37007 réponses à ce sujet

[Br3admax]

I believe that you have to remove other people of power that are there. My place in the Civil War questline sometimes effects this.

[Splinter Cell 108]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm curious, what is supposed to trigger the appearance of Proventus, Siddgeir, and Elisif at the Thalmor Embassy, when the Dragonborn infiltrates the party?

Its not really supposed to "trigger", that part is broken, usually most people show up at the Thalmor embassy with the exception of Baalgruf which shows up only when he sides with the Empire. I think General Tullius is another person who has special condition to show up. 

Otherise, if you're on PC then the Imperial jarls, Erikur, Maven, Orthus Endario, Razelan and Ondolemar show up if you use the unofficial patches of course. As for consoles, I have no clue as to how that works and since its a bug it might as well be as random as anything. I doubt there's any way to get any specific person to show up, aside from Tullius and Baalgruf, and even then they may even not show up at all if that bug decides that to put other people there.  

[blaidfiste]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm curious, what is supposed to trigger the appearance of Proventus, Siddgeir, and Elisif at the Thalmor Embassy, when the Dragonborn infiltrates the party?

I've gotten them to show regularly after becoming their Thane or doing quests for them.  Ilgrod the Elder is hilarious if you ask for her help.

[Abraham_uk]

 I'm not talking about MMO's and spin off games.

I'm talking about the main series. Skyrim V ditched classes.
Do you think this is a good direction for the main series?

[Yrkoon]

Abraham_uk wrote...

 I'm not talking about MMO's and spin off games.

I'm talking about the main series. Skyrim V ditched classes.
Do you think this is a good direction for the main series?

Yes and No.  Perhaps even maybe.  And here comes a rant.

On the one hand,  No.  Classless chargens are a terrible idea.  They're a direct assault on the entire RPG concept.  After all, what is an RPG?  Answer:  An RPG is a game where the player gets to ROLE PLAY a character he/she has created.  Well?  If  the ability to choose my profession is taken away from me, then all that is left is  to roleplay  what the game's   plot allows me to role-play.... and nothing else.   Yuck.    Usually, this is reeks of lazy game design.   And  It leads to game experiences that are a bit too  same-same  from one playthrough to the next,  and far too  shallow for my tastes.  A *good* RPG  should  allow you to roleplay both the plot elements, and the class elements, as well as the class elements as they pertain to the plot.     For example,  when I'm  playing a mage, I'm going to  want to act and react to   events that occur in the game differently than when I'm playing  as a warrior.  I'll dress differently;  I'll  ally myself with different factions;  And if the game features a  dynamic dialogue system,  then I'll even talk differently.


On the other hand, Skyrim has  proven that you can have a classless system and not lose ANY  Role-playing elements.  This is a small miracle, actually.  It defies logic.  Although to be fair, I'd argue that Skyrim  managed to succeed  here    only  because it actually DIDN'T do away with the class system entirely.  They're still there.  They've just been broken up into a bajillion different skills, and then it's up to the player to take the right combination of skills to BE the mage.  or the warrior, or the rogue, etc. 

So to answer your question specifically,  I'd say yes.  If the Future of the series copies Skyrim's  way of handling things, then it is a good direction.  But lets keep in mind that Skyrim, in more ways than not, tends to  be the exception, and not the Rule when we're having these types of discussions.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 02 décembre 2013 - 10:15 .

[Addai]

They didn't really ditch classes, they just put them under the hood. There are several nods to traditional classes, for instance the Guardian Stones and Oghma Infinium that are arranged by warrior, mage and thief. Beyond that you're free to create your own builds, which is what you could do in Oblivion with custom classes anyway.

I don't miss them, at all.

[mybudgee]

The goal of an RPG dev is to give the player as much choice as possible

[Joy Divison]

Abraham_uk wrote...

 I'm not talking about MMO's and spin off games.

I'm talking about the main series. Skyrim V ditched classes.
Do you think this is a good direction for the main series?

Yes, Yes, Yes, and Yes.  I *hate* being restricted to playing what other people think is a mage, cleric, thief, or whatever.  Put in the mechanics and let the players pick what they want instead of making arbitrary decisions of X class can't do Y but gets Z power.

There is something to Yrkon's point: multiple playthroughs can get to be a bit the same and there is something to the profession aspect of roleplay.  But I think this is mostly a failing of the PC...do I really need to think of the archetypical wizard with the goofy hat to properly role-play a mage?  And if I'm so attached to the sneak mechanic that I always use it no matter if I'm heavy armor paladin or Merlin, that's my bad, not the game designer.

This may be a bold statement, but I've come to think Skyrim's "class" and leveling progression is the best I've ever seen, at least conceptually (note: this is quite different with regards to execution: about half the perks need revision and some trees should be merged and replaced with others).  I like the many leveled, gradual growth in power.  I like that you get better at something only by actually using it.  I like that I pick the abilities and not have them assigned by the game developer.  Do we really need attributes like strength, wisdom, endurance, and what not?  I don't think *any* RPGs I've played got these right or assigned the proper importance of them.  If I was an adventurer in Tamriel, the Forgotten Realms, or whatever roleplay setting there was, without question the attribute I would want the most regardless of what "class" I am is intelligence.  The big, dumb fighter that works so well mechanically in these types of games probably wouldn't survive a "real" adventure.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 02 décembre 2013 - 11:43 .

[blaidfiste]

Abraham_uk wrote...

 I'm not talking about MMO's and spin off games.

I'm talking about the main series. Skyrim V ditched classes.
Do you think this is a good direction for the main series?

Nothing has changed really.  I can still make a Nightblade in Skyrim.  In the previous games I had to tweak the wonky preset builds to get the character to work properly.  Example below. 

Nightblades are spellcasters who use their magics to enhance mobility, concealment, and stealthy close combat. They have a sinister reputation, since many nightblades are thieves, enforcers, assassins, or covert agents.

Specialization: Magic
Attributes: Willpower, Speed
Major Skills:Mysticism Illusion Alteration Sneak Short Blade
Minor Skills:Light Armor Unarmored Destruction Marksman Security
Spells:Shield (Shield 5 points for 30 seconds on self)
Water Walking (Water Walking for 60 seconds on self)
Fire Bite (Fire Damage 15-30 points on touch)
Chameleon (Chameleon 10% for 30 seconds on self)
Sanctuary (Sanctuary 10 points for 30 seconds on self)
Detect Creature (Detect Animal 50-150 feet for 5 seconds on self)

Modifié par blaidfiste, 03 décembre 2013 - 01:52 .

[LobselVith8]

What do you think would be the ramifications of letting Madanach live, or killing him, in terms of the narrative? We never really see how the Forsworn react to his return, or his demise, and I'm curious if anyone gave any thought to what might ensue as a result. The Forsworn seem to have other leaders now (like the Matriarch), while Madanach seemed to have some still under his command (even in prison).

[Splinter Cell 108]

I guess if he's allowed to live the Forsworn have a maniac to rally behind, a bad idea if you ask me. If he can convince a bunch of prisoners to join his cause he must be very persuasive, not everyone in that prison was a forsworn.

If he is killed he could become a martyr and people would still rally around him, but even then this is only if they found out and how would they most forsworn don't know that he is alive and everyone who did know except for Thongvor Silverblood is dead and I don't think he'll be too keen on telling them, especially if he's jarl. If it were my choice, I'd drive off the Forsworn from Markarth, they are a bunch of daedra worshipping fanatics who sacrifice people and consort with Hagravens to turn their own into zombies with super powers.

Nobody likes them anyway, I'm sure they've probably raided around Hammerfell and High Rock, Bretons don't see them as kin and I doubt the Redguard would have any sympathy for them either, especially because they use dark magic, disliked by most Redguards.

[Abraham_uk]

There is a mod that allows you to join the Forsworn and even choose the Forsworn race.
Sadly I'm a PS3 player, so no modding for me.

[Splinter Cell 108]

Abraham_uk wrote...

There is a mod that allows you to join the Forsworn and even choose the Forsworn race.
Sadly I'm a PS3 player, so no modding for me.

Forsworn are Bretons, so in the end you can still "choose" their race. Nonetheless, I don't think anyone who is sane would want to join those creeps. 

[happy_daiz]

^ Yeah. I like Bretons and all (well, my characters being Breton, that is), but those people are messed up. The whole Hagraven/Briar Heart thing alone is pretty appalling. If you want to be a Forsworn so bad, couldn't you just wear the Armor of the Old Gods, and be a total jerkwad, and be done with it?

Modifié par happy_daiz, 03 décembre 2013 - 06:12 .

[LobselVith8]

Splinter Cell 108 wrote...

Abraham_uk wrote...

There is a mod that allows you to join the Forsworn and even choose the Forsworn race.
Sadly I'm a PS3 player, so no modding for me.

Forsworn are Bretons, so in the end you can still "choose" their race. Nonetheless, I don't think anyone who is sane would want to join those creeps. 

Yes, the Reachmen are primarily Breton, and fairly indistinguishable from Bretons ethnically (as we know from Breton chef Anton). I can see why some would roleplay as one; their is a sympathetic tone for the loss of their land and the horrors that transpired with the loss of their independent kingdom once the Empire reclaimed the Reach, although their own transgressions against anyone who isn't a Reachmen (and even some who are, like Ainethach, who is harassed by the Silver-bloods and the Forsworn despite being a Reachman) end up making them as bad as the people who committed transgressions against them.

[Splinter Cell 108]

But that's the thing, it was never their land to begin with. It was Dwarven land before they ever "claimed" it.

[Addai]

Eh, Tamriel is the starry heart and where all the Ehlnofey originated so there's no "originally ours" for anybody.

[LobselVith8]

happy_daiz wrote...

^ Yeah. I like Bretons and all (well, my characters being Breton, that is), but those people are messed up. The whole Hagraven/Briar Heart thing alone is pretty appalling. If you want to be a Forsworn so bad, couldn't you just wear the Armor of the Old Gods, and be a total jerkwad, and be done with it?

It would be interesting if the Armor of the Old Gods worked like faction armor, and the Forsworn didn't try to lop off your head on sight, especially if you helped Madanach escape.

That makes me wonder why Thongvor doesn't react to you escaping with Madanach (although he's angry at Madanach escaping custody), since Thonar's mistress Lisbet and others react to you allegedly working with the Forsworn (as though you are one of them).

I wonder if there are any pros to sparing Madanach, given the dismal outlook addressed previously. I suppose sparing Madanach would, in theory, provide a resource for Forsworn magic from Madanach himself - Neloth was certainly interested in the Briar hearts of Briarhearts.

[happy_daiz]

^ That would be pretty awesome. Guards seem to be the only ones that recognize if you're wearing bandit, DB, TG, etc. armor. Nobody else really seems to care.

In regard to Madanach, I have no idea. I've spared him both times I've done the Cidna Mine quest. I figured that he'd given me some cool armor, so he probably earned his life. If Skyrim was a real place, and I lived there, I'm sure I'd have a very short career, for being so forgiving.

[Abraham_uk]

What I don't like about the Forsworn is their hostility to passers by.

One moment I'm casually making my way to Markarth minding my own business, then suddenly they come out of nowhere and start attacking. Luckily I'm the Dragonborn so they're not to bad. But for all the other passers by that they kill without any remorse.

Though who can blame them. It is their land that has been taken from them. I doubt we'd be so welcoming if our homes were taken from us.


Besides. The Forsworn way of life isn't bad, it's just flat out strange and alien. The whole Blackbriar business and Hagraven. It is just another culture. Who am I to throw scorn at them? It just simply is the way it is. Another culture. Alien. Not immoral. Just alien. Just like when they wear very little clothing in arguably the coldest and harshest province of Tamriel. Not immoral. Just alien.

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 03 décembre 2013 - 09:52 .

[Splinter Cell 108]

Sorry but just another culture doesn't cut it. If "just another culture" kidnapped your family and used them as a sacrifice, you wouldn't be saying that. There's a reason they are hated by everyone, Bretons included.

Attacking innocent travelers who may have nothing to do with their whole "cause" is not okay, it never is, I don't care what has been done to them or how they have suffered, they have no right to assault people because they enter "their" land. It isn't their land and has never been, their cause is a lie and every time they try to prove that it is true, they resort barbarism worse than that of their enemies.

I don't think they get to just say "we're another culture, we can do what we want", what they do affects everyone around them, whether they like it or not, I'm sure the Dunmer also said that slavery was part of their culture, does that mean that the Argonians should just shut up and accept it? No, it doesn't and the Dunmer paid dearly for that. The Forsworn shouldn't be given any more sympathy because their culture demands ritualistic sacrifices and daedra worship.

Besides, if you were to put the situation in the other way, do you think the Forsworn would tolerate others? So far they have proven this to be false, by attacking any and all travelers in the Reach, regardless of their associations. To them there is only two sides, them and everyone else and if you're not one of them they'll kill you, they don't care. If that is inherent to their culture, then it is wrong, some stuff cannot be tolerated, and hiding it behind culture is irresponsible. 

Modifié par Splinter Cell 108, 03 décembre 2013 - 10:03 .

[Abraham_uk]

Is that true?

I just assumed that they were just another territorial tribe with a strange culture.

Kidnapping and sacrificing. That is just plain outrageous.

[Splinter Cell 108]

Abraham_uk wrote...

Is that true?

I just assumed that they were just another territorial tribe with a strange culture.

Kidnapping and sacrificing. That is just plain outrageous.

Yeah, I don't know where but one of the Bretons in Markarth talks about it, he doesn't mention kidnapping but I don't think they'll sacrifice their own people, besides in one of  Markarth's quests they kidnap a little girl. Most sensible people won't kill you if you cross their territory, maybe they might take you captive, but they can't hide behind argument that they're an ignorant tribe.

Most of them are cultured, look at Nepos The Nose, the prisoners and Cidhna mine, they're not just tribal folk as it may appear. They may dress and look as such but that's because of their culture not because of their ignorance. 

[happy_daiz]

^ Be sure to speak to Degaine in Markarth, to get his quest to steal the Dibella statue. If you get caught, you'll start a new questline which will illustrate this point nicely. The kidnapping, that is.

Also, do you think Briar Hearts are willing participants in getting their hearts ripped out, and replaced with a Briar heart? I've even seen giants sacrificed on Forsworn altars; do you think they willingly left their mammoths, to be killed by a Hagraven? For their toes? I doubt they went along with that willingly. And if they did, yikes.

Edit: Ninja'd. I'm too slow.

Modifié par happy_daiz, 03 décembre 2013 - 10:32 .

[Addai]

The irony about the Forsworn is that one text (from Daggerfall, I believe) suggests they are descendants of Atmorans who settled in that area. So they're originally more Nord than most Bretons. Anyway, as I said, all human and Mer life originated in Tamriel, so it's not "indigenous inhabitants" vs. "outside invaders." Only competing claims to different patches of turf.

I think the sacrifices are probably needed to make the briarheart transfusion work. You can't just turn a pinecone into a living heart, you have to borrow the life force from somewhere else.

About Bretons and Forsworn, there's a text also from Daggerfall about Forsworn attacking the city. The writer calls them daedra-loving heathens. They're not popular folks wherever they go.

Modifié par Addai67, 03 décembre 2013 - 10:59 .