37007 réponses à ce sujet

[Yrkoon]

Joy Divison wrote...


For the same reason Benedict Arnold, Vidkun Quisling, Judas Iscariot, Mir Jafar and La Malniche are seen as traitors.

...And  Ulfric Stormcloak.  He's seen as  a traitor too.  To an entire empire in fact.  But a huge portion of his countrymen love him for it.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 24 décembre 2013 - 03:28 .

[Joy Divison]

Yrkoon wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...


Because it doesn't matter if you're a Breton, Argonian, Nord, Dunmer or Human: nobody likes a traitorous snake.

As a citizen of Skyrim, my Nord has not witnessed Saadia committing a single act of treason against him or Skyrim., nor is anyone accusing her  of such a crime.... So why should he see Saadia as a traitor?


Edit:  I have a better question.  One  that maybe Desdenova can answer.  Lets suppose  I'm a high elf and  a member of the  Thalmor, and I'm in Skyrim carrying out  missions for them.  Ok, now lets say that during my  stay, I come to see the injustices committed by the Dominion and no longer wish to   be in their employ.    So I begin to sabotage their plans.  I even start killing them, ambushing their patrols, raiding their embassy  etc.

Will the Citizens of Skyrim hate me because I'm a "traitorous snake"?

I *think* Desdenova would answer your question using the same thought processes *most* people would go about answering it.  The act of treason is a highly suspect act, one in itself and in a vacuum is bad and representative of a fundamental character flaw: if one is a rat/sellout/traitor, then one has no problems throwing away some formal declaration of loyalty.  That is why Machiavelli warned any would be Prince should forever be wary of and remain vigilent of those in his realm who aided said Prince by switching their loyalties from the previous regime.  There had better be a damn good reason that would explain the traitor's bloody knife that is now embedded into the back of a previous comrade.

For this Altmer Thalmor who saw the light and recognized the injustices of the Dominion, then I think most citizens of Skyrim and Desdenova for that matter would not label that Altmer a traitorous snake.  Much the same way Nelson Mandela is not seen as a terrorist or criminal even though the apartheid government of South Africa legally considered him as such.

What noble purpose could Saadia possible have had to aid the Thalmor foreign aggressors?  If it was so noble, that would have elicited more sympathy than a vague transparent lie about speaking out against the Aldmeri Dominion, no? 

[Joy Divison]

Yrkoon wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...


For the same reason Benedict Arnold, Vidkun Quisling, Judas Iscariot, Mir Jafar and La Malniche are seen as traitors.

...And  Ulfric Stormcloak.  He's seen as  a traitor too.  To an entire empire in fact.  But a huge portion of his countrymen love him for it.

No.  The people I listed have little ambiguity w/ regards to their reputation as traitors.  See above.  There is a reason I didn't put George Washington, William of Nassau, or Boudica in my original list. Or for you Braveheart fans, William Wallace.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 24 décembre 2013 - 03:35 .

[Yrkoon]

Oh for god sakes. Saadia is not in a position of power, nor is she available as a spouse, companion or a potential heir to the jarl's seat if he is deposed. As a dragonborn who's tasked with deciding her fate, we need not worry about any "fundamental character flaw" she might have.

By the way, I'm not sure how many times this has been brought up  yet, or even if it has ever been brought up at all. But if she was once a powerful noble, and is now reduced to an anonymous lifestyle of serving drinks and cleaning floors in a small tavern in a foreign country, then that is punishment enough for whatever failed political acts she committed.

And Hammerfell law is not Skyrim law. Show me the extradition treaty between Skyrim and Hammerfell. By what legal right do the Alik'r have to come and forcibly retrieve her in the first place?

Modifié par Yrkoon, 24 décembre 2013 - 03:48 .

[LobselVith8]

Yrkoon wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Who she claims are assassins in the employ of the Thalmor, because she says she fled Hammerfell for speaking out against the Dominion. You know, that former province of the Empire that refused to capitulate to the WGC and went to war with the Thalmor for years.

So?

More to the point:  This matters to  every   Dragonborn  because...?

You know  what I think  the  real  problem here is?  You people  don't know  how to role play.  You start a new character and automatically give him instinctive encyclopedic knowledge  of  lore that he  couldn't possibly have.   You never for a second stop and think to yourself:  "wait a minute... how  would my character know the  detailed history of the Alik'r? Or Hammerfell?

It's impossible for a protagonist to know that modern day Hammerfell doesn't welcome the Thalmor? That's the crux of your argument? I'm currently playing as a Dunmer, from a former province of the Empire: Morrowind. I think the Great War and the war between Hammerfell and the Dominion wouldn't have gone unnoticed, since many Dunmer frown upon the Empire and would likely see it as another sign of Imperial weakness for the Emperor to give in while Hammerfell resisted the Dominion.

This isn't CHIM we're talking about here; it's not unlikely or even difficult for a protagonist to know that Saadia's claims about having to flee Hammerfell because she opposed the Dominion are factually inaccurate.

Yrkoon wrote...

Play a Redguard who  himself  recently  escaped Hammerfell, and  maybe your  arguments on this matter might make some logical sense.  Or, Escape Helgen and roleplay a  history buff,  and only do the Saadia Quest  after  100 hours of book collecting, and maybe you just might be able to reasonably assume   that Saadia is  lying and the Alik'r are telling the truth.  Until then,  this is a pure He Said-She Said and any *good* role player will  need to judge the two sides'  ACTIONS.

If I'm playing as a character from Nirn and not as a denizen from one of the planes of Oblivion, then it's not unlikely for my protagonist to know that Hammerfell opposed the incursion of the Dominion after the Empire capitulated to the demands of the Thalmor. News travels all over, as we know from Morrowind and Oblivion; it's not as though information is isolated to respective regions. Given the Stormcloak rebellion, I wouldn't be surprised if people were making comparisons to Hammerfell taking on the Thalmor as a precedence that the Dominion could be defied. Since modern day Hammerfell is highly opposed to the Thalmor expansion, it's not unreasonable for someone other than a "history buff" to know that Saadia's claims are ludicrous.

Yrkoon wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

So you take issue with my references to Whiterun hardly being a sanctuary against the Thalmor because you think characters will have the exact same conversations in Saadia's presence that they do with the Dragonborn, and therefore that's all you think is applicable?

No, I take issue with  your notion that Saadia  would get the subtle references you cited.    For example (again) She would NOT know the Steward's opinions on matters, since  the Steward of Whiterun does not   set foot outside Dragon's Reach, nor will you ever hear the patrons of the  Bannered Mare discuss the Steward'[s opinions of the Thalmor. 

My references addressed the simple fact that I don't see Whiterun as neutral, but frankly, I take issue with the simple fact that Saadia didn't hide in Stormcloak territory or a Hold that prohibits the presence of the Thalmor or their cronies.

[Joy Divison]

Yrkoon wrote...

Oh for god sakes. Saadia is not in a position of power, nor is she available as a spouse, companion or a potential heir to the jarl's seat if he is deposed. As a dragonborn who's tasked with deciding her fate, we need not worry about any "fundamental character flaw" she might have.

Wait...didn't you bring up the point that the player should approach this from a role-play perspective rather than metagaming?  Her character and actions should be the *priority* regarding what the DB does, not whatever mechanical benefits the game would bestow.  For DB who despises the Aldmeri Dominion, and I would think this goes beyond simply my Desdenova character, the fact that she aided the Thalmor is extremely relevant.

By the way, I'm not sure how many times this has been brought up  yet, or even if it has ever been brought up at all. But if she was once a powerful noble, and is now reduced to an anonymous lifestyle of serving drinks and cleaning floors in a small tavern in a foreign country, then that is punishment enough for whatever failed political acts she committed.

It's quite possible to take that perspective.  A perspect much easier for non-Redgaurds to adopt.  In many legal systems, the penalty for punishment for treason/spying is greater than any other crime, including stuff like premediated murder, and is typically death.  If her political act was relatively minor and inconsequential, then I would suspect the folks in Hammerfell would be content with the status quo punishment of permenant exile and loss of all assets.  The fact that Saadia is heavily pursued despite the very real punishment you describe implies that her failed political act was egregious and important.  I would think that this aspect would interest DBs who are not simply Thalmor haters.

And Hammerfell law is not Skyrim law. Show me the extradition treaty between Skyrim and Hammerfell. By what legal right do the Alik'r have to come and forcibly retrieve her?

I never suggested that a DB ought to do this because they are a champion of jurisprundence.  In fact, it is the very lack of tact exhibited by the Alikir that hurt their cause as illustrated in this thread.  I asked mostly because my present character Desdenova hates the Thalmor and I don't think there is much ambiguity in who is telling the truth: Saadia or the Alikir even though the Wikis strongly suggest that there is.  So I wanted to be sure I did not miss anything.  The answers I am getting is not so much the DB should side with Saadia because she is telling the truth, rather the DB shouldn't side with the Alikir because the Alikir are mean or the DB doesn't necessarily have a real stake in the matter.  Both of which are fine depending on how one role-plays their DB.  From the game evidence provided, it would seem to me a DB who despises the Thalmor probably should take a trip to Swindler's Den and have a chat with Kematu.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 24 décembre 2013 - 04:15 .

[LobselVith8]

Elhanan wrote...

So this Alik'ir warrior that is arrested for no big deal sells out info for early release? To me, it reinforces that these men are simply mercs. Same with the hiring of bandits cause only gold matters.

He wanted his freedom, and his old life was over because he dishonored his brothers; that's basically what it proves. I would be more concerned with Saadia's claim that she fled Hammerfell for speaking out against the Dominion.

Elhanan wrote...

And if Saddia betrayed this city to the Thalmor, that seems to have failed as it is still under the reign of Hammerfell. In such a case, it would seem more logical for the Thalmor to be in pursuit.

How is it logical for the Thalmor to pursue her because they failed to defeat Hammerfell, especially if she helped him take one of their cities?

Elhanan wrote...

And if one aids her, she continues her job serving drinks, cooking, mopping floors, etc; not exactly the easy life.

If she betrayed the city to the Dominion and lead to likely atrocities committed by the Thalmor against her people (as they have done to many others), I'd say she deserves far worse.

[Elhanan]

LobselVith8 wrote...

He wanted his freedom, and his old life was over because he dishonored his brothers; that's basically what it proves. I would be more concerned with Saadia's claim that she fled Hammerfell for speaking out against the Dominion.

How is it logical for the Thalmor to pursue her because they failed to defeat Hammerfell, especially if she helped him take one of their cities?

If she betrayed the city to the Dominion and lead to likely atrocities committed by the Thalmor against her people (as they have done to many others), I'd say she deserves far worse.

Almost everyone wants freedom. But a noble warrior of the Alik'r would probably not sell out his former brethren over a weekend offense. Either the offense was more egregious (which would also point to him and them not actually being Alik'r, but mercs), or he is more unscrupulous than most sell-swords. Either way, it is unlikely they are Alik'r, or the reputation they have earned is highly unjustified.

If that city did not fall, then the Thalmor would have purchased an empty promise; seemingly more inclined to send out mercs with a contract than Hammerfell. If those are actually Alik'r,, then their rep is unjustified.

If she betrayed that city, I would tend to agree. But while I do not buy her story, I also do not buy theirs; either ignored or side with her. And I can not seem to find a RP reason to side with them either, but I have not played a mercenary hearted DB yet.

[Yrkoon]

LobselVith8 wrote...
It's impossible for a protagonist to know that modern day Hammerfell doesn't welcome the Thalmor? That's the crux of your argument?

Nope, it's not.   Simply knowing that Hammerfell hates the Thalmor will get you nowhere in this quest, since both sides  claim to be in opposition to the Thalmor.   The crux of my argument is that  a protagonist who escapes  Helgen, then goes to Riverwood, then heads up to Whiterun, will not know, at that point:  1) who the Alik'r are; and   2) what it meant to be a noble in Hammerfell when the  Aldmeri Dominion's influence there was  still spreading.  (because  Saadia claims that THIS is when she fled.)

 
This isn't CHIM we're talking about here; it's not unlikely or even difficult for a protagonist to know that Saadia's claims about having to flee Hammerfell because she opposed the Dominion are factually inaccurate.

Really?  Is it your contention, then,  that the Protagonist is given a specific timeline of events with which to judge Saadia's claim?    Because  no truly objective judge can   reasonably conclude that her claim is "factually inaccurate" unless he has this information.

LobselVith8 wrote...


My references addressed the simple fact that I don't see Whiterun as neutral, but frankly, I take issue with the simple fact that Saadia didn't hide in Stormcloak territory or a Hold that prohibits the presence of the Thalmor or their cronies.

Oh?   In that case,  since location is so paramount for you here, and since you  dodged the question the first two times I asked it, I'll ask it again.  If Saadia is a Thalmor ally, why  is she not working at the winking skeever in Solitude.... you know, the very  hold that houses both the Thalmor embassy and the seat of the empire's leadership  itself in Skyrim?  Doesn't your own logic dictate that  she would?

Modifié par Yrkoon, 24 décembre 2013 - 05:52 .

[Yrkoon]

  Wait...  just saw this and felt the need to address a  blatant double standard occurring here....

LobselVith8 wrote...


The two Alik'r agents interrogating a woman (who refers to foreigners as a nuisance, so she gains no sympathy from me) is bugged to reoccur continually,

Nah-ah.   No Sale.  You cannot    objectively defend an argument   by claiming it's due to a bug, unless you're willing to do it for ALL game bugs....Including this one.  From the Wiki:

Bugs

Saadia should go outside to listen to Heimskr's preaching from 3pm to 7pm, but her work package at the inn overrides it.

Now then,  since  you cited a game bug to  explain  away   widespread Alik'r harassment of innocent Redguard women all over Skyrim, I'm going to do the same to  defend Saadia:  She's supposed to go out and listen to Heimskr's anti-thalmor preaching 4 hours a day, every day.  That's  pretty odd behavior for an alleged Thalmor ally ,  wouldn't you say?

That is all.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 24 décembre 2013 - 05:36 .

[Ozzy]

Just to change track for a bit and address something that's been on my mind. Is Barbas just another aspect of Clavicus Vile? In Skyrim, Vile's power is reduced when Barbas is away from him and that makes it appear as if they're linked on a deeper.

We've already seen another aspect of Vile in Umbra so maybe splitting himself up is something he enjoys. Although, Umbra was due to him mostly being tricked. He might just enjoy horcruxes a bit. 

Modifié par AstusOz, 24 décembre 2013 - 05:44 .

[LobselVith8]

Yrkoon wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's impossible for a protagonist to know that modern day Hammerfell doesn't welcome the Thalmor? That's the crux of your argument?

Nope, it's not.   But  this is  a  feeble attempt at a straw man from you.  Knowing that Hammerfell hates the Thalmor will get you nowhere in this quest, since both sides  claim to be in opposition to the Thalmor.   The crux of my argument is that  a protagonist who escapes  Helgen, then goes to Riverwood, then heads up to Whiterun, will not know, at that point:  1) who the Alik'r are; and   2) what it meant to be a noble in Hammerfell when the  Aldmeri Dominion's influence there was  still spreading.  (because  Saadia claims that THIS is when she fled.) 

It's not a strawman for me to point out that you seem to think the protagonist would be ignorant about basic facts. Hammerfell being anti-Thalmor isn't a secret, so Saadia fleeing Hammerfell and staying away for decades makes little sense when the Redguards waged war against the Dominion for years to keep their sovereignty, and have been independent for even more years.

Yrkoon wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

My references addressed the simple fact that I don't see Whiterun as neutral, but frankly, I take issue with the simple fact that Saadia didn't hide in Stormcloak territory or a Hold that prohibits the presence of the Thalmor or their cronies.

Oh?   In that case,  since location is so paramount for you here, and since you  dodged the question the first two times I asked it, I'll ask it again.  If Saadia is a Thalmor ally, why  is she not working at the winking skeever in Solitude.... you know, the very  hold that houses both the Thalmor embassy and the seat of the empire's leadership  itself in Skyrim?  Doesn't your own logic dictate that  she would? 

Why would the Thalmor go out of their way for Saadia? Betraying Hammerfell to the Dominion doesn't mean the Thalmor would protect her, especially if she's no longer useful to them.

[LobselVith8]

Yrkoon wrote...

Wait...  just saw this and felt the need to address a  blatant double standard occurring here....

LobselVith8 wrote...

The two Alik'r agents interrogating a woman (who refers to foreigners as a nuisance, so she gains no sympathy from me) is bugged to reoccur continually,

Nah-ah.   No Sale.  You cannot    objectively defend an argument   by claiming it's due to a bug, unless you're willing to do it for ALL game bugs....Including this one.  From the Wiki:

Bugs 

Saadia should go outside to listen to Heimskr's preaching from 3pm to 7pm, but her work package at the inn overrides it.

I'm not seeing the double standard here. It's one random encounter that's being treated like the Alik'r are literally dominating Skyrim. And your example of her listening to Heimskr in a city full of people who still care about Talos still doesn't explain away that Saadia's claim makes absolutely no sense.

Yrkoon wrote...

Now then,  since  you cited a game bug to  explain  away   widespread Alik'r harassment of innocent Redguard women all over Skyrim, I'm going to do the same to  defend Saadia:  She's supposed to go out and listen to Heimskr's anti-thalmor preaching 4 hours a day, every day.  That's  pretty odd behavior for an alleged Thalmor ally ,  wouldn't you say?

That is all.

Betraying Hammerfell to the Dominion during the war =/= current Thalmor ally.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 24 décembre 2013 - 06:01 .

[Yrkoon]

LobselVith8 wrote...
It's not a strawman for me to point out that you seem to think the protagonist would be ignorant about basic facts. Hammerfell being anti-Thalmor isn't a secret, so Saadia fleeing Hammerfell and staying away for decades makes little sense when the Redguards waged war against the Dominion for years to keep their sovereignty, and have been independent for even more years.

It IS a straw man,  and now you've  added a grotesque exaggeration  on top of it.  LOL  Both will be addressed.

1) there's a huge difference between knowing that Hammerfell and the Thalmor are enemies, and Knowing   who the  Alik'r are, and  who the  Noble houses  are.  Anyone will know the former, but few will know the latter unless they're  Hammerfell-born Redguards themselves, or Scholars of history/politics.  The problem with All of your arguments here is that  you have no qualms  starting your characters from  the prologue  with all of this knowledge.  Like I said, that's  just bad Role-playing.

2)  What's this "decades" crap?  The Great War occurred  30 years ago, and Hammerfell  has only   enjoyed sovereignty for 25 years.  it is totally  believable  that  Saadia  could have fled  at that time or shortly before.  But since we're not told (by either side),  no one   can say, as fact, that Saadia's claim here is  inaccurate.

Why would the Thalmor go out of their way for Saadia? Betraying Hammerfell to the Dominion doesn't mean the Thalmor would protect her, especially if she's no longer useful to them.

Therefore,  her choice of location is irrelevant.  So why keep bringing it up  as if it matters?

Modifié par Yrkoon, 24 décembre 2013 - 06:52 .

[Master Warder Z_]

Yrkoon wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...


For the same reason Benedict Arnold, Vidkun Quisling, Judas Iscariot, Mir Jafar and La Malniche are seen as traitors.

...And  Ulfric Stormcloak.  He's seen as  a traitor too.  To an entire empire in fact.  But a huge portion of his countrymen love him for it.

Just like a great deal of Norway saw Quisling as a Hero for standing up to a King who at the first sign of trouble fled to england.

Honestly this world just like virtual reality is filled with "Victors History" 

That said Jarl Ulfric has the right of it in my eye.

[Yrkoon]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm not seeing the double standard here. It's one random encounter that's being treated like the Alik'r are literally dominating Skyrim.

  Another Straw man.  No one has claimed any such thing.  Instead, we have only ever said that it is widespread  (which it is.   I've seen it like 4  times in my last playthrough)  and that it demonstrates  2 things.

a)  That the Alik'r are ruthless, and  reckless in their pursuit
  They actually don't know who they're looking for.  (which, in and of itself is telling.   If her crime is so egregious  shouldn't they know precisely who their target is?  I mean, wouldn't she be completely INFAMOUS? )  I mean, how the hell did they ever defeat the Thalmor with such sh**ty intelligence gathering skills?

And your example of her listening to Heimskr in a city full of people who still care about Talos still doesn't explain away that Saadia's claim makes absolutely no sense.

Oh no mon ami.   It   casts tons of doubt on the Alik'r claim.     Not to mention your claim that she chose whiterun due to its pro-thalmor nature.

Betraying Hammerfell to the Dominion during the war =/= current Thalmor ally.

 Can you show me evidence  (besides the testimony of a  law-breaking jailed criminal and a Bandit-allied leader) that Saadia, in fact, betrayed Hammerfelll to the Dominion during the war?

Oh wait, no you can't.   LOL

But the fact that she's  not currently a thalmor ally  (are you now admitting this?) is going to be enough for any Skyrim Native to conclude that there's nothing wrong with her keeping her job at the Bannered Mare.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 24 décembre 2013 - 07:37 .

[Elhanan]

Yrkoon wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
It's not a strawman for me to point out that you seem to think the protagonist would be ignorant about basic facts. Hammerfell being anti-Thalmor isn't a secret, so Saadia fleeing Hammerfell and staying away for decades makes little sense when the Redguards waged war against the Dominion for years to keep their sovereignty, and have been independent for even more years.

It IS a straw man,  and now you've  added a grotesque exaggeration  on top of it.  LOL  Both will be addressed.

1) there's a huge difference between knowing that Hammerfell and the Thalmor are enemies, and Knowing   who the  Alik'r are, and  who the  Noble houses  are.  Anyone will know the former, but few will know the latter unless they're  Hammerfell-born Redguards themselves, or Scholars of history/politics.  The problem with All of your arguments here is that  you have no qualms  starting your characters from  the prologue  with all of this knowledge.  Like I said, that's  just bad Role-playing.

2)  What's this "decades" crap?  The Great War occurred  30 years ago, and Hammerfell  has only   enjoyed sovereignty for 25 years.  it is totally  believable  that  Saadia  could have fled  at that time or shortly before.  But since we're not told (by either side),  no one   can say, as fact, that Saadia's claim here is  inaccurate.

Why would the Thalmor go out of their way for Saadia? Betraying Hammerfell to the Dominion doesn't mean the Thalmor would protect her, especially if she's no longer useful to them.

Therefore,  her choice of location is irrelevant.  So why keep bringing it up  as if it matters?

One point that Gopher made in his recent presentation was that Saadia would have had to have been quite young at this time, considering her youthful image currently. This may not be proof of her innocence, but it is circumstantial evidence.

BTW - Gopher handed her over, too. I simply disagree with it.

[Joy Divison]

Yrkoon wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm not seeing the double standard here. It's one random encounter that's being treated like the Alik'r are literally dominating Skyrim.

  Another Straw man.  No one has claimed any such thing.  Instead, we have only ever said that it is widespread  (which it is.   I've seen it like 4  times in my last playthrough)  and that it demonstrates  2 things.

a)  That the Alik'r are ruthless, and  reckless in their pursuit
  They actually don't know who they're looking for.  (which, in and of itself is telling.   If her crime is so egregious  shouldn't they know precisely who their target is?  I mean, wouldn't she be completely INFAMOUS? )  I mean, how the hell did they ever defeat the Thalmor with such sh**ty intelligence gathering skills?

And your example of her listening to Heimskr in a city full of people who still care about Talos still doesn't explain away that Saadia's claim makes absolutely no sense.

Oh no mon ami.   It   casts tons of doubt on the Alik'r claim.     Not to mention your claim that she chose whiterun due to its pro-thalmor nature.

Betraying Hammerfell to the Dominion during the war =/= current Thalmor ally.

 Can you show me evidence  (besides the testimony of a  law-breaking jailed criminal and a Bandit-allied leader) that Saadia, in fact, betrayed Hammerfelll to the Dominion during the war?

Oh wait, no you can't.   LOL

But the fact that she's  not currently a thalmor ally  (are you now admitting this?) is going to be enough for any Skyrim Native to conclude that there's nothing wrong with her keeping her job at the Bannered Mare.

You keep saying the Alikir are ruthless and reckless in their pursuit as if acting that way somehow invalidates their claim.  Can you explain why?  Or did you have a bad experience with your local law enforcement establishment that makes you highly sensitive to proper procedures in this respect?  I do not see the connection between Alikir are mean and Saadia is innocent.

They DO know who they are looking for.  "Brother (because mercs commonly address themselves this way, right Elhanan?), I think she's telling the truth ... she doesn't have the scar."

Can you show me evidence (besides the testimony of a women on the run which contradicts lore numerous time) that substantiates her story?

That she is suppose to listen to Heimskr speak does not cast tons of doubt on the Alikir claim.  Maybe she found religion after realizing the deeds of her crime?  Maybe its just a ruse to sucker poeple into believer her claim that she spoke out against the Aldmeri Dominion.  Maybe she has the hots for Heimskr?  Maybe she just likes the shade of the dead Gildergreen?  Maybe she is watching Heimskr for her Thalmor buddies and preparing a report of Heimskr's daily routines and who in Whiterun is attending his services?

Your contention that she's not currently a [useful] Thalmor ally is going to be enough for any Skyrim citizen is a broad claim that you can't substantiate.  ANY Skyrim citizen?  First off, that's wrong because my anti-Thalmor Skyrim citizens (which describes most citizens in Skyrim and and even that milk-drinking Tulius) view her with disgust, suspicion, and a fugitive who deserves to answer for her previous association with the Thalmor.  This isn't some random breton who got mixed up in High Rock political intrigue that Nords would have no understading of, but someone who willingly consorted with their number one enemy.  The difference is signficant and that you are not recognizing it is disingenuous.

In fact, the game does give evidence that Saadia is still considered an asset by the Thalmor - if you aid Kematu, a group of Thalmor Justiciars come after you and carry a Justiciar Execution Order with your race and name.

Now there is one theme to your argument I will agree with: it does take a certain knowledge of Lore to fully appreciate the dubiousness of Saadia's story.  If the DB does not investigate the revelant lore by reading books or does not have the relevant background information (as my Desdenova did), then it is difficult to know who is telling the truth.  That being said, i think if you do go to Swindler's Den and meet Kematu, the circumstantial evidence begins to weigh in their favor: they do not act like mercs (nor does the man in jail for that matter ... he does not suspect the DB to survive and, if anything, Kematu capturing the DB will help the Alikir cause), Saadia is hesitant to fully explain the situation, while Kematu elaborates on it fully, he wants to capture Saadia - if he was an assassin in it for the money as she claims, the more prudent and cost-effective means would be to simply cut of her head.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 24 décembre 2013 - 10:04 .

[mybudgee]

People please! Be civil!! It's Christmas for God's sake!!

[Abraham_uk]

Speaking of Christmas...

What are your favorite Christmas themed mods in Skyrim?

[Elhanan]

Joy Divison wrote...

You keep saying the Alikir are ruthless and reckless in their pursuit as if acting that way somehow invalidates their claim.  Can you explain why?  Or did you have a bad experience with your local law enforcement establishment that makes you highly sensitive to proper procedures in this respect?  I do not see the connection between Alikir are mean and Saadia is innocent.

They DO know who they are looking for.  "Brother (because mercs commonly address themselves this way, right Elhanan?), I think she's telling the truth ... she doesn't have the scar."

Can you show me evidence (besides the testimony of a women on the run which contradicts lore numerous time) that substantiates her story?

That she is suppose to listen to Heimskr speak does not cast tons of doubt on the Alikir claim.  Maybe she found religion after realizing the deeds of her crime?  Maybe its just a ruse to sucker poeple into believer her claim that she spoke out against the Aldmeri Dominion.  Maybe she has the hots for Heimskr?  Maybe she just likes the shade of the dead Gildergreen?  Maybe she is watching Heimskr for her Thalmor buddies and preparing a report of Heimskr's daily routines and who in Whiterun is attending his services?

Your contention that she's not currently a [useful] Thalmor ally is going to be enough for any Skyrim citizen is a broad claim that you can't substantiate.  ANY Skyrim citizen?  First off, that's wrong because my anti-Thalmor Skyrim citizens (which describes most citizens in Skyrim and and even that milk-drinking Tulius) view her with disgust, suspicion, and a fugitive who deserves to answer for her previous association with the Thalmor.  This isn't some random breton who got mixed up in High Rock political intrigue that Nords would have no understading of, but someone who willingly consorted with their number one enemy.  The difference is signficant and that you are not recognizing it is disingenuous.

In fact, the game does give evidence that Saadia is still considered an asset by the Thalmor - if you aid Kematu, a group of Thalmor Justiciars come after you and carry a Justiciar Execution Order with your race and name.

Now there is one theme to your argument I will agree with: it does take a certain knowledge of Lore to fully appreciate the dubiousness of Saadia's story.  If the DB does not investigate the revelant lore by reading books or does not have the relevant background information (as my Desdenova did), then it is difficult to know who is telling the truth.  That being said, i think if you do go to Swindler's Den and meet Kematu, the circumstantial evidence begins to weigh in their favor: they do not act like mercs (nor does the man in jail for that matter ... he does not suspect the DB to survive and, if anything, Kematu capturing the DB will help the Alikir cause), Saadia is hesitant to fully explain the situation, while Kematu elaborates on it fully, he wants to capture Saadia - if he was an assassin in it for the money as she claims, the more prudent and cost-effective means would be to simply cut of her head.

Men at arms can and do call themselves brothers, especially when banded together (hint). The Stormcloaks also seem rather bonded in their cause, which I also oppose in game.

And the encounter at Swindler's Den is the final straw against them for me; another attempt at a bribe to deceive her. I do not care who has the better lie, but I choose to oppose the many against the few, and leaving her serving at The Bannered Mare.

[Elhanan]

Abraham_uk wrote...

Speaking of Christmas...

What are your favorite Christmas themed mods in Skyrim?

No specific mods, but I now have a few wonderfully Winter themed wallpapers thanks to some better textures and meshes. My fave is from the Skaal village on Solstheim.

[RobRam10]

A Skyrim Christmas to you!

[Joy Divison]

mybudgee wrote...

People please! Be civil!! It's Christmas for God's sake!!

We are.  I get the impression that one of Yrkoon's passions is arguing

The regulars in this thread can debate and disagree while be civil ... if we can't then the trolls who pop in and say we are Bethesda fanatics and can't critique are right.

And, yes, Merry X-Mas!

Modifié par Joy Divison, 25 décembre 2013 - 12:03 .

[Yrkoon]

Joy Divison wrote...
You keep saying the Alikir are ruthless and reckless in their pursuit as if acting that way somehow invalidates their claim. 

It  kinda does, yes.  (And I thought I   addressed this notion before but whatever, I'll do it again.) Despite what the "lore experts" believe is a simple matter of one side absolutely telling the truth and the other side putting up a ridiculously demonstrative lie, we have no such thing going on here, and this is by developer design.  (most quests in Skyrim are grey-flavored, and so is the lore.  Imagine that!)    This quest IS  a He-said She-said.   Due to the fact that neither side  will tell us  *when* the alleged treasonous act/flight took place.  That is a key piece of the puzzle that we are not given, and it's sorely missed.  Why?  Because if Saadia left Hammerfell  during the Great war, then her story is likely the truth.  But if  she just recently fled, then she's likely lying out of her ass.

But since Bethesda has deliberately omitted this  piece of the timeline,  an intelligent player  will  have to make due with judging the two sides' credibility.  And that means observing their actions.  Now, I have some time tonight so I'll do a "+" and "-"  Checklist with an honest attempt to be as objective as possible.

Positives for the Alik'r:
1) Noble warriors...  +1
2) They don't seem to have any blood lust...  +1
3)  History....  +1

Negatives against the Alik'r
1) They consort with bandits... -1
2) One in their number did something to get himself jailed... -1
3) They're apparently easy to bribe for information...  -1
4) They harass innocents... -1
5) Their leader   is a coward, hiding in swindler's den instead of joining his "brothers" in  Rorikstead or patrolling the road....-1

That's a credibility total of ...-2.  Not great.


Positives for Saadia:
1) She's chosen Whiterun, instead of absolute imperial strongholds, like Markarth or Solitude  +1
2) She  shows  absolutely zero  mannerisms associated with nobility  +1
3) She's chosen the most non-political, non-threatening job to have:  Tavern Wench...+1

Negatives against Saadia:
1) She threatens you at knifepoint.... -2

That's a credibility total of....+1

Saadia comes out on top here.  +1 vs.  -2

They DO know who they are looking for.  "Brother (because mercs commonly address themselves this way, right Elhanan?), I think she's telling the truth ... she doesn't have the scar."

Really?  You call  " Find the Redguard woman with Scar" an adequate intel-gathering profile of   a target we're told committed such a horrible crime, that an entire regiment of Hammerfell's best warriors have been dispatched to another country to retrieve her?

I say nay, and I call shenanigans  (more on that below)

Can you show me evidence (besides the testimony of a women on the run which contradicts lore numerous time) that substantiates her story?

There is none.  Just as there is none to   support the Alik'r story.  But then again, I'm not  the one here claiming that this is  a "no-brainer", or that either  side is "uttering bullsh**".

But  for what it's worth,  her story does  not contradict lore  (as if such a thing were even  possible in a game world where lore is meted out via multiple perspectives that often contradict  on purpose).  But regardless,  the  lore-friendliness of her  story completely depends on when she fled Hammerfell.... which we're not told.

That she is suppose to listen to Heimskr speak does not cast tons of doubt on the Alikir claim.  Maybe she found religion after realizing the deeds of her crime?  Maybe its just a ruse to sucker poeple into believer her claim that she spoke out against the Aldmeri Dominion.  Maybe she has the hots for Heimskr?  Maybe she just likes the shade of the dead Gildergreen?  Maybe she is watching Heimskr for her Thalmor buddies and preparing a report of Heimskr's daily routines and who in Whiterun is attending his services?

Ooh,   Wildly throwing   strands of  spaghetti at the wall to see if any  stick!   Can I play?

Ok.  Lets see.  Lets discuss the so-call "given" that we're even dealing with  authentic Alik'r warriors to begin with..  How do we know?  Is it  because of  the way they dress?  Nope.  You can   find   Alik'r  hoods  in different places in Skyrim, such as the clothing shop in Thalmor-infested Solitude, or off the body of Kresh, the Peryite Worshipper.  Hell,  if you're the Thane of Imperial-run Falkreath, your housecarl wears one.  And Scimitars?  Ha!  There's a ship of  blood-thirsty pirates  near Solitude who  all use scimitars.

But I digress. 

These Alik'r warriors are noble  when they call Bandits   allies,  sell their own leaders out for bail money, and  comb the countryside  for  Redguard women to harass.

So we should believe  them when they  speak. Even though the very same "code" that makes them noble, forces them to snap shut  when anyone questions them.... And even though  they claim that Saadia  betrayed  them to  the Dominion.... an entity  the  lore tells us t no longer exists in Hammerfell, because these noble warriors drove them out years ago.  Uh-huh.  yeah.

Your contention that she's not currently a [useful] Thalmor ally is going to be enough for any Skyrim citizen is a broad claim that you can't substantiate.  ANY Skyrim citizen?  First off, that's wrong because my anti-Thalmor Skyrim citizens (which describes most citizens in Skyrim and and even that milk-drinking Tulius) view her with disgust, suspicion, and a fugitive who deserves to answer for her previous association with the Thalmor.  This isn't some random breton who got mixed up in High Rock political intrigue that Nords would have no understading of, but someone who willingly consorted with their number one enemy.  The difference is signficant and that you are not recognizing it is disingenuous.

Ok, my wording was incorrect.   Mea Culpa.  Perhaps I should say, any  non-hopelessly gullible Skyrim citizen.

In fact, the game does give evidence that Saadia is still considered an asset by the Thalmor - if you aid Kematu, a group of Thalmor Justiciars come after you and carry a Justiciar Execution Order with your race and name.

BS.  The Thalmor assassins   encounter(s)  occur without any prerequisites.  (link)

Now there is one theme to your argument I will agree with: it does take a certain knowledge of Lore to fully appreciate the dubiousness of Saadia's story.  If the DB does not investigate the revelant lore by reading books or does not have the relevant background information (as my Desdenova did), then it is difficult to know who is telling the truth.  That being said, i think if you do go to Swindler's Den and meet Kematu, the circumstantial evidence begins to weigh in their favor: they do not act like mercs (nor does the man in jail for that matter ... he does not suspect the DB to survive and, if anything, Kematu capturing the DB will help the Alikir cause), Saadia is hesitant to fully explain the situation, while Kematu elaborates on it fully, he wants to capture Saadia - if he was an assassin in it for the money as she claims, the more prudent and cost-effective means would be to simply cut of her head.

This is nonsense.    First You have no idea when she fled, and if it was during the Great war then there's nothing dubious at all about her claim, as back then, speaking out against the Thalmor WOULD land you in deep trouble in Hammerfell.  Second, you don't get jack in the way of an explanation when you push the Alik'r for more information.  In fact, they flat out tell you that if you're not happy with the hopelessly vague  info they've given you, you can  take a hike.

Lastly, I don't see how "being polite"   on occasion automatically eliminates one from being an assassin or a bounty hunter anyway.  Did I miss that  chapter of the  code of conduct  book?  They're in a foreign land and they're failing their mission spectacularly.  How do you expect  them to act towards  the one person in the entire world who's expressing an interest in helping them  find their target?

Modifié par Yrkoon, 25 décembre 2013 - 02:45 .