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[EpicBoot2daFace]

Splinter Cell 108 wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Splinter Cell 108 wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Yeah, but it's clear that General Tullius won't take that risk. Skyrim can't stand on it's own. We need the Empire, even if the Empire isn't what it once was.

I agree but going as far as killing him is not exactly the best approach IMO. Same goes for Ulfric killing General Tullius , why can't he let the General go back to Cyrodil instead of killing him like that. 

Because it wouldn't have made a difference. The idea was to end the rebellion and unify Skyrim against the Dominion. The Stormcloaks try to make it out like the Empire and the Dominion are the same entity. But that isn't true. If they hadn't banned the worship of Talos, (and some other demands made by the Thalmor) the Empire would have been destroyed and Skyrim would have fallen.

This is a wonderful read for those who are still on the fence or still support the Stormcloaks.

Read it before, but the points being made here are valid. Sometimes it doesn't seem like the Empire is looking out for Skyrim instead it feels as if Cyrodiil is just looking out for itself and it is as it was said, the Elder Council is no good. It is people like Tullius that are keeping the Empire alive. Still, having Ulfric executed has the potential to cause more problems, it can make him a martyr and inspire further rebellions, that is why I'd prefer if they jailed him and if they Empire tried to be a little less harsh with the Nords, they are not the enemy. 

The important thing to keep in mind is that the Stormcloaks and their supporters are a minority in Skyrim. Most folks there support the Empire. In a time of war, the last thing you want is civil war to break out in one of the nations your're depending on. Still, the Dominion will fall, one way or another. The Empire (or the Stormcloaks depending on your preference) has the Dovahkiin.

[ejoslin]

krul2k wrote...

anyone recommend a perk tree overhaul mod?

What are you looking for in this?  If you just want to edit existing perks, it is an incredibly easy thing to do in the creation kit.  It took me about 15 minutes to remove all perk prerequisites.  I also changed the requirement for arcane blacksmith from 60 to 40.  If you want to make perks more difficult to get or change their strength, again, it's not a difficult thing to do, and you can make it play exactly like you want it to.

[Splinter Cell 108]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...


The important thing to keep in mind is that the Stormcloaks and their supporters are a minority in Skyrim. Most folks there support the Empire. In a time of war, the last thing you want is civil war to break out in one of the nations your're depending on. Still, the Dominion will fall, one way or another. The Empire (or the Stormcloaks depending on your preference) has the Dovahkiin.

I don't know about that, most of the time I never join with them anyways. 

[Joy Divison]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Because it wouldn't have made a difference. The idea was to end the rebellion and unify Skyrim against the Dominion. The Stormcloaks try to make it out like the Empire and the Dominion are the same entity. But that isn't true. If they hadn't banned the worship of Talos, (and some other demands made by the Thalmor) the Empire would have been destroyed and Skyrim would have fallen.

This is a wonderful read for those who are still on the fence or still support the Stormcloaks.

What you are quoting is an implicit condemnation of the Empire and Titus Mede's signing of the White-Gold Condordat.

1) It is written by an Imperial.  This does not the author is inherently biased, but an overall assessment of the text defintiely reveals he views things from a pro-Empire perspective.

2) Even the author admits "the main Aldmeri army in Cyrodiil was completely destroyed."  The Thalmor after the Battle of Red Ring were not then in a postion to militarily dictate peace terms.

3) The author believes the White-Gold Concordat was necessary for the survival of the Empire, but what evidence does he put forth?  Only "Titus II believed that it was necessary..."  Rulers are not omniscient and they make mistakes.  If no legion had half its complement of soldiers, that was better than the Aldmeri's position which was "completely destroyed."  The Dominion would have to raise entire armies from scratch AND transport them across an ocean AND supply them through hostile territory, logistical feats that pale in comparison to the Empire's predicament. 

4) Did "most of the Empire welcomed peace at any price"?  No, this is where the author's bias comes into play.  What he means is perhaps "most of CYRODIIL..."  IIRC, the Empire also contains Hammerfell and Skyrim.  The author's own epilogue clearly notes Hammerfell viewed the treaty as a betrayal and when playing Skyrim, most of the NPCs comments toward the treaty are decidely negative.

5) The epilogue about Hammerfell successfully holding out against the Empire is the biggest condemnation against the White-Gold Concordat.  Titus overestimated his own problems and underestimated the extent of his victory.  If the Redguards *on their own* resisted the Dominion, it almost goes without saying the Empire could have achieved better peace terms than what was signed.

The only peace Titus should have signed after the *victory* at Red Ring was a Status quo ante bellum, that is, the state of affairs before the war.  I am a historian and I am having sifficulty finding a historical parallel where an invader's army was completely wiped out and yet the other side completely capitulated and agreed to such a humilating peace.  It just isn't done.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 08 mars 2013 - 05:05 .

[Giggles_Manically]

I doubt it truly matters who joins who in the game.

Most likely they will do one of these things:
A) No Thalmor DLC - Skyrim invaded and destroyed between games
Thalmor DLC - Dragonborn smashes their big plot or something
C) Next game set in Alinor, Thalmor get smashed by the next protag.

Or they all dance the remigold and eat cheese till they explode.
I like to call that Option Sheogorath Fun Times.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Joy Divison wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Because it wouldn't have made a difference. The idea was to end the rebellion and unify Skyrim against the Dominion. The Stormcloaks try to make it out like the Empire and the Dominion are the same entity. But that isn't true. If they hadn't banned the worship of Talos, (and some other demands made by the Thalmor) the Empire would have been destroyed and Skyrim would have fallen.

This is a wonderful read for those who are still on the fence or still support the Stormcloaks.

What you are quoting is an implicit condemnation of the Empire and Titus Mede's signing of the White-Gold Condordat.

1) It is written by an Imperial.  This does not the author is inherently biased, but an overall assessment of the text defintiely reveals he views things from a pro-Empire perspective.

2) Even the author admits "the main Aldmeri army in Cyrodiil was completely destroyed."  The Thalmor after the Battle of Red Ring were not then in a postion to militarily dictate peace terms.

3) The author believes the White-Gold Concordat was necessary for the survival of the Empire, but what evidence does he put forth?  Only "Titus II believed that it was necessary..."  Rulers are not omniscient and they make mistakes.  If no legion had half its complement of soldiers, that was better than the Aldmeri's position which was "completely destroyed."  The Dominion would have to raise entire armies from scratch AND transport them across an ocean AND supply them through hostile territory, logistical feats that pale in comparison to the Empire's predicament. 

4) Did "most of the Empire welcomed peace at any price"?  No, this is where the author's bias comes into play.  What he means is perhaps "most of CYRODIIL..."  IIRC, the Empire also contains Hammerfell and Skyrim.  The author's own epilogue clearly notes Hammerfell viewed the treaty as a betrayal and when playing Skyrim, most of the NPCs comments toward the treaty are decidely negative.

5) The epilogue about Hammerfell successfully holding out against the Empire is the biggest condemnation against the White-Gold Concordat.  Titus overestimated his own problems and underestimated the extent of his victory.  If the Redguards *on their own* resisted the Dominion, it almost goes without saying the Empire could have achieved better peace terms than what was signed.

The only peace Titus should have signed after the *victory* at Red Ring was a Status quo ante bellum, that is, the state of affairs before the war.  I am a historian and I am having sifficulty finding a historical parallel where an invader's army was completely wiped out and yet the other side completely capitulated and agreed to such a humilating peace.  It just isn't done.

Which means that he could be exagerating when he says that the main force of the Dominion was completely destroyed. I don't see why Titus would agree to those terms if he thought the Dominion could be easily wiped out.

[Addai]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...
The important thing to keep in mind is that the Stormcloaks and their supporters are a minority in Skyrim. Most folks there support the Empire. In a time of war, the last thing you want is civil war to break out in one of the nations your're depending on. Still, the Dominion will fall, one way or another. The Empire (or the Stormcloaks depending on your preference) has the Dovahkiin.

This isn't true, it is half and half, and according to Rikke "more join Ulfric's cause every day."  That's pretty impressive considering Skyrim always was the most pro-imperial province outside Cyrodiil itself.  And it's not only the WGC that has stirred up anti-imperial sentiment, it's imperial interference in Skyrim's affairs (see Skyrim's Rule).

Likewise Morrowind, Valenwood, Argonia and Elsweyr all have gone anti-imperial for reasons more complicated than just the rise of the Dominion.  It's just the inevitable end of trying to keep colonialist expansion cobbled together, when there is no more mythic power at its center.  Bethesda's been hinting at the empire's fall for a long time.  MK explained it as a U shape- the more unified the provinces were, the weaker they individually got.  Now we're in a time where there is more chaos but the individual races will get stronger.

The Thalmor won't win because Lorkhan will only put up with them so long before he kicks them in the soul gems, but the Dominion under a more moderate leadership could well win.  Why not?  Tamriel was an elven empire before.

Modifié par Addai67, 09 mars 2013 - 12:28 .

[Splinter Cell 108]

Joy Divison wrote...

What you are quoting is an implicit condemnation of the Empire and Titus Mede's signing of the White-Gold Condordat.

1) It is written by an Imperial.  This does not the author is inherently biased, but an overall assessment of the text defintiely reveals he views things from a pro-Empire perspective.

2) Even the author admits "the main Aldmeri army in Cyrodiil was completely destroyed."  The Thalmor after the Battle of Red Ring were not then in a postion to militarily dictate peace terms.

3) The author believes the White-Gold Concordat was necessary for the survival of the Empire, but what evidence does he put forth?  Only "Titus II believed that it was necessary..."  Rulers are not omniscient and they make mistakes.  If no legion had half its complement of soldiers, that was better than the Aldmeri's position which was "completely destroyed."  The Dominion would have to raise entire armies from scratch AND transport them across an ocean AND supply them through hostile territory, logistical feats that pale in comparison to the Empire's predicament. 

4) Did "most of the Empire welcomed peace at any price"?  No, this is where the author's bias comes into play.  What he means is perhaps "most of CYRODIIL..."  IIRC, the Empire also contains Hammerfell and Skyrim.  The author's own epilogue clearly notes Hammerfell viewed the treaty as a betrayal and when playing Skyrim, most of the NPCs comments toward the treaty are decidely negative.

5) The epilogue about Hammerfell successfully holding out against the Empire is the biggest condemnation against the White-Gold Concordat.  Titus overestimated his own problems and underestimated the extent of his victory.  If the Redguards *on their own* resisted the Dominion, it almost goes without saying the Empire could have achieved better peace terms than what was signed.

The only peace Titus should have signed after the *victory* at Red Ring was a Status quo ante bellum, that is, the state of affairs before the war.  I am a historian and I am having sifficulty finding a historical parallel where an invader's army was completely wiped out and yet the other side completely capitulated and agreed to such a humilating peace.  It just isn't done.

Sorry but I have to say that the Aldmeri must have had something to force the Emperor into signing that treaty, I doubt they would have signed just like that. Unless the Elder council had put pressure on the Emperor or something I doubt it was done "just because". As for Hammerfell, I think the Thalmor let the Redguard win, there's no point in wasting more forces on just one province, especially when they have bigger plans at hand. Like I said before as well, there's no benefit in fighting the Redguard any longer, they already left the Empire. The best warriors in Tamriel no longer belong to the Empire, that is a big victory. The last time the Thalmor existed it took a Brass Golem to defeat them, I doubt the Redguard alone could beat them. 

I don't wholeheartedly support the Empire but like I've said before, I'd prefer if they beat the Thalmor before they fall apart, they can crash and burn after that for all I care. I really don't know who else could beat them anyway, an alliance of nations would not seem as effective or as organized as an Empire under one centralized government. Less disorganization and less bureucracy, but yeah the Empire does have the useless Elder Council, but then again it does have people like Tullius who are the people who are holding the Empire together. 

krul2k wrote...
is this were all this "Alliance" business im reading about for elder scroll online coming to ahead about?
Im guessing in the other elder scroll games you have visited other countries an they will all be represented in the online game an by sounds of it there going to be outright war everywhere against the empire.
I really need to go play the other games dont i lol

To be honest I hope those alliances never happen after Skyrim, they can stay in the time before it, I wouldn't even know how it is that they came to be. The Dunmer do not get along with the Nords or the Argonians, the Bretons and the Redguard have a history of attacking the Orcs, the Redguard tried to conquer Tamriel and I believe there's bad blood between the Redguard and the Bretons as well. I could see the Argonians allying with the Nords but then again the Argonians rarely get involved in Tamriel's problems. The only alliance that makes sense is the Aldmeri Dominion, and then again it really isn't an alliance at all since it is more like the Altmer enforcing their will on everyone else. 

[Sajuro]

I think Hammerfell winning would be more akin to Afghanistan and Vietnam with the Redguard using guerrilla warfare, and Elder Scrolls Online is supposed to be set before the series

[Addai]

krul2k wrote...

is this were all this "Alliance" business im reading about for elder scroll online coming to ahead about?

Im guessing in the other elder scroll games you have visited other countries an they will all be represented in the online game an by sounds of it there going to be outright war everywhere against the empire.

I really need to go play the other games dont i lol

ESO takes place long before the single-player games, 300 years before Tiber Septim even came onto the scene.

[IllusiveManJr]

So seeing as I'll finish Tomb Raider tonight (yes, it's still Friday here) I wanted to know about Dawnguard since that's what I'll move on to.

Werewolf or Vampire, and will it have an effect on my main gameplay?

[Elhanan]

IllusiveManJr wrote...

So seeing as I'll finish Tomb Raider tonight (yes, it's still Friday here) I wanted to know about Dawnguard since that's what I'll move on to.

Werewolf or Vampire, and will it have an effect on my main gameplay?

Between the two, I choose Vampire, and it does effect the story and gameplay. But so does the DG themselves, if you wish to play a Hunter.

[Joy Divison]

Splinter Cell 108 wrote...

Sorry but I have to say that the Aldmeri must have had something to force the Emperor into signing that treaty, I doubt they would have signed just like that.

So even though you have no evidence to support your claim you are saying I'm wrong?  How exactly does that work?

I don't wholeheartedly support the Empire but like I've said before, I'd prefer if they beat the Thalmor before they fall apart, they can crash and burn after that for all I care...it does have people like Tullius who are the people who are holding the Empire together.

Ahh, I see. Not a fan of the Stormcloak rebellion are you...

[Joy Divison]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

1) It is written by an Imperial.  This does not the author is inherently biased, but an overall assessment of the text defintiely reveals he views things from a pro-Empire perspective.

Which means that he could be exagerating when he says that the main force of the Dominion was completely destroyed. I don't see why Titus would agree to those terms if he thought the Dominion could be easily wiped out.

No, that's one of the claims we can be certain of.  The Aldmeri armies were surrounded and had no means of escape.  If enough of the Aldmeri armies were able to withdraw to be a threat, it's not like they could do so unnoticed - enemy armies can't hide in foreign territory.  Besides, if his point was Titus should have signed the treaty - which you want to believe - he'd be better off saying ther was still an Aldmeri threat.  He actually has a motive to *not* say the Aldmeri forces were wiped out.

[MadParrot]

IllusiveManJr wrote...

So seeing as I'll finish Tomb Raider tonight (yes, it's still Friday here) I wanted to know about Dawnguard since that's what I'll move on to.

Werewolf or Vampire, and will it have an effect on my main gameplay?

Depends what you're looking for.

Vampires are immensely powerful with their new abilities and the Necromage perk, while werewolves are IMO more fun to play as.

Edit: Also, as a heads-up, Dawnguard introduced a bug where you can't complete a certain Dark Brotherhood quest if you're a vampire. You'll have to either complete it before becoming a vampire or cure your vampirism before attempting.

Modifié par Madparrott, 09 mars 2013 - 12:23 .

[Splinter Cell 108]

Joy Divison wrote...

So even though you have no evidence to support your claim you are saying I'm wrong?  How exactly does that work.

Ahh, I see. Not a fan of the Stormcloak rebellion are you...

Nope, just pure speculation, not suggesting you're making it up. I'm just going for what's logical, They had to have something to make the Emperor bend that way. Same goes for Hammerfell, it is my theory that the Thalmor let them win but who knows if it that is truly what happened. However, like I said before, the last time the Thalmor were around it took a Brass Golem to defeat them and that was with Tiber Septin, I have no doubt they had something to force the Emperor.

Maybe not as much as I like the Empire, but even then I have decided to join them with some of my characters. I'm no blind supporter or anything of the sort. The Stormcloak rebellion does have its merits and Ulfric isn't as bad as the Imperials suggest and it seems that the only people who say that are Imperials, who are clearly biased, especially from that book that claims that he murdered the people in the Reach, which was written by an Imperial, however they don't mention anything about the atrocities that the Forsworn have commited. The one thing I can appreciate about the rebellion is the fact that is that it has the potential to change everything, and that in my opinion is necessary, Empire or not. 

This debate never seems to end, I hope they just release a DLC in which we get to start the Second Great War, its about time that the Thalmor get what's coming to them. 

Modifié par Splinter Cell 108, 09 mars 2013 - 02:26 .

[Joy Divison]

Splinter Cell 108 wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

So even though you have no evidence to support your claim you are saying I'm wrong?  How exactly does that work.

Ahh, I see. Not a fan of the Stormcloak rebellion are you...

Nope, just pure speculation, not suggesting you're making it up. I'm just going for what's logical, They had to have something to make the Emperor bend that way.

Logical?  Since when is war or politics logical?  The thrust of my critique against Titus & the Empire is that they signed a humilating peace treaty which caved in to all the Thalmor demands *without* any tangible military threat on their soil to compell them to do so. 

What you and the "recover and rebuild" advocates do not seem to grasp is that while it's one thing to sign an slightly unfavorable peace treaty and conceed on matters that are not important in the grand scheme due to war exhaustion, it is another to bend knee and completely give in to demands which will prevent recovey and rebuilding...exactly how is the Empire going to come back stronger by willingly give away the land of the greatest warriors in Tamriel and planting the seeds of internal civil war by letting the Thalmor abduct its citizens as they please?  Where is the logic in that?

Modifié par Joy Divison, 09 mars 2013 - 03:30 .

[Giggles_Manically]

I think that the Empire is well and truly doomed to be honest.

They lost Hammerfall, they are losing Skyrim, and are basically on their last legs.
However I think if you join them you get a bigger hope of preventing their imminent doom.

Think about it:
As a Dragonborn you are giving them legitimacy.
You keep another province from leaving
You can rebuild the blades
Also you can give the Thalmor quite a bloody nose and they cant do anything about it.

Also the only reason I am doing it this time, is that my Breton wants to sink the Thieves Guild back into Imperial society.

[Splinter Cell 108]

Joy Divison wrote...

Splinter Cell 108 wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

So even though you have no evidence to support your claim you are saying I'm wrong?  How exactly does that work.

Ahh, I see. Not a fan of the Stormcloak rebellion are you...

Nope, just pure speculation, not suggesting you're making it up. I'm just going for what's logical, They had to have something to make the Emperor bend that way.

Logical?  Since when is war or politics logical?  The thrust of my critique against Titus & the Empire is that they signed a humilating peace treaty which caved in to all the Thalmor demands *without* any tangible military threat on their soil to compell them to do so. 

What you and the "recover and rebuild" advocates do not seem to grasp is that while it's one thing to sign an slightly unfavorable peace treaty and conceed on matters that are not important in the grand scheme due to war exhaustion, it is another to bend knee and completely give in to demands which will prevent recovey and rebuilding...exactly how is the Empire going to come back stronger by willingly give away the land of the greatest warriors in Tamriel and planting the seeds of internal civil war by letting the Thalmor abduct its citizens as they please?  Where is the logic in that?

There is ONE book, ONE book that says the Thalmor's army was depleted. Is that truly enough evidence for you to believe that their military was long gone. It was also written by an Imperial, who's to say that he wasn't just writing about what he wanted to see. I do not think Titus Mede II is that much of a moron as to sign that treaty without anything compelling him to do so. People can say what they want, I said it before and I'll say it again, the last time the Thalmor were around it was very difficult for Tiber Septim to defeat them, I have no doubt that it will be equally as difficult this time and this time there's no conquering hero or Dwemer contraptions to stop them now. 

Titus Mede was offered that deal before and he refused it, why would he change his mind all of a sudden? 

[Carcharoth42]

Splinter Cell 108 wrote...
There is ONE book, ONE book that says the Thalmor's army was depleted. Is that truly enough evidence for you to believe that their military was long gone. It was also written by an Imperial, who's to say that he wasn't just writing about what he wanted to see. I do not think Titus Mede II is that much of a moron as to sign that treaty without anything compelling him to do so. People can say what they want, I said it before and I'll say it again, the last time the Thalmor were around it was very difficult for Tiber Septim to defeat them, I have no doubt that it will be equally as difficult this time and this time there's no conquering hero or Dwemer contraptions to stop them now. 

Titus Mede was offered that deal before and he refused it, why would he change his mind all of a sudden? 

From The Great War.
Critics have pointed out that the Concordat is almost identical to the
ultimatum the Emperor rejected five years earlier. However, there is a
great difference between agreeing to such terms under the mere threat of
war, and agreeing to them at the end of a long and destructive war. No
part of the Empire would have accepted these terms in 4E 171, dictated
by the Thalmor at swords-point. Titus II would have faced civil war. By
4E 175, most of the Empire welcomed peace at almost any price.

[Joy Divison]

Splinter Cell 108 wrote...

There is ONE book, ONE book that says the Thalmor's army was depleted. Is that truly enough evidence for you to believe that their military was long gone. It was also written by an Imperial, who's to say that he wasn't just writing about what he wanted to see. I do not think Titus Mede II is that much of a moron as to sign that treaty without anything compelling him to do so. People can say what they want, I said it before and I'll say it again, the last time the Thalmor were around it was very difficult for Tiber Septim to defeat them, I have no doubt that it will be equally as difficult this time and this time there's no conquering hero or Dwemer contraptions to stop them now. 

Titus Mede was offered that deal before and he refused it, why would he change his mind all of a sudden? 

1) There are NO books which substantiate your position that the Thalmor had either the military forces or the logistical capabilities to compel the Empire to accept such a humialting peace.

2) History tells us the Thalmor were incapable of imposing a peace on *just* Hammerfell.  Your argument, again without evidence, is that the Thalmor "let" Hammerfell win.  If that is so, why wait 5 years - longer than the "Great War" - to leave once its political objectives were long since accomplished with the White-Gold Concodat?

3) The Imperial was writing what he wanted to see: his argument is that the White-Gold Concordat was an honorable peace.

4) You do not need believe Titus Mede to be a moron.  He faced tremedous domestic pressure from CYRODIIL to end a ruinous war that ravaged that particular province.  He wouldn't be the first ruler to be myopic and be blinded by short-term and local interest and fail to recongize what was best in the long-term ifor his entire empire.

What in game evidence is there to support your position?  Sorry, Titus should have never signed that treaty and he deserves the contempt he receives in the game and from Hammerfell.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 09 mars 2013 - 07:31 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Why are we even arguing about the Civil War?
No one will change their minds on it.
Nothing will truly matter next game because Bethesda does not import choices.

What booze you drink in game probably has more influence then what side you pick.

I just side with the Empire because it fits my current RP.
Ah well people still argue about the Collector Base, and the Dark Ritual.

[Splinter Cell 108]

Joy Divison wrote...

1) There are NO books which substantiate your position that the Thalmor had either the military forces or the logistical capabilities to compel the Empire to accept such a humialting peace.

2) History tells us the Thalmor were incapable of imposing a peace on *just* Hammerfell.  Your argument, again without evidence, is that the Thalmor "let" Hammerfell win.  If that is so, why wait 5 years - longer than the "Great War" - to leave once its political objectives were long since accomplished with the White-Gold Concodat?

3) The Imperial was writing what he wanted to see: his argument is that the White-Gold Concordat was an honorable peace.

4) You do not need believe Titus Mede to be a moron.  He faced tremedous domestic pressure from CYRODIIL to end a ruinous war that ravaged that particular province.  He wouldn't be the first ruler to be myopic and be blinded by short-term and local interest and fail to recongize what was best in the long-term ifor his entire empire.

You are making up stuff to support your position.  Sorry, Titus should have never signed that treaty and he deserves the contempt he receives in the game and from Hammerfell.

 I am not making anything up, you can claim that as much as you want to diminish my points, I stated before that it wasn't really never known if the Redguard won because they could or because the Thalmor let them, those are my beliefs and my theories, I'm simply giving out my analysis of what truly happened. However, like I said before, what do they gain by wasting more men in Hammerfell when the Redguard already renounced the Empire, the Empire just lost one of its most valuable assets, the Thalmor accomplished what they wanted, they can take care of Hammerfell later. Besides, if it hadn't been for the Empire Hammerfell would have never defetated the Thalmor, they didn't have to face the full might of their army anyways. 

 I never said the White-Gold Concordat  was honorable, but it was necessary. The Empire needed to survive in some way at least until they can take the Thalmor out. Once again if you believe that book lays things out clearly, then its claim that the Empire could not fight any longer must have been true. The Thalmor however, were able to keep fighting for 5 more years in foreign land, does that not prove to you that they could have kept on fighting? Sure, the Redguard won, but there were many factors that allowed that, they were fighting in their own land, the brunt of the war took place in Cyrodiil not Hammerfell and finally they didn't face the full might of the Thalmor, while the Redguard themselves had to put an end to their civil war in order to fight them effectively and not only that, it took the 5 years to get them out of Hammerfell. Do you think invading Alinor will be that easy, because that's probably what needs to be done finally stop the the Thalmor and we all know how it went the last time. 

Titus Mede knows what he is doing, maybe the Elder Council may be a bunch of morons but I do not think he is. His leadership made sure that the Thalmor didn't keep the Imperial city and put the Empire in a far worse position.  Do you really think the Thalmor aren't going to capitalize on Skyrim seceding from the Empire? They gain a lot from it. Cyrodiil will be cut off from the High Rock, the last remaining province which probably means that the Empire will fall apart. Then there's the fact that both the Stormcloaks and the Empire will have lost a lot of men in the fighting and they are no longer united, meaning Skyrim is left on its own with its battered military, nobody will come to its aid. The Bretons don't want anything to do with them as evidenced by Ulfric and Galmar's dialogue and here it is in case you think I'm "making it up" 

Ulfric: "Is there any news from High Rock?"
Galmar: "Not a peep. Those prissy Bretons can't be made to lift a finger to help their neighbors."
Ulfric: "I suppose we shouldn't be surprised. They've never had many problems with the Empire."
Galmar: "Those milk drinkers? Might as well be elves. Think they're better than us."
Ulfric: "Regardless. It appears Skyrim must stand alone. Again."[/b][b]Ulfric: "Calm yourself, Galmar. Save it for the battlefield."
Galmar: "Our men are getting massacred out there. Damn Imperials."
Ulfric: "We can't march on Solitude. Not yet. One thing at a time."
Galmar: "We need to move faster. Keep them off balance."
Ulfric: "It's working, Galmar. Our patience has won us friends and allies. And our armies are systematically taking care of the rest".

Skyrim will be on its own, with its own battered military and the Thalmor will most likely get something out of it,  they will have no allies to call on. Who will help? The Dunmer or the Argonians, nope Ulfric doesn't like them and they probably feel the same, plus I doubt the Dunmer can spare the men and the Hist doesn't really care about what is happening to everyone else.  the Redguard? I doubt they can afford it without them having to worry about their own land being attacked by the Thalmor. The Imperials? They'll be closing that door once they destroy the Empire and its military, everyone else is on the Thalmor's side anyways. So regardless of whether I think the White-Gold Concordat was stupid or not, the Stormcloak rebellion seems to be an even more insane move in my opinion. 

You can believe what you want and say I'm making it all up, I really don't care, what I was doing in the first place was explaining my reasons for supporting the Empire, I don't really care if you like the Empire or not. If it offends you that us "recover and rebuild" fools cannot grasp "the big picture" then that is your problem. I will say no more.
 

Modifié par Splinter Cell 108, 09 mars 2013 - 08:22 .

[Halfdan The Menace]

Modifié par Ballistic Rebel, 15 mars 2013 - 09:16 .