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[LobselVith8]

Yrkoon wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

 if you read in game books, you would know that the redguards are actively fighting the Thalmor in present day. 

Which makes you wonder why Hammerfell would send  a bunch of Alikr warriors to Skyrim to retrieve one little redguard woman.... and totally ignore Skyrim's wandering Thalmor Patrols, and it's Thalmor embasy, and it's  Northwatch Keep.

A traitor who was responsible for the fall of Taneth during the war against the Dominion, and fled Hammerfell - if you believe Kematu's version. And the leaders in Hammerfell responsible for sending the Alik'r might assume Ulfric will address the latter if he can wrest control of Skyrim from the Empire.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 24 décembre 2013 - 01:51 .

[Yrkoon]

Joy Divison wrote...
So because the Alikir are not nice you sided with a Thalmor lackey?

  Sorta?

Ok, I've never roleplayed a super politically savvy statesman.  As far as my Nords, Orcs, and  Bretons are concerned,  this issue  begins as a He-said, she-said.  It is then up to me to decide my next move based on what I observe after that.

So what do I observe? 

One side  is  an attractive woman who serves me ale, then pleads for my help after I calm her down.

vs.

The other  side, which    tells me to walk away if I'm not happy with their vagueness,  then assures me I'm going to die if I seek their leader.  Additionally, I see them picking on  Innocent redguard women on the roads.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 24 décembre 2013 - 01:19 .

[LobselVith8]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Can you guys believe we are about to hit 1400 pages?

It is shocking to consider that Skyrim has made such a long thread on a COMPETITORS website.

It's a great game with a rich lore that's been built up across other entertaining precedessors. It's also nice to have a place to discuss the game with others who genuinely enjoy Skyrim, even if we do disagree about certain parts of it.

[Joy Divison]

Yrkoon wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...
So because the Alikir are not nice you sided with a Thalmor lackey?

  Sorta?

Ok, I've never roleplayed a super politically savvy statesman.  As far as my Nords, Orcs, and  Bretons are concerned,  this issue  begins as a He-said, she-said.  It is then up to me to decide my next move based on what I observe after that.

So what do I observe? 

One side  is  an attractive woman who serves me ale, then pleads for my help after I calm her down.

vs.

The other  side, which    tells me to walk away if I'm not happy with their vagueness,  then assures me I'm going to die if I seek their leader.  Additionally, I see them picking on  Innocent redguard women on the roads.

But that's the thing, I don't think you have to be a politically saavy statesman.  Click on the link in the previous page and see how I roleplayed Desdenova.

Another aspect of Saadia's story that is a lie is her claim that Kematu & his gang are only in it for the money.  The Alikir are not mercs.  The guy in jail who is left behind because he was captured is proof that they operate on a code that is totally different from mercenaries who are in it only for the money.  I suppose you could claim that mercs might not bail out one of their own (debatable), but why would the Alikir in jail talk about brotherhood and honor if he was a merc? 

Nords and orcs, they're supposed to be all about honor/tradition/warrior code - I think if you roleplaying that aspect, your DB would recognize Saadia is full of horker dung.

Now, if you are roleplaying a DB that is compeltely indifferent to the Thalmor, liars, and is a wanna-be internal affairs investigator, then by all means side with Saadia.

[Yrkoon]

Joy Divison wrote...
Nords and orcs, they're supposed to be all about honor/tradition/warrior code - I think if you roleplaying that aspect, your DB would recognize Saadia is full of horker dung.

Or he just  wouldn't give a crap about foreign politics.  Yes, Nords and Orcs are  fiercely honor and tradition bound, but often times that equates to  a heavy  nationalistic undertone.     Thus, if you're playing one of those "Skyrim belongs to the Nords!" type characters,  I can see one of three valid responses:

1) wash your hands of the whole thing and not get involved in that quest
2) Kill   both sides.  Saadia because she pulls a knife at you in a bar, and the Alikr because they  don't belong in skyrim.
3) Side with the tavern wench, then drive out those curved-sword-wielding foreigners who dare to try to enforce their strange justice on your land.

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean she went to a Hold that isn't allied with the Stormcloaks, and has an Imperial and Thalmor presence roaming freely? That doesn't exactly persuade me to buy into her story.

LOL

I mean she went to a city with Greymanes   roaming the streets and frequenting the tavern.  And a noisy very anti-thalmor preacher screaming his  anti-thalmor gospel day and night  in the  town square  in front of a  nord mead hall filled with   warriors who's only political dilemma is  "Sovngard or Hercine's hunting grounds?",  while the jarl who lives on top of the hill can't seem to take a side.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 24 décembre 2013 - 02:27 .

[LobselVith8]

Joy Divison wrote...

But that's the thing, I don't think you have to be a politically saavy statesman.  Click on the link in the previous page and see how I roleplayed Desdenova. 

It must be nice for her to finally have a home - an estate overlooking the water, no less. She's come a long way from Helgen.

[Joy Divison]

Yrkoon wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...
Nords and orcs, they're supposed to be all about honor/tradition/warrior code - I think if you roleplaying that aspect, your DB would recognize Saadia is full of horker dung.

Yes, Nords and Orcs are  fiercely honor and tradition bound, but often times that equates to  a heavy  nationalistic undertone.

I disagree.  I've hung around enough soldiers in my lifetime and read more of their writings to know that in the minds of those who value warrior ethos, stuff like honor, duty, and courage trumped nationality, politics, race, etc.  If these people actually value stuff like that and aren't playing it lip-service, they will recognzie the Aliir as such.  examples in this game are Durnehviir, the Orcs in the strongholds who recognize you as blood-kin, and Kematu himself once you reach him.

This doesn't mean those "Skyrim belongs to the Nords!" type characters won't act as you say, that is:

1) wash your hands of the whole thing and not get involved in that quest
2) Kill   both sides.  Saadia because she pulls a knife at you in a bar, and the Alikr because they  don't belong in skyrim.
3) Side with the tavern wench, then drive out those curved-sword-wielding foreigners who dare to try to enforce their strange justice on your land.

Just that those characters value something else more than the warrior creed.  A warrior will recognize the Alikir as such and know Saadia is lying.

I also think you underestimate how much Whiterun is ostensibly Imperial aligned.  Whiterun has a red flag on the battle maps, however horse Heimskr gets, Jarl Balgruuf still forbids Talos worship in the city (he unequivcally says so to the Old Greymane who argues with him about the point), the Thalmor are all over his hold, and the "neutral" Balgruuf is part of Tulius's delegation in Season Unending and at that conferance professes his past and current loyalty to the Empire.

LobselVith8 wrote...

It must be nice for her to finally have a home - an estate overlooking the water, no less. She's come a long way from Helgen.

It is .  And she has come a long way since Helgan.  Now I just have to make it something more than a chest and a roof .

[LobselVith8]

Yrkoon wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean she went to a Hold that isn't allied with the Stormcloaks, and has an Imperial and Thalmor presence roaming freely? That doesn't exactly persuade me to buy into her story.

LOL

I mean she went to a city with Greymanes   roaming the streets and frequenting the tavern.  And a noisy very anti-thalmor preacher screaming his  anti-thalmor gospel day and night  in the  town square  in front of a  nord mead hall filled with   warriors who's only political dilemma is  "Sovngard or Hercine's hunting grounds?",  while the jarl who lives on top of the hill can't seem to take a side. 

A city with the Battle-borns as an affluent family with Imperial ties, a smith who has recently been commissioned to make weapons for the Legion, Hold guards who express disdain over Stormcloak attire, and a Steward who approves of the Thalmor. A preacher and a relatively powerless family with members who disapprove of the Thalmor and the Legion don't make Whiterun a haven from the Dominion.

[Yrkoon]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...


LOL

I mean she went to a city with Greymanes   roaming the streets and frequenting the tavern.  And a noisy very anti-thalmor preacher screaming his  anti-thalmor gospel day and night  in the  town square  in front of a  nord mead hall filled with   warriors who's only political dilemma is  "Sovngard or Hercine's hunting grounds?",  while the jarl who lives on top of the hill can't seem to take a side. 

A city with the Battle-borns as an affluent family with Imperial ties, a smith who has recently been commissioned to make weapons for the Legion, Hold guards who express disdain over Stormcloak attire, and a Steward who approves of the Thalmor. A preacher and a relatively powerless family with members who disapprove of the Thalmor and the Legion don't make Whiterun a haven from the Dominion.

Correct, instead, this all paints Whiterun as undecided, or  as I said before, the closest thing to Neutral that we have in Skyrim.

By the way, if you'll notice one thing... my examples are the superficial stuff.  The stuff   that accosts a visitor's senses when he's new to the city.   Saadia  would never know, for example, whether the  Graymanes are powerless, nor would she ever know  the personal opinions of the Steward.  lol

Joy Divison wrote...

Just that those characters value something else more than the warrior creed.  A warrior will recognize the Alikir as such and know Saadia is lying.

A warrior wouldn't care if Saadia is lying. 

Nor does the "warrior creed" mean that all warriors share a Kinship.  How many Nords do you see hanging out in the Orc Strongholds?  How many Orcs are members of Jorvaskar?  Hell,  how many REDUARDS do you see in either one?

Modifié par Yrkoon, 24 décembre 2013 - 04:10 .

[Addai]

Yrkoon wrote...
First off,  it's fairly obvious that the jailed  one did quite a bit more than simply try to enter Whiterun.   The proof of this is that there's 2 other Alikr who  enter the city, then confront its guards, and they don't get jailed, do they.

He tried to sneak into the city- or he punched a guard who wouldn't let him in. There's no big mystery here.

Second,  Kematu is using bandits as muscle (and in fact,  living  in a bandit den with them) when he doesn't have to.    The rest of his contingent is hanging out in a tavern in Rorikstead without any problems at all  (the other tavern patrons express complete indifference to their presence)

So? Like I said, the bandits are hired muscle. They say so if you sneak in to the cave entrance. Two of them are discussing about what the Alik'r want and how it's only their gold that matters.

They're hunting down a traitor who betrayed an entire city to the freaking Thalmor. That outweighs some strong-arm tactics. This quest is basically a damsel in distress trap. You're supposed to feel sorry for the poor helpless tavern girl.

[LobselVith8]

Yrkoon wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

A city with the Battle-borns as an affluent family with Imperial ties, a smith who has recently been commissioned to make weapons for the Legion, Hold guards who express disdain over Stormcloak attire, and a Steward who approves of the Thalmor. A preacher and a relatively powerless family with members who disapprove of the Thalmor and the Legion don't make Whiterun a haven from the Dominion. 

Correct, instead, this all paints Whiterun as undecided, or  as I said before, the closest thing to Neutral that we have in Skyrim.

Wouldn't someone running from the Thalmor want to go to a Hold that openly opposes the Thalmor? Assuming the person actually wants to avoid the Thalmor, of course.

Yrkoon wrote...

By the way, if you'll notice one thing... my examples are the superficial stuff.  The stuff   that accosts a visitor's senses when he's new to the city.   Saadia  would never know, for example, whether the  Graymanes are powerless, nor would she ever know  the personal opinions of the Steward.  lol 

You seem to think she would investigate enough to know about the Jarl being indecisive, as well as about the political leanings of the Grey-Manes. But since we're already ignoring the obvious fact that she says she fled Hammerfell as a result of speaking out against the Thalmor, I'm not going to be persuaded to think she's innocent.

[Joy Divison]

Yrkoon wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

Just that those characters value something else more than the warrior creed.  A warrior will recognize the Alikir as such and know Saadia is lying.

A warrior wouldn't care if Saadia is lying.

True, but my point was that a warrior would know she is lying ... which is the crux of the quest. 

Nor does the "warrior creed" mean that all warriors share a Kinship.  How many Nords do you see hanging out in the Orc Strongholds?  How many Orcs are members of Jorvaskar?  Hell,  how many REDUARDS do you see in either one?

Warriors have to prove themselves in combat for this kinship to emerge.  See Durnehviir, Orc Blood-kin quest, Kematu meeting, etc.  I'd say in the mind of a warrior, it's only a minority of warriors and soldiers that actually exemplify this ideal well enough to earn such a distiction.  In short, just because one picks up a blade and fights for a living, doesn't make him a "real" warrior.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 24 décembre 2013 - 04:52 .

[Yrkoon]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Wouldn't someone running from the Thalmor want to go to a Hold that openly opposes the Thalmor?

Again, you're assuming  that political ESP is some racial trait.  When I first came to whiterun, it very much felt anti-thalmor to me.   It's the only city  in Skyrim with a 24 hour talk-radio show devoted to thalmor bashing.

Let me turn that question around now.   if Saadia  is such a thalmor lackey, why  don't we see her  waiting tables in Solitude?  or Markarth?
 

Assuming the person actually wants to avoid the Thalmor, of course.

Wait....  She's trying to avoid the Alik'r.  That's really the only thing we know, and the only thing that matters.  She trusts no one in Whiterun..... including the imperial guards.

You seem to think she would investigate enough to know about the Jarl being indecisive, as well as about the political leanings of the Grey-Manes..

Both of these facts are easily attainable by just hanging out at the  bannered mare.  That's... why I cited them.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 24 décembre 2013 - 05:27 .

[Elhanan]

Addai67 wrote...

He tried to sneak into the city- or he punched a guard who wouldn't let him in. There's no big mystery here.

So? Like I said, the bandits are hired muscle. They say so if you sneak in to the cave entrance. Two of them are discussing about what the Alik'r want and how it's only their gold that matters.

They're hunting down a traitor who betrayed an entire city to the freaking Thalmor. That outweighs some strong-arm tactics. This quest is basically a damsel in distress trap. You're supposed to feel sorry for the poor helpless tavern girl.

So this Alik'ir warrior that is arrested for no big deal sells out info for early release? To me, it reinforces that these men are simply mercs. Same with the hiring of bandits cause only gold matters.

And if Saddia betrayed this city to the Thalmor, that seems to have failed as it is still under the reign of Hammerfell. In such a case, it would seem more logical for the Thalmor to be in pursuit.

And if one aids her, she continues her job serving drinks, cooking, mopping floors, etc; not exactly the easy life.

[Yrkoon]

And why is anyone's actions in Hammerfell our concern anyway? I understand the need to stick it to the thalmor any chance we get, but the two sides are are NOT thalmor, they're redguards who have brought their little 2-way drama to Skyrim and are asking for the DB's help.

I fail to see why it's relevant whether one side or the other is lying. However, if the DB is actually a Redguard himself, and has crafted himself a background that involves hunting down all Hammerfell Traitors then sure, ok, listen to both sides, then stamp the scarlet letter upon Saadia, the-double-agent-bartender-thalmor-friend....and be done with it.

But for everyone else, you probably should think twice before awarding your medals of honor to a group of Alik'r who have gone about their  hunt in a rather foul way.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 24 décembre 2013 - 05:39 .

[Ozzy]

I've played it both ways. On one of my earlier (and later abandoned) saves, I saw it as my duty as Thane of Whiterun to protect the citizens of the Hold. I protected Saadia from the "Alik'r". One woman with a dagger versus a group of warriors. It's not like Saadia runs off after you help her either. She returns and mops floors at the inn. She's hardly living the high life.

For my current Redguard, it would be interesting I suppose. Because I only came to Whiterun relatively late in my playthrough (after visiting ever city except for Markarth, Riften and Windhelm), I haven't come across the quest yet. I did however come across a pair of them accosting a woman near a mill in southern Eastmarch. They had her right up at the edge of a cliff, lol. I stepped by to see if there was something I could do but nope. At least they left her alone and she walked the right away afterwards instead of plunging down. 

Modifié par AstusOz, 24 décembre 2013 - 05:58 .

[LobselVith8]

Yrkoon wrote...
 

LobselVith8 wrote...

Assuming the person actually wants to avoid the Thalmor, of course. 

Wait....  She's trying to avoid the Alik'r.  That's really the only thing we know, and the only thing that matters.  She trusts no one in Whiterun..... including the imperial guards.

Who she claims are assassins in the employ of the Thalmor, because she says she fled Hammerfell for speaking out against the Dominion. You know, that former province of the Empire that refused to capitulate to the WGC and went to war with the Thalmor for years.

Ykroon wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You seem to think she would investigate enough to know about the Jarl being indecisive, as well as about the political leanings of the Grey-Manes.. 

Both of these facts are easily attainable by just hanging out at the  bannered mare.  That's... why I cited them. 

So you take issue with my references to Whiterun hardly being a sanctuary against the Thalmor because you think characters will have the exact same conversations in Saadia's presence that they do with the Dragonborn, and therefore that's all you think is applicable?

[Yrkoon]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Who she claims are assassins in the employ of the Thalmor, because she says she fled Hammerfell for speaking out against the Dominion. You know, that former province of the Empire that refused to capitulate to the WGC and went to war with the Thalmor for years.

So?

More to the point:  This matters to  every   Dragonborn  because...?

You know  what I think  the  real  problem here is?  You people  don't know  how to role play.  You start a new character and automatically give him instinctive encyclopedic knowledge  of  lore that he  couldn't possibly have.   You never for a second stop and think to yourself:  "wait a minute... how  would my character know the  detailed history of the Alik'r? Or Hammerfell?

Play a Redguard who  himself  recently  escaped Hammerfell, and  maybe your  arguments on this matter might make some logical sense.  Or, Escape Helgen and roleplay a  history buff,  and only do the Saadia Quest  after  100 hours of book collecting, and maybe you just might be able to reasonably assume   that Saadia is  lying and the Alik'r are telling the truth.  Until then,  this is a pure He Said-She Said and any *good* role player will  need to judge the two sides'  ACTIONS.

So you take issue with my references to Whiterun hardly being a sanctuary against the Thalmor because you think characters will have the exact same conversations in Saadia's presence that they do with the Dragonborn, and therefore that's all you think is applicable?

No, I take issue with  your notion that Saadia  would get the subtle references you cited.    For example (again) She would NOT know the Steward's opinions on matters, since  the Steward of Whiterun does not   set foot outside Dragon's Reach, nor will you ever hear the patrons of the  Bannered Mare discuss the Steward'[s opinions of the Thalmor.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 24 décembre 2013 - 02:19 .

[Boycott Bioware]

A group of assassins will not wait to kill whoever breaching their base. Saadia is lying. If Alik'r are assassins, Dragonborn will be dead when entering their base, just imagine, you cannot see anything because of those rushing water. If they are assassins, they will not use swords for ambush.

[Yrkoon]

Is Saadia Breaching their base? Or did she flee hammerfell outright and make a new home in Whiterun, were the Alik'r have no foothold and are not welcome?

The Alik'r are  just lousy bounty hunters  who  seek others to do their job for them.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 24 décembre 2013 - 02:26 .

[Boycott Bioware]

You guys may argue that Dark Brotherhood assassins will trying to kill you by charging with their sword, well, they are not the real Dark Brotherhood, they are fools, Dark Brotherhood wannabes, that is why they fall to such low. the Dark Brotherhood is no more, the one who run it are not the real one.

By the way, in TES, assassinations are all done by Dark Brotherhood, if Saadia was indeed hunted by assassins, it should be Dark Brotherhood. No one can assassinate peoples other than Dark Brotherhood, it will not be allowed by Sithis.

So Alik'r are not assassins, Saadia is lying

Modifié par Qistina, 24 décembre 2013 - 02:26 .

[Joy Divison]

Yrkoon wrote...

And why is anyone's actions in Hammerfell our concern anyway? I understand the need to stick it to the thalmor any chance we get, but the two sides are are NOT thalmor, they're redguards who have brought their little 2-way drama to Skyrim and are asking for the DB's help.

I fail to see why it's relevant whether one side or the other is lying. However, if the DB is actually a Redguard himself, and has crafted himself a background that involves hunting down all Hammerfell Traitors then sure, ok, listen to both sides, then stamp the scarlet letter upon Saadia, the-double-agent-bartender-thalmor-friend....and be done with it.

But for everyone else, you probably should think twice before awarding your medals of honor to a group of Alik'r who have gone about their  hunt in a rather foul way.

Because it doesn't matter if you're a Breton, Argonian, Nord, Dunmer or Human: nobody likes a traitorous snake.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 24 décembre 2013 - 02:25 .

[Boycott Bioware]

Another point that Saadia is lying...we can see the Alik'r questioning Redguard women all over Skyrim, if they are assassins they will do such thing. Do assassins will ask the victim to come with them? Then do assassins will argue each other "this is not the one, she don't have the scar"? "yeah, you are right"...you also can ask them what they are doing and they tell you "we are looking for a Red Guard woman..."...assassins will not do that

[Yrkoon]

Joy Divison wrote...


Because it doesn't matter if you're a Breton, Argonian, Nord, Dunmer or Human: nobody likes a traitorous snake.

As a citizen of Skyrim, my Nord has not witnessed Saadia committing a single act of treason against him or Skyrim., nor is anyone accusing her  of such a crime.... So why should he see Saadia as a traitor?


Edit:  I have a better question.  One  that maybe Desdenova can answer.  Lets suppose  I'm a high elf and  a member of the  Thalmor, and I'm in Skyrim carrying out  missions for them.  Ok, now lets say that during my  stay, I come to see the injustices committed by the Dominion and no longer wish to   be in their employ.    So I begin to sabotage their plans.  I even start killing them, ambushing their patrols, raiding their embassy  etc.

Will the Citizens of Skyrim hate me because I'm a "traitorous snake"?

Modifié par Yrkoon, 24 décembre 2013 - 02:41 .

[Joy Divison]

Yrkoon wrote...

As a citizen of Skyrim, my Nord has not witnessed Saadia committing a single act of treason against him or Skyrim. So why should he see Saadia as a traitor?

For the same reason Benedict Arnold, Vidkun Quisling, Judas Iscariot, Mir Jafar and La Malniche are seen as traitors.