37007 réponses à ce sujet

[Barbarossa2010]

I think that's the key point, Ulfric would have allowed Tullius to merely quit Skyrim, but Tullius would accept nothing less than Ulfric's execution.

I think its interesting to note as well, in the final battle in Solitude that Ulfric pleads with Rikke (probably because she is a Nord) to surrender which, of course, she refuses.

[Addai]

It depends what era you're talking about. In ancient warfare it was typical to execute the opposing king/ general. In the medieval era, the church helped bring about ransom customs and you were expected to treat at least for the nobility in the opposing army. Arabs also had ransom customs. Tullius going for a mass execution in Helgen probably ruled anything like that out for him. Fights to the death to settle succession conflicts are nothing new in Tamriel terms, either. The War of Betony for control of Daggerfall ended in a duel to the death.

Rikke, Ulfric and Galmar were apparently all friends, probably served in the Great War together.

[Evil]

Splinter Cell 108 wrote...

Solitude in itself is an irony, its the only city that doesn't look like it was made by Nords, and it looks more Imperial

After the death of Uriel Septim III in the war of the red diamond, queen Potema harassed the empire for a decade, during which the castle of solitude was laid siege to repeatedly.

Source:elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/War_of_the_Red_Diamond

The Elder scrolls V era version of solitude presumably looks the way it does due to the fact that a decade of siege warfare would have required a near-total rebuild to recover from, and the people controlling the rebuilding work would have most likely been imperials.

That and bethesda wanted each hold and city to look and feel different.

[Splinter Cell 108]

Addai67 wrote...

It depends what era you're talking about. In ancient warfare it was typical to execute the opposing king/ general. In the medieval era, the church helped bring about ransom customs and you were expected to treat at least for the nobility in the opposing army. Arabs also had ransom customs. Tullius going for a mass execution in Helgen probably ruled anything like that out for him. Fights to the death to settle succession conflicts are nothing new in Tamriel terms, either. The War of Betony for control of Daggerfall ended in a duel to the death.

Still a little barbaric to me and way more risky as well. Why execute the leaders when it might be possible to create a martyr?  If I was in charge I'd either stick them in a jail cell or send them far away to some other place, far far away from Skyrim. Don't know why Tullius changed his mind at the lats moment, they were going to Cyrodiil , then he decides to execute them. Is Ulfric really that dangerous to the Empire? Personally, I'd prefer to show more respect to Skyrim and the Nords, by not executing their popular leaders just like that. That's his main problem, too shortsighted on everything, when you tell him about Dragons, he says he's not in Skyrim to fight dragons, Ulfric doesn't say the same thing and seems more willing IMO. 

[Addai]

Leaving him alive would be a risk, too, because he'd be agitating for more resources to try to retake Skyrim. I could go either way. I'd probably imprison him until Cyrodiil recognizes Skyrim's independence and withdraws from Pale Pass and everywhere else.

[Joy Divison]

I think it far more politically viable for Ulfirc to keep Elisif around. She's a tool and easily manipulated and it does create a good image for Ulfric that he doesn't just appoint his own people in positions of power.

I don't think Tullius can allow Ulfric to simply quit Skyrim and live in comfortable exile. He says as much at the peace conference that he was appointed to put down the rebellion and return Skyrim to Imperial control...the Empire almost has to put Ulfric under the headsman's axe in order to successfully do this

I also think actual martyrs are rather rare. Tullius is just another general. If Ulfric is killed, he's just another leader of a failed rebellion. How many hundreds of kings, generals, rebel leaders, princes, and revolutionary figures have been executed that we can really call a martyr?

[Splinter Cell 108]

Joy Divison wrote...

I don't think Tullius can allow Ulfric to simply quit Skyrim and live in comfortable exile. He says as much at the peace conference that he was appointed to put down the rebellion and return Skyrim to Imperial control...the Empire almost has to put Ulfric under the headsman's axe in order to successfully do this
 

He could if he weren't so rigid, stubborn and shortsighted. That's Tullius' great flaw, he knows what things are like and yet he does nothing about it, he continues to loyally serve the Empire without question. He has he's protests about the Thalmor but he doesn't do anything about it. Even if Ulfric is ambitious and even if that is the reason why he's doing what he's doing, I think ambition is better than rigidness, at least in this case it is. 

It is better to fight the Thalmor, than to save the Empire in order to fight later on. 30 years have passed and through those 30 years the Empire's inaction has allowed the Thalmor to roam Tamriel as they please and to step on anyone who disagrees or disobeys them. Skyrim's nobility is full of boot lickers, bought and paid for by the Thalmor, I doubt the Elder Council is any different. They probably already know everything about the Empire, while no one knows a thing about them. I doubt many visitors are allowed in the Summerset Isle, Valenwood or Elsweyr. 30 years should be enough to recover and yet they have done nothing, probably because the Empire's leaders are so addicted to the Thalmor's peace and money that they don't want their whole world to shatter with another Great War. 

[Yrkoon]

Joy Divison wrote...

I think it far more politically viable for Ulfirc to keep Elisif around.

Indeed.  He should marry her.

Lets see what the Thalmor think of that turn of events.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 20 novembre 2013 - 04:22 .

[Joy Divison]

Splinter Cell 108 wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

I don't think Tullius can allow Ulfric to simply quit Skyrim and live in comfortable exile. He says as much at the peace conference that he was appointed to put down the rebellion and return Skyrim to Imperial control...the Empire almost has to put Ulfric under the headsman's axe in order to successfully do this
 

He could if he weren't so rigid, stubborn and shortsighted. That's Tullius' great flaw, he knows what things are like and yet he does nothing about it, he continues to loyally serve the Empire without question. He has he's protests about the Thalmor but he doesn't do anything about it. Even if Ulfric is ambitious and even if that is the reason why he's doing what he's doing, I think ambition is better than rigidness, at least in this case it is. 

It is better to fight the Thalmor, than to save the Empire in order to fight later on. 30 years have passed and through those 30 years the Empire's inaction has allowed the Thalmor to roam Tamriel as they please and to step on anyone who disagrees or disobeys them. Skyrim's nobility is full of boot lickers, bought and paid for by the Thalmor, I doubt the Elder Council is any different. They probably already know everything about the Empire, while no one knows a thing about them. I doubt many visitors are allowed in the Summerset Isle, Valenwood or Elsweyr. 30 years should be enough to recover and yet they have done nothing, probably because the Empire's leaders are so addicted to the Thalmor's peace and money that they don't want their whole world to shatter with another Great War. 

Tullius does not make policy.

While I agree with you about the Empire's position and idiotic inactivity, his options are limited: resign, go rogue, coup d' etat, ferment revolution.

I think you are right that the best end for both sides would be an immediate cessation of hositilites and allow the natural bonds between the imperals and Nords (they have been traditional allies from what I understand) to heal.  But that is something that must come from Cyrodill's political leadership, not Tullius.

[LobselVith8]

Yrkoon wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

I think it far more politically viable for Ulfirc to keep Elisif around.

Indeed.  He should marry her.

Lets see what the Thalmor think of that turn of events. 

I doubt Ulfric could stomach being married to Elisif, even if the marriage was strictly political; he seems to have an incredibly low opinion of her. Elisif already conceded to Ulfric, and the Jarls allied to the Empire were deposed. And I think an independent Skyrim is enough to give the Thalmor pause.

[Splinter Cell 108]

Joy Divison wrote...


Tullius does not make policy.

While I agree with you about the Empire's position and idiotic inactivity, his options are limited: resign, go rogue, coup d' etat, ferment revolution.

I think you are right that the best end for both sides would be an immediate cessation of hositilites and allow the natural bonds between the imperals and Nords (they have been traditional allies from what I understand) to heal.  But that is something that must come from Cyrodill's political leadership, not Tullius.

Yeah, he doesn't but honestly wouldn't it be better if he did? Maybe his options are limited, so were Ulfric's when he was a subject of the Empire. Still Ulfric never got to the position Tullius is at and I can understand why he wouldn't want to do anything but still, doing nothing is worse than letting the Thalmor do as they please. 

Cyrodiil's government is the problem though, it is run by fools and while I'm not sure if Titus Mede is a fool himself but the functionaries in his government are, and they are plunging the Empire to its death. 

[Joy Divison]

^ If it were me, I would resign if I were Tullius and formally state my reasons crystal clear that a military answer to the Skyrim problem is lunacy bc/ even a military victory would not resolve the underlying problems. It is a rare bird, rarer still for a general, who are typically conservative and value such things as duty, loyalty, etc., to take one of the more ambitious, as you say, courses. If he were do do such a thing and actually succeed, he'd be one of those "great men" of history. Asking him to be one of those is a bit much, but I do think you are right that he ought to see the bigger picture. Tullius never considers the possibility that the Empire's policy and his orders are counter-productive. I do think it is fair to take him to task on this lack of perspective.

[Elhanan]

simfamSP wrote...

The way you guys speak about the characters and politics of Skyrim makes it seem that there's more depth than people give it credit for.

Quite true, at least for some stories and characters. Frostflow Lighthouse is a fairly small location, and has no dialogue, but with the included journals and overall story, may be my fave quest in the game.

That said, some stories, dialogue, etc are not the best (eg; Book of Love), and the weight of creativity then falls to the Players and their imaginations. This is why I prefer some other games; for the stories, and their telling of it. But Skyrim still remains as one of the top games I have played, and that other list is quite small.

Modifié par Elhanan, 20 novembre 2013 - 02:53 .

[Addai]

simfamSP wrote...

The way you guys speak about the characters and politics of Skyrim makes it seem that there's more depth than people give it credit for.

There is.  The people who say that the writing is bad and shallow don't know the Vehk they're talking about.  Granted, it's not spoonfed to you in cutscenes, you need to do a little digging and thinking.

[Joy Divison]

Addai67 wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

The way you guys speak about the characters and politics of Skyrim makes it seem that there's more depth than people give it credit for.

There is.  The people who say that the writing is bad and shallow don't know the Vehk they're talking about.  Granted, it's not spoonfed to you in cutscenes, you need to do a little digging and thinking.

This 100%.

[happy_daiz]

Elhanan wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

The way you guys speak about the characters and politics of Skyrim makes it seem that there's more depth than people give it credit for.

Quite true, at least for some stories and characters. Frostflow Lighthouse is a fairly small location, and has no dialogue, but with the included journals and overall story, may be my fave quest in the game.

That said, some stories, dialogue, etc are not the best (eg; Book of Love), and the weight of creativity then falls to the Players and their imaginations. This is why I prefer some other games; for the stories, and their telling of it. But Skyrim still remains as one of the top games I have played, and that other list is quite small.

I always do that Frostflow Lighthouse quest, for Sailor's Repose, as well as the Ancient Knowledge (Unfathomable Depths) and Agent of Mara (Book of Love) passive effects. I felt pretty stupid the first time I did the Frostflow one - I carried Habd's remains in my inventory for.freaking.ever, until someone in this thread told me that you had to take them up to the top of the lighthouse. Derp.

One of my other favorites is Rise in the East, which takes place at Japhet's Folly. I thought it was interesting to find Japhet himself as a Draugr, and to read up on the island itself. On the way out of the building, avoiding the cannon/mortar fire, while fighting mooks just added to the excitement.

Joy Divison wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

The way you guys speak about the characters and politics of Skyrim makes it seem that there's more depth than people give it credit for.

There is.  The people who say that the writing is bad and shallow don't know the Vehk they're talking about.  Granted, it's not spoonfed to you in cutscenes, you need to do a little digging and thinking.

This 100%.

^ Yep, I totally agree. Discovering the story for yourself, by exploring, reading, and experiencing, is what it's all about. Most of the people I've seen that poo-poo Skyrim haven't played it long enough to have a good sense of it at all. And they usually admit to not reading the books. You gotta read the books!

Modifié par happy_daiz, 20 novembre 2013 - 05:18 .

[Elhanan]

Well, one is not required to read all the literature, but the messages, journals, and other shorter texts are certainly recommended. In fact, I would pale at having to read everything, as 1 - the extant lore is massive, and 2 - hate being forced to read anything; rather stubborn and independent, in case some here have missed that quirk.....

Modifié par Elhanan, 20 novembre 2013 - 06:15 .

[LobselVith8]

I was reading up on Tullius' comments at Elewen's party, and I thought they were interesting:

"Just between you and me, a lot of what Ulfric says about the Empire is true." There's also his line: "I swear, Elewen holds these parties just to make the Empire look bad. Almost makes me want to join the Stormcloaks." I lol'd at that last line, given the recent discussion.

Apparently, Tullius admits: "The Thalmor invited me here to remind everyone that the can tell the Empire what to do. I would refuse, but I don't want to jeopardize the peace between us."

[happy_daiz]

Elhanan wrote...

Well, one is not required to read all the literature, but the messages, journals, and other shorter texts are certainly recommended. In fact, I would pale at having to read everything, as 1 - the extant lore is massive, and 2 - hate being forced to read anything; rather stubborn and independent, in case some here have missed that quirk.....

Maybe I should have been more specific. You don't have to read Tales of a Khajiit Fur Trader and the Lusty Argonian Maid (etc.) if you don't want to, but if you find journals in dungeons, they're usually related to anything that might have happened there. Those, I think you should read. But they're also optional.


I finished up the Companions questline a couple of days ago, and re-read Kodlak's journal. That's still one of my favorites. The feels!

[Elhanan]

ToaKFT is top notch, but do not really care for the LAM spam; as prolific as Uncommon Taste. And Kodlak's journal is another perfect illustration of why the lesser tomes should be read by all Players, if possible. Recently gave this same advice to my brother for Frostglow Lighthouse, and he said it entirely changed the quest for him.

[LobselVith8]

happy_daiz wrote...

Maybe I should have been more specific. You don't have to read Tales of a Khajiit Fur Trader and the Lusty Argonian Maid (etc.) if you don't want to, but if you find journals in dungeons, they're usually related to anything that might have happened there. Those, I think you should read. But they're also optional.


I finished up the Companions questline a couple of days ago, and re-read Kodlak's journal. That's still one of my favorites. The feels!

I love the journals; I read them and collect them. The lore behind Mundus is interesting, and I enjoy the perspectives of the different characters.

Kodlak is a great character; his writings are a nice insight into his thoughts, and his vision of the future. I usually fill the gap between the Companion quests with other quests that would (in theory) earn some fame and prestige, since it's a bit too brief to earn your way into the Circle.

[Splinter Cell 108]

My favorite book is the detailing of the Great War by that Imperial legate, makes you wish a conflict of that magnitude was going on. They had better put Great War II in the next game, regardless of where it takes places. If you ask me its starting to look like Tamriel is headed for a bad time in the next few years.

The Oblivion crisis really did have an effect on Tamriel, most of these things came as a result of it.

[happy_daiz]

Two of my other favorites are The Locked Room and Wraith's Wedding Dowry. I re-read those every time I see them. There are lots of other really good ones that I'm forgetting about.

And I always collect The Wolf Queen books. They look great on my bookshelves, arranged in a set.

Modifié par happy_daiz, 20 novembre 2013 - 06:51 .

[Addai]

Elhanan wrote...

Well, one is not required to read all the literature, but the messages, journals, and other shorter texts are certainly recommended. In fact, I would pale at having to read everything, as 1 - the extant lore is massive, and 2 - hate being forced to read anything; rather stubborn and independent, in case some here have missed that quirk.....

Sure, it's not required, you can easily play Elder Scrolls as a LOTR knockoff fantasy action RPG and probably the majority of players do.  But the lore is there if you want to delve, and people who complain about the shallowness of the writing 9 times out of 10 don't bother.  Maybe they'd prefer if it was a Bioware game or a JRPG where everything is put into long, boring cutscenes, but I'm glad Bethesda doesn't listen to them.