37007 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Are we still discussing this? There is no ambiguity. There simply isn't. It doesn't make any difference when Saadia fled Hammerfell- she's lying. Doesn't mean you can't decide to help her anyway, or not to get involved at all, maybe you can find some reason why she'd tell such a bald-faced and stupid lie- but there's no way her BS story could be true.

[Elhanan]

Addai67 wrote...

Are we still discussing this? There is no ambiguity. There simply isn't. It doesn't make any difference when Saadia fled Hammerfell- she's lying. Doesn't mean you can't decide to help her anyway, or not to get involved at all, maybe you can find some reason why she'd tell such a bald-faced and stupid lie- but there's no way her BS story could be true.

Tend to agree, but neither are the men claiming to be Alik'r. So I choose to help the one against the many.

[Yrkoon]

Is there a Thalmor presence in Hammerfell?

[Addai]

Elhanan wrote...
So this Alik'ir warrior that is arrested for no big deal sells out info for early release? To me, it reinforces that these men are simply mercs. Same with the hiring of bandits cause only gold matters.

Mercs kick someone out of the club because he got caught by the law.... riiiight.

And if Saddia betrayed this city to the Thalmor, that seems to have failed as it is still under the reign of Hammerfell. In such a case, it would seem more logical for the Thalmor to be in pursuit.

And if one aids her, she continues her job serving drinks, cooking, mopping floors, etc; not exactly the easy life.

The redguard fought for five years to liberate their country.

You guys are offering really weak arguments for why you should let a Thalmor spy escape justice. Your character can justify it however you see fit, but this all is real weaksauce.

[Addai]

Yrkoon wrote...

Is there a Thalmor presence in Hammerfell?

"Epilogue: Hammerfell Fights On Alone
Hammerfell, however, refused to accept the White-Gold Concordat, being unwilling to concede defeat and the loss of so much of their territory. Titus II was forced to officially renounce Hammerfell as an Imperial province in order to preserve the hard-won peace treaty. The Redguards, understandably, looked on this as a betrayal.

In this, the Thalmor certainly achieved one of their long-term goals by sowing lasting bitterness between Hammerfell and the Empire.  In the end, the heroic Redguards fought the Aldmeri Dominion to a standstill, although the war lasted for five more years and left southern Hammerfell devastated. The Redguards say that this proves that the White-Gold Concordat was unnecessary, and that if Titus II had kept his nerve, the Aldmeri could have been truly defeated by the combined forces of Hammerfell and the rest of the Empire. The truth of that assertion can, of course, never be known. But the Redguards should not forget the great sacrifice of Imperial blood - Breton, Nord, and Cyrodilic - at the Battle of the Red Ring that weakened the Dominion enough to allow the eventual Second Treaty of Stros M'kai in 4E 180 and the withdrawal of Aldmeri forces from Hammerfell."
The Great War

Modifié par Addai67, 25 décembre 2013 - 02:57 .

[Yrkoon]

The withdraw of the Dominion from Hammerfell, eh?

Then the Alik'r are lying.  

  Unless of course you've got a theory as to how, exactly  Saadia can betray Hammerfell..... to an entity that does not have a presense in Hammerfell..

Modifié par Yrkoon, 25 décembre 2013 - 03:05 .

[Elhanan]

Addai67 wrote...

Mercs kick someone out of the club because he got caught by the law.... riiiight.

The redguard fought for five years to liberate their country.

You guys are offering really weak arguments for why you should let a Thalmor spy escape justice. Your character can justify it however you see fit, but this all is real weaksauce.

You seem to assume the prisoner is telling the truth. And if he is, his banishment is justified. But they aren't Alik'r; just mercs that might want a bigger share.

Personally, I believe we're doing a much better job than the persecution/ prosecution of the Tavern lass.

[Addai]

Yrkoon wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
  The redguard fought for five years to liberate their country.

Then they must have failed.

It's either that or the Alik'r are lying.    Unless of course you've got a theory as to how, exactly  Saadia can betray Hammerfell, to an entity that does not have a presense in Hammerfell..

This was during the war, how is that difficult?

[Yrkoon]

Addai67 wrote...
This was during the war, how is that difficult?

Addai67 wrote...It doesn't make any difference when Saadia fled Hammerfell- she's lying.

Ahem....

you done Zig-Zagging? 

Modifié par Yrkoon, 25 décembre 2013 - 03:12 .

[Addai]

Yrkoon wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
This was during the war, how is that difficult?

Addai67 wrote...It doesn't make any difference when Saadia fled Hammerfell- she's lying.

Ahem....

you done Zig-Zagging? 

Her involvement could have been discovered at any time after the war. But I don't see your point here.

edit- And I'll ask you- how does it even begin to make sense that she was forced out of Hammerfell for speaking out against the Thalmor, especially after the war?  Remember, that is Saadia's story that she volunteers to you.  It doesn't make any sense before then, either, but even less so afterward. I'm just not seeing your big gotcha here.

Modifié par Addai67, 25 décembre 2013 - 03:11 .

[Yrkoon]

if Saadia fled during the war, then it's quite plausible that she was fleeing the Dominion, like she says.

[Addai]

Yrkoon wrote...

if Saadia fled during the war, then it's quite plausible that she was fleeing the Dominion, like she says.

Sooo... she can't go back to Hammerfell now, why exactly?

[Yrkoon]

Addai67 wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
This was during the war, how is that difficult?

Addai67 wrote...It doesn't make any difference when Saadia fled Hammerfell- she's lying.

Ahem....

you done Zig-Zagging? 

Her involvement could have been discovered at any time after the war. But I don't see your point here.

edit- And I'll ask you- how does it even begin to make sense that she was forced out of Hammerfell for speaking out against the Thalmor, especially after the war? 

Saadia   claims  that when the dominion spread in Hammerfell,  she spoke out against them and was forced to leave.  That is her claim.      There is NO evidence to suggest she was discovered anytime after the war and even the Alik'r do not claim such a thing.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 25 décembre 2013 - 03:19 .

[Addai]

Yrkoon wrote...
Saadia   claims  that when the dominion spread in Hammerfell,  she spoke out against them and was forced to leave.  That is her claim.      There is NO evidence to suggest she was discovered anytime after the war and even the Alik'r do not claim such a thing.

No, she says this exactly:

"I spoke out against the Aldmeri Dominion publicly; I suspect that's why these men were hired to hunt me down."

Why are the Thalmor hiring Alik'r warriors (who hate Thalmor enough that they stopped their own civil feuding to help kick the Dominion out of their country) to hunt down someone who merely spoke out against the Dominion in public... when THE WHOLE BLEEDING COUNTRY did the same thing?

And why, if that's the case, is she in Skyrim where the Thalmor are allowed almost free reign, and is desperately trying not to be sent back to Hammerfell?

Ok, you explain that.

[Yrkoon]

Addai67 wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

if Saadia fled during the war, then it's quite plausible that she was fleeing the Dominion, like she says.

Sooo... she can't go back to Hammerfell now, why exactly?

Oh I'm sure she could, but then that would bring us back to the initial impossibility:  betraying Hammerfell to the Aldmeri Dominion.... even though there's no Aldmeri Dominion in Hammerfell. 

[Yrkoon]

Addai67 wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...
Saadia   claims  that when the dominion spread in Hammerfell,  she spoke out against them and was forced to leave.  That is her claim.      There is NO evidence to suggest she was discovered anytime after the war and even the Alik'r do not claim such a thing.

No, she says this exactly:

"I spoke out against the Aldmeri Dominion publicly; I suspect that's why these men were hired to hunt me down."

Why are the Thalmor hiring Alik'r warriors

Ok, you explain that.

I don't need to.  The Alik'r are not on trial here.  The issue is Saadia's alleged crimes.    But that said, I saw nothing in  "these men's" actions  that would lead me to believe that they're actually Alik'r warriors. 

Would you like me to post the long list of very  Ignoble things these supposed noble warriors have  committed before  the Dragonborn's very eyes, again, so  that you can just brush  them aside as "no big deal", and ten we can start the circular debate all  over again with this so-called  "unambiguous quest"?

Modifié par Yrkoon, 25 décembre 2013 - 03:31 .

[Addai]

Yrkoon wrote...
Oh I'm sure she could, but then that would bring us back to the initial impossibility:  betraying Hammerfell to the Aldmeri Dominion.... even though there's no Aldmeri Dominion in Hammerfell. 

How is that impossible?

Timeline goes thus:

- The Dominion invades Hammerfell
- Saadia betrays Taneth to them
- Dominion is kicked out of Hammerfell after over 5 years of fighting
- Saadia flees when her involvement in betraying Taneth is discovered

She obviously was counting on the Dominion winning. Maybe she hoped that would put her in line for some kickbacks, or maybe the Thalmor had something on her that forced her hand- whatever. But there is no timeline discrepancy to the Alik'r's story.

She says "do I have to pick up and leave again?", implying that she's been on the run for quite a while. Which fits the scenario that her betrayal was during the war.

What doesn't fit is why she would want to stay in Skyrim if she's a known enemy of the Thalmor, when she could go home to Hammerfell where there's no open Thalmor presence at all. What also doesn't fit is how merely speaking out against the Dominion gets her on the most wanted list, when all of Hammerfell did the same thing.

I don't need to.  The Alik'r are not on trial here.  The issue is Saadia's alleged crimes.    But that said, I saw nothing in  "these men's" actions  that would lead me to believe that they're actually Alik'r warriors. 

Nice brush-off. The point is that Saadia is clearly telling a whopper of a lie. Like I said, that doesn't mean you need to believe Kematu or help him, but there's nothing about the Alik'r's story that is as blatantly deceptive as the story Saadia offers.

Bottom line: Saadia, clearly lying
Kematu: Doesn't tell an obvious lie, isn't especially friendly

That's the situation. What you do with it is obviously up to the individual dragonborn. I'm almost always going to turn in the Thalmor lackey who apparently thinks the LDB just fell off the turnip cart.

Modifié par Addai67, 25 décembre 2013 - 03:38 .

[Yrkoon]

That's a nice theory, but you lost me at "Saadia betrays Taneth to them". Where do you come up with this stuff?

Edit: nevermind.  Kematu claims this.  of course, this means that he was  hired out by a Noble House to hunt down Saadia, which means he's a friggin mercenary.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 25 décembre 2013 - 03:38 .

[Addai]

Yrkoon wrote...

That's a nice theory, but you lost me at "Saadia betrays Taneth to them". Where do you come up with this stuff?

"She sold the city out to the Aldmeri Dominion. Were it not for her betrayal, Taneth could have held its ground in the war." -Kematu

[Yrkoon]

Yeah. Got. responded.

[LobselVith8]

Yrkoon wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's not a strawman for me to point out that you seem to think the protagonist would be ignorant about basic facts. Hammerfell being anti-Thalmor isn't a secret, so Saadia fleeing Hammerfell and staying away for decades makes little sense when the Redguards waged war against the Dominion for years to keep their sovereignty, and have been independent for even more years.

It IS a straw man,  and now you've  added a grotesque exaggeration  on top of it.  LOL  Both will be addressed. 

It isn't a strawman; it's the basic fact that Hammerfell maintaining their autonomy isn't some clandestine outcome known only to a few. It's sufficient enough for anyone to find Saadia's story highly suspect.

Yrkoon wrote...

1) there's a huge difference between knowing that Hammerfell and the Thalmor are enemies, and Knowing   who the  Alik'r are, and  who the  Noble houses  are.  Anyone will know the former, but few will know the latter unless they're  Hammerfell-born Redguards themselves, or Scholars of history/politics.  The problem with All of your arguments here is that  you have no qualms  starting your characters from  the prologue  with all of this knowledge.  Like I said, that's  just bad Role-playing.

I roleplay as a character who has actually lived on Nirn, and therefore isn't completely ignorant about what's taken place in the last couple of years. The primary fact that a protagonist could know is that Hammerfell repelled the Dominion when they refused to abide by the WGC, and that the former province has been free while the Empire capitulated to the Dominion.

Yrkoon wrote...

2)  What's this "decades" crap?  The Great War occurred  30 years ago, and Hammerfell  has only   enjoyed sovereignty for 25 years.  it is totally  believable  that  Saadia  could have fled  at that time or shortly before.  But since we're not told (by either side),  no one   can say, as fact, that Saadia's claim here is  inaccurate.

The Great War transpired decades ago; the Redguards were fighting the Dominion before and after the WGC was signed. Also, Saadia staying in hiding while Hammerfell has been free of the Thalmor for years is enough for us to call out how her story makes no sense.

Yrkoon wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Why would the Thalmor go out of their way for Saadia? Betraying Hammerfell to the Dominion doesn't mean the Thalmor would protect her, especially if she's no longer useful to them.

Therefore,  her choice of location is irrelevant.  So why keep bringing it up  as if it matters? 

Are you being so incredibly disingenuous as to compare the Thalmor hunting Saadia down with protecting her from reprisal?

[Addai]

Yrkoon wrote...

That's a nice theory, but you lost me at "Saadia betrays Taneth to them". Where do you come up with this stuff?

Edit: nevermind.  Kematu claims this.  of course, this means that he was  hired out by a Noble House to hunt down Saadia, which means he's a friggin mercenary.

Yes, but the Alik'r aren't your average lowlife mercs. Read this, from the game Daggerfall.  I'm assuming they were hired- despite their unsuitability for work in a foreign country- because they can't be bought off.

On a side note, Saadia makes the same point when she says she can't trust the guard because they can be bought. There's never an option to buy Kematu out. Not proof of anything, but it's further demonstration that they aren't just out for gold like she claims.

[Yrkoon]

Addai67 wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

That's a nice theory, but you lost me at "Saadia betrays Taneth to them". Where do you come up with this stuff?

Edit: nevermind.  Kematu claims this.  of course, this means that he was  hired out by a Noble House to hunt down Saadia, which means he's a friggin mercenary.

Yes, but the Alik'r aren't your average lowlife mercs. Read this, from the game Daggerfall. 

Right.  All that link confirms is that The Alik'r are indeed your average lowlife mercs, but they have a drooling fan.

We'll get back to saadia in a moment but first, lets explore further the lowlife merc, thing.  When you sneak into swindler's den and listen to the Bandits that the Alik'r have befriended.  What do they say?

Yes, they say that they're being paid.  But they also express fear.  One of the bandits says  something to the effect of:  "better not  let them hear you say that, unless you want a dagger in your back.       Now.... Why would  these people fear a dagger in their back from noble warriors?    And why are they not welcome in Whiterun?  Why does a whiterun guard say:  "you're lucky I don't toss you in prison or what you've done"?

Also, I got a chuckle out of this snippet.  from the  Daggerfall piece
:

They are warriors by nature. As a group, there are none better. Nothing for them has worth unless they have struggled for it

Yet,   in Skyrim one of their leaders  holes himself up  in the bowels of a bandit den.  4 more of his men  sit in a village tavern, two  others  try to pass their mission off to the Dragonborn, and one gives up the struggle after only a couple of days in jail.   

Saadia must have  committed a Horrendous crime LOL.  One LITERALLY not worth  struggling  for
.
This article Portrays the Alik'r.  But I have no idea  who those  Redguard pretenders we meet in Skyrim are.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 25 décembre 2013 - 04:15 .

[Addai]

Yeah, why would a band of less than twenty men need hired muscle in a country that's openly cooperating with the Thalmor and in the middle of a civil war. It's a total mystery.

Lol, do whatever you want in your own game.

[Leo]

Yrkoon wrote...

Yes, they say that they're being paid.  But they also express fear.  One of the bandits says  something to the effect of:  "better not  let them hear you say that, unless you want a dagger in your back.       Now.... Why would  these people fear a dagger in their back from noble warriors?    And why are they not welcome in Whiterun?  Why does a whiterun guard say:  "you're lucky I don't toss you in prison or what you've done"?

One bandit is afraid because he thinks that bad talking a wariorr is liable to get his comrade killed. The Alik'r aren't welcome in Whiterun because they've been harrassing redguard women, and probably other citizens trying to find Saadia.