did Stealth Better".....  Skyrim's Alchemy System was better"  etc.  etc. 

And an important sidenote.   The trump card here, really:    Even the three flaws  I listed above are remedied with Mods....  Funny how that goes, eh.  This game has a tool kit, which means discussions like these are a moot point.

I'm surprised how defensive some of your comments are, I'm only trying to talk about the game and was interested in someone's opinion who's so obviously passionate about it - mainly to see if I could adjust my POV with those facts in mind to see if there would be any reason to purchase it again at a later date at a budget price or GOTY edition etc.

But you hit the key point at the bottom - the mods. I play on an offline 360 and the vanilla version of the game just doesn't fix enough issues for me to warrent a re-purchase. Chances are I may pick it up again in 3-4 years time when I've an upgraded PC, but for now it doesn't look to be an option.

I'd also very much like to see an RPG (TES or otherwise) experiment environment and creature-wise as Morrowind did. For all it's faults I can return to it time and time again because it's got such an "alien" feel and is so different from other RPGs.

[Joy Divison]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

I'm surprised how defensive some of your comments are, I'm only trying to talk about the game and was interested in someone's opinion who's so obviously passionate about it - mainly to see if I could adjust my POV with those facts in mind to see if there would be any reason to purchase it again at a later date at a budget price or GOTY edition etc.

Because by agreeing with (and keep referring to) a crappy review [edit: it's not even a review.  it's a blog/soapbox rant] that frames its critcisms in personal opinion or downright wrong information about Skyrim, you are setting the tone of the discussion.  Since you put so much stock in that review, I'm more of the mind you less trying to adjust your POV than get us to admit Skyrim isn't nearly as good as we think it is.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 24 décembre 2012 - 02:56 .

[Joy Divison]

Elhanan wrote...

* UI is better for me as a PC user simply because I cannot read SkyUI well enough. Yes; wish I had the sorted features, but have played entirely w/o it. It may be improved, but is far from horrible.

The UI is horrible.  Getting used to it and dealing with it does not somehow make it less horrible.

[Joy Divison]

grr...

Modifié par Joy Divison, 24 décembre 2012 - 02:55 .

[Yrkoon]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...
I'm surprised how defensive some of your comments are, I'm only trying to talk about the game and was interested in someone's opinion who's so obviously passionate about it - mainly to see if I could adjust my POV with those facts in mind to see if there would be any reason to purchase it again at a later date at a budget price or GOTY edition etc.

 In that case, We're going to fail.

You can't  "convince" someone  to like a game he's already played and didn't enjoy.

I learned that from personal experience.   I spent 6 long, debate-filled months on the DA2 forum trying to get people to assure me that the Game I just got done playing wasn't  actually the worst piece of garbage I ever spent 60 bucks on  -  that my disgust at its mediocrity was simply due to me being in a "bad gaming  mood" for those specific 40+ hours I spent playing it  -  that maybe if I approached the game with a "different mindset" I'd suddenly  see all of its irredeemable flaws as brilliant, iconic   Gaming innovations.

But no.  An entire forum of eager fans failed.   Although one guy came really close.  He told me to approach the game as if it was an epic satire deliberately designed to mock the RPG genre and all its tropes.  So I started a new playthrough with that "POV".  It worked.... but I still didn't enjoy the game.   I learned that even Epic Satires can be boring as F**K when delivered in such a repetative, and hamfisted manner

Modifié par Yrkoon, 24 décembre 2012 - 04:06 .

[Foolsfolly]

So, I decided to take my vampire mage to Solsteim... only to remember how glitched she was. Which prompted me to delete her and start anew.

It's been fun.

....but now I have a problem. I built one of the Hearthfire houses and the basement's mannequin keeps cloning the gear I put on it.

For literally no reason other than "Eh, whatever" I put a suit of fur armor on the mannequin. Later I sold the armor only to return to it back on the rack. And it keeps spawning there. I can't figure out how I started this cycle and thus have no ****ing clue how to stop it.

Last thing I tried? I took everything off it, saved, loaded, put vampire armor on it, left, and came back to fur armor again (the vampire armor was on the rack but not equipped). How do I stop this?

[Elhanan]

Joy Divison wrote...

The UI is horrible.  Getting used to it and dealing with it does not somehow make it less horrible.

Sorry; it is fine. It is more than getting adept or adapted to the UI; simply reserve using horrible for something that is unplayable and/ or broken. I have never had a complaint of the interface, and while seeing features appear in SkyUI that are I wish were included, I am unable to read it comfortably. If this was the GUI by default, then I would be able to use the descriptor accurately.

For points that I see that require improvement:

* Marriage and romance - currently in name only.
* Follower AI - it only insures that I will continue to play solo.
* Writing - if the entire game were up to the standards of the favored stories and quests discussed in this thread alone, this would make me incredibly content  Currently it is also fine, and even great in places.

The article is well written; well laid out for readers, but is fallacious, erronious, and seemingly tainted by strong negative opinion.

[Barbarossa2010]

I just wanted to try and write it:

****r.

Edit: Didn't work for me either.

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 24 décembre 2012 - 06:24 .

[Joy Divison]

Elhanan wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

The UI is horrible.  Getting used to it and dealing with it does not somehow make it less horrible.

Sorry; it is fine. It is more than getting adept or adapted to the UI; simply reserve using horrible for something that is unplayable and/ or broken. I have never had a complaint of the interface, and while seeing features appear in SkyUI that are I wish were included, I am unable to read it comfortably. If this was the GUI by default, then I would be able to use the descriptor accurately.

It's not fine.  Never had a complaint? Sorry, any interface in which I have to stop the game and sort through multiple menus to equip a weapon in my left hand is not fine, it is horrible.  I was able to do so without pausing the game in the 1990s.

[Addai]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...
I'm surprised how defensive some of your comments are, I'm only trying to talk about the game and was interested in someone's opinion who's so obviously passionate about it - mainly to see if I could adjust my POV with those facts in mind to see if there would be any reason to purchase it again at a later date at a budget price or GOTY edition etc.

But you hit the key point at the bottom - the mods. I play on an offline 360 and the vanilla version of the game just doesn't fix enough issues for me to warrent a re-purchase. Chances are I may pick it up again in 3-4 years time when I've an upgraded PC, but for now it doesn't look to be an option.

I'd also very much like to see an RPG (TES or otherwise) experiment environment and creature-wise as Morrowind did. For all it's faults I can return to it time and time again because it's got such an "alien" feel and is so different from other RPGs.

I've seen enough Morrowind fan moaning that I just can't deal with it any longer.  The obvious cure for that is to go play Morrowind, not spend time on forums lambasting Skyrim.

From my perspective TESV improved over Oblivion on every metric except the faction quest lines, which I would have liked to see be deeper and meatier.  Lore-wise Skyrim is more Morrowind than Oblivion IMO, presenting a darker and grittier world.  There is also plenty of fantastical weirdness like Blackreach.  But if every RPG was alien weird, then that would cease to be unique, so I can't understand the demand that every single TES game conform.

Mods are not going to rescue the game for you if you don't like the base game.

It's ironic you criticize the UI since PC players got such a crappy UI because it is suited to consoles.

[Elhanan]

Joy Divison wrote...

It's not fine.  Never had a complaint? Sorry, any interface in which I have to stop the game and sort through multiple menus to equip a weapon in my left hand is not fine, it is horrible.  I was able to do so without pausing the game in the 1990s.

Nevrer. I have always had to pause in games, with the single exceptions of m/p NWN1 and SWTOR; those had plenty of Quickspaces.

And while I have had to scroll in some instances, these have not been in personal inventory (eg; Breezeholm apparel drawer was simply overstocked). But I have both poor reflexes, and am disabled, so perhaps I am used to such occurances. That said, I have 1400+ hrs that the current AI is OK.

[blaidfiste]

Elhanan wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

It's not fine.  Never had a complaint? Sorry, any interface in which I have to stop the game and sort through multiple menus to equip a weapon in my left hand is not fine, it is horrible.  I was able to do so without pausing the game in the 1990s.

Nevrer. I have always had to pause in games, with the single exceptions of m/p NWN1 and SWTOR; those had plenty of Quickspaces.

And while I have had to scroll in some instances, these have not been in personal inventory (eg; Breezeholm apparel drawer was simply overstocked). But I have both poor reflexes, and am disabled, so perhaps I am used to such occurances. That said, I have 1400+ hrs that the current AI is OK.

Agreed.  I use hotkeys 1-6 for my most used items/spells/abilities and favorite the rest.  The most I have to do in game is hit "Q"  Some more bindings would be nice but meh. 

[Joy Divison]

Elhanan wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

It's not fine.  Never had a complaint? Sorry, any interface in which I have to stop the game and sort through multiple menus to equip a weapon in my left hand is not fine, it is horrible.  I was able to do so without pausing the game in the 1990s.

Nevrer. I have always had to pause in games, with the single exceptions of m/p NWN1 and SWTOR; those had plenty of Quickspaces.

And while I have had to scroll in some instances, these have not been in personal inventory (eg; Breezeholm apparel drawer was simply overstocked). But I have both poor reflexes, and am disabled, so perhaps I am used to such occurances. That said, I have 1400+ hrs that the current AI is OK.

I see.  So since you never had any problems with the interface and it conforms with your idiosyncratic way of playing, it could not possibly be objectively bad.

No wonder Spunkymonkey feels Skyrim fanboys cant admit the game's faults...

Modifié par Joy Divison, 24 décembre 2012 - 08:25 .

[blaidfiste]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

I just wanted to try and write it:

****r.

Edit: Didn't work for me either.

Quote this post to see how it's done.  Credits go to Yrkoon.

Nazir

Modifié par blaidfiste, 24 décembre 2012 - 08:29 .

[Get Magna Carter]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

I just wanted to try and write it:

****r.

Edit: Didn't work for me either.

there is a trick to it.
I won't drop hints as to what the trick is as some people have already abused the trick to include swear words.
Circumventing forum rules using these tricks to use banned words can lead to suspensions or banning.
(though I don't think they care in this specific case as the trouble with this name is a side-effect rather than the actual intent of the ban)

[Get Magna Carter]

Joy Divison wrote...

It's not fine.  Never had a complaint? Sorry, any interface in which I have to stop the game and sort through multiple menus to equip a weapon in my left hand is not fine, it is horrible.  I was able to do so without pausing the game in the 1990s.

You think that's bad?
I remember one PS1 game where equiping a weapon or accessing a healing item meant fiddling though a complex menu and you couldn't pause the game while doing so (and no short-cut keys)....it is frustrating watching your character die while trying to equip a weapon...

[Addai]

Joy Divison wrote...

I see.  So since you never had any problems with the interface and it conforms with your idiosyncratic way of playing, it could not possibly be objectively bad.

No wonder Spunkymonkey feels Skyrim fanboys cant admit the game's faults...

Well if someone has adapted and has no problem with it, good for them.  I think most agree that the UI is terrible.  The popularity of SkyUI alone should show that, though I don't think it's that much of an improvement either.  I used Categorized Favorites and lately have gotten dependent on a few mods with sortable containers (the archmage quarters is suddenly my favorite digs for this reason).  I still get the maddening thing where if you don't click *just right* on a dialogue choice it either closes the menu or selects another one at random.  grrr

[MarchWaltz]

Addai67 wrote...
Well if someone has adapted and has no problem with it, good for them.  I think most agree that the UI is terrible.  The popularity of SkyUI alone should show that, though I don't think it's that much of an improvement either.  I used Categorized Favorites and lately have gotten dependent on a few mods with sortable containers (the archmage quarters is suddenly my favorite digs for this reason).  I still get the maddening thing where if you don't click *just right* on a dialogue choice it either closes the menu or selects another one at random.  grrr

http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/27371

Haven not tested it myself yet, but I think this will help ya.

[blaidfiste]

Yrkoon wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...
I'm surprised how defensive some of your comments are, I'm only trying to talk about the game and was interested in someone's opinion who's so obviously passionate about it - mainly to see if I could adjust my POV with those facts in mind to see if there would be any reason to purchase it again at a later date at a budget price or GOTY edition etc.

 In that case, We're going to fail.

You can't  "convince" someone  to like a game he's already played and didn't enjoy.

I learned that from personal experience.   I spent 6 long, debate-filled months on the DA2 forum trying to get people to assure me that the Game I just got done playing wasn't  actually the worst piece of garbage I ever spent 60 bucks on  -  that my disgust at its mediocrity was simply due to me being in a "bad gaming  mood" for those specific 40+ hours I spent playing it  -  that maybe if I approached the game with a "different mindset" I'd suddenly  see all of its irredeemable flaws as brilliant, iconic   Gaming innovations.

But no.  An entire forum of eager fans failed.   Although one guy came really close.  He told me to approach the game as if it was an epic satire deliberately designed to mock the RPG genre and all its tropes.  So I started a new playthrough with that "POV".  It worked.... but I still didn't enjoy the game.   I learned that even Epic Satires can be boring as F**K when delivered in such a repetative, and hamfisted manner

sarcastic troll Hawke ftw.

[TEWR]

My level 1 Altmer mage just took down a Wispmother, at least 8 wisps, and a few of the Wispmother's shades.

No help, barely any potions, didn't use the special racial power. Felt pretty good about that.

[Addai]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

My level 1 Altmer mage just took down a Wispmother, at least 8 wisps, and a few of the Wispmother's shades.

No help, barely any potions, didn't use the special racial power. Felt pretty good about that.

I had only fought those at high levels then eventually got one at low level and found out what a horrid b*tch it can be to try to kill them once they're able to spawn all those decoys and wisps.  Gah.