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[Endurium]

If using a script-blocking plugin, make sure it's allowing the new bioware forums to work, or your functionality will be severely reduced.

 

Regarding gear, my dragonborn is mostly staying with Nightingale gear and a hi-res texture mod for said gear. No face, dark like her custom bow with ebony appearance, etc. Blends into darkness well. It's amusing how townsfolk and guards don't mind her appearance.

 

Also I'm still using ihud with Skyui; good combo and I can quickly press X to disable hud for screenshots. handy.

[Derpy]

That guy I showed a picture of is basically a god more or less. I have taken down legendary dragons without getting a scratch with just my sword. If I use magic, I can take one out while he sits on his word wall.

[Yrkoon]

A long time ago on this very thread, I joined a discussion about the Forsworn.
I defended the Forsworn and, well I was the only one saying that the Forsworn were neither good nor evil.

Is anything Truly good or evil in this game?

Bethesda are really good at writing in Grey. And their narratives almost always make it a point to present both sides of a story. The result is that even things like the Dark Brotherhood, the Thalmor, the Falmer, The Draugr, the Daedra and other "evil" things really aren't. They're just trying to solve their own little "personal" conflicts, and the rest of us either end up getting in their way, thus earning their wrath, or else we simply don't understand their motivations.

Take the Dark Brotherhood for example. they're assassins that will kill anyone if you pay them and do their ritual. By strict conventional morality definitions, this is plain evil. But in Skyrim, what do they really Do? Well, they Kill idiots. Like the "worst bard in the world", and the Current Emperor, who's death, as any true Nord will tell you, is completely justified.

[Master Warder Z_]

Well That's the thing about the Brotherhood they sell their sacred art for coin.

 

They are Mercenaries who's patron is the god of the void.

 

Sithis wants souls, and the Brotherhood gains coin, its a perfect arrangement for them.

[Cyonan]

Is anything Truly good or evil in this game?

Bethesda are really good at writing in Grey. And their narratives almost always make it a point to present both sides of a story. The result is that even things like the Dark Brotherhood, the Thalmor, the Falmer, The Draugr, the Daedra and other "evil" things really aren't. They're just trying to solve their own little "personal" conflicts, and the rest of us either end up getting in their way, thus earning their wrath, or else we simply don't understand their motivations.

Take the Dark Brotherhood for example. they're assassins that will kill anyone if you pay them and do their ritual. By strict conventional morality definitions, this is plain evil. But in Skyrim, what do they really Do? Well, they Kill idiots. Like the "worst bard in the world", and the Current Emperor, who's death, as any true Nord will tell you, is completely justified.

 

They're good at giving groups their own motivations for doing things, but the way in which they're going about it I would argue are still evil for the Forsworn or Dark Brotherhood.

 

The Forsworn basically just attack everybody on sight regardless of who they are, and given that it's not an instinct like an animal I would say it's an evil act rather than a neutral one.

 

As for the brotherhood, they do kill anybody as long as you pay them to do so which is evil as you noted. Just because they killed a couple of people that the native people of the land are at war with doesn't suddenly make it a neutral act.

 

Something like the Daedra would have to depend on which prince it's tied to. Sheogorath is more chaotic than he is anything else, for example.

 

That's going off the standard D&D alignment chart though. If you want to talk about generic good vs evil, then that's dependant on your point of view.

[Derpy]

Sheogorath is not good nor evil. He is just awesome.

[Cyonan]

Sheogorath is not good nor evil. He is just awesome.

 

That too.

 

Sheogorath is chaotic awesome.

[Derpy]

Shivering Isles = Best DLC ever.

[Yrkoon]

They're good at giving groups their own motivations for doing things, but the way in which they're going about it I would argue are still evil for the Forsworn or Dark Brotherhood.
 
The Forsworn basically just attack everybody on sight

Everybody on their site. They consider the Reach theirs. Their behavior reflects a strictly territorial motivation. On its own that's not "evil", that's just animalistic. Mudcrabs do the same thing.

It would be quite a different story if it went beyond the territorial and became more personal. Like if they spotted some farmer entering the Reach, then killed him, then went after his family way out in Whiterun or something.

Edit: There is a potentially evil act that they commit, but we're not given enough information on it. They kidnap a little girl (Sybil of Dibella quest). But they don't Harm her, so...

[Cyonan]

Everybody on their site. They consider the Reach theirs. Their behavior reflects a strictly territorial motivation. On its own that's not "evil", that's just animalistic. Mudcrabs do the same thing.

It would be quite a different story if it went beyond the territorial and became more personal. Like if they spotted some farmer entering the Reach, then killed him, then went after his family way out in Whiterun or something.

Edit: There is a potentially evil act that they commit, but we're not given enough information on it. They kidnap a little girl (Sybil of Dibella quest). But they don't Harm her, so...

 

Acting like an animal doesn't suddenly make your actions not evil.

 

Most animals get away with being considered neutral because they're going entirely off instinct. It's not a decidedly evil act they're committing because they have no concept of good vs evil or right vs wrong.

 

The same argument cannot be made for the Forsworn.

[The Baconer]

Well That's the thing about the Brotherhood they sell their sacred art for coin.

 

They are Mercenaries who's patron is the god of the void.

 

Sithis wants souls, and the Brotherhood gains coin, its a perfect arrangement for them.

 

Well... not really.

[Yrkoon]

Acting like an animal doesn't suddenly make your actions not evil.

Acting like an animal doesn't answer the question either way.
 

Most animals get away with being considered neutral because they're going entirely off instinct. It's not a decidedly evil act they're committing because they have no concept of good vs evil or right vs wrong.
 
The same argument cannot be made for the Forsworn.

Being territorial is an instinct already, and if you're foresworn, and you've got the Markarth incident still fresh in your mind as a reference point, then YES, being territorial for the sake of self defense (another Human instinct) is the argument that can be made here.

No, the better "foresworn are evil" argument is their association with Hagravens. But again, we have no idea what that's about. The game doesn't tell us.

[Master Warder Z_]

Well... not really.

 

Uh, Even the The Night Mother suggests that.

 

What do you bring that contradicts both Dark Brotherhood scripture and the mistress of the void?

[The Baconer]

Uh, Even the The Night Mother suggests that.

 

What do you bring that contradicts both Dark Brotherhood scripture and the mistress of the void?

 

Sithis, the Void, the essence of Padomay, is an existential force. It's no more of a sentient deity than gravity is.

[Cyonan]

Acting like an animal doesn't answer the question either way.
 
Being territorial is an instinct already, and if you're foresworn, and you've got the Markarth incident still fresh in your mind as a reference point, then YES, being territorial for the sake of self defense (another Human instinct) is the argument that can be made here.

No, the better "foresworn are evil" argument is their association with Hagravens. But again, we have no idea what that's about. The game doesn't tell us.

 

The thing is that the Forsworn have the intellectual capacity to go beyond just instinct and think about their actions. They aren't animals, even if they're acting like it at times.

 

It's human instinct to strike back at somebody who has attacked me. It can even be instinct to not trust outsiders after an event like the Markarth incident and be bitter towards everybody outside of your little group.

 

However, it's not human instinct to attack everybody who comes onto my land for 20 years including people who have technically joined my little group in the event you did that one quest. It's also not human instinct to plan murders designed to strike hear into the hearts of the people, as Weylin was instructed to do when you first enter Markarth.

[Master Warder Z_]

Sithis, the Void, the essence of Padomay, is an existential force. It's no more of a sentient deity than gravity is.

 

That's one theory on him anyway, its an interpretation of him being the opposite of Anu.

 

But even in that he was acting as a sentient force of change, not static stagnation.

 

Even when he was refered to as Padomay he wasn't a force of nature or nirn but a god.

[Derpy]

The Forsworn lore does not really intrigue me all that much compared to Daedric Prince lore. 

 

I just see them as savage beasts as I slaughter them left and right.

[The Baconer]

That's one theory on him anyway, its an interpretation of him being the opposite of Anu.

 

But even in that he was acting as a sentient force of change, not static stagnation.

 

Even when he was refered to as Padomay he wasn't a force of nature or nirn but a god.

 

The Aurbis (containing Nirn) inhabits a space between the interactions between Padomay and Anu. Sithis is entropy, chaos, change without design.

 

The so-called "Dread Father" that the Brotherhood worships is most likely an aspect of Lorkhan (note the statue in Deepscorn Hollow with a gaping hole where it's heart should be), or the result of a Daedric ploy, probably executed by Mephala.

[Master Warder Z_]

The Aurbis (containing Nirn) inhabits a space between the interactions between Padomay and Anu. Sithis is entropy, chaos, change without design.

 

The so-called "Dread Father" that the Brotherhood worships is most likely an aspect of Lorkhan (note the statue in Deepscorn Hollow with a gaping hole where it's heart should be), or the result of a Daedric ploy, probably executed by Mephala.

 

You know i went to the Elder Scrolls Wiki to brush up Sithis and these are two separate entities, and the argument they are the same apparently is a handful of comments from a book that was written in universe perspective.

 

Not Dev comment or Lore directed, just perspective driven.

 

So I don't even need to debate if Sithis is the same as Pan because the Lore has them classified as two separate entities at the moment

 

How about that ^.^ Occasionally citations actually pay off.

[Yrkoon]

However, it's not human instinct to attack everybody who comes onto my land for 20 years including people who have technically joined my little group in the event you did that one quest.

A couple things here. Just side notes really. Foresworn don't attack everybody who comes on their land. There's a giant Orc Stronghold right in the heart of Foresworn territory, for example. They don't attack it. There are also Thalmor that patrol the roads of the Reach on occasion. The Forsworn don't attack them either. They basically just attack 1) select Nords and Bretons inside Markarth and Karthwasten, and 2) the Dovakiin. And they only do #1 because, you know, there's a friggin war going on between them and Markarth.

 

It's also not human instinct to plan murders designed to strike hear into the hearts of the people, as Weylin was instructed to do when you first enter Markarth.

Wait... Thonar Silverblood is the one who planned that murder. He's not Forsworn.

[Derpy]

A little off topic but...

 

I find it sickening that when I search "Sheogorath" on Google Images, I get tons of MLP lookalikes and not Sheogorath things.

[The Baconer]

You know i went to the Elder Scrolls Wiki to brush up Sithis and these are two separate entities, and the argument they are the same apparently is a handful of comments from a book that was written in universe perspective.

 

Not Dev comment or Lore directed, just perspective driven.

 

So I don't even need to debate if Sithis is the same as Pan because the Lore has them classified as two separate entities at the moment

 

How about that ^.^ Occasionally citations actually pay off.

 

As in, the Wikia? Eeeewww

 

As I said, Sithis is the essence of Padomay, the realization of Padomaic tendency. Consider the origin of the name Sithis:

 

"...appropriately, Padomay is just as ineffable an entity as Anu. This is how the Psijiic Order treats him, at least. His original (Aldmeris? Ehlnofex?) name is PSJJJJ, which is and was meant to be unpronounceable. The Order was founded and organized to divine Padomay's eternal and ever-changing mystery. "Sithis" is a corruption of "Psijii" which, in turn, was a derivation of the high concept PSJJJJ. Sithis was born when a nihilist sect of the already doom-ridden Chimeri merged (under Mephala’s tutelage) Daedric elements with the Inexpressible Action that was Padomay. In essence they began to revere Padomay's Chaos nature (as opposed to that of Anu, who is Order), and over the years degenerated into a thuggish mystery-cult which wanted to 'murder the world.'"

[Evil]

If you want to beat the Thieves Guild by becoming the master, you have to do contracts and one needs you to go into a house and steal something but after you finish the civil war, the house is not enterable.

I've been meaning to ask:  Are there any other areas in the game that can only be entered once?

 

I know that the location for the final part of the main campaign is a one-off opportunity meaning that I'll have to loot everything I want to get in one go, but I thought it was the only Skyrim location with that annoyance until I read this post.

 

I want to leave the civil war, thieves guild and dark brotherhood quest lines until last, but I don't want to bork any optional quests like the one you mentioned.

[Master Warder Z_]

Yeah see, that notion is apparently only held together via conjecture by TES subscribers and not anything inherent in the lore of the Divine and the creation of the Nirn, if Beth ever declared him to be the same as that deity fine, until then i will consider him his own separate entity.

 

Just don't act like you're conjecture is based off anything more then a handful of sections in a few books that were written by scholars theorizing on the creation of the material realm during the age of the gods. After all we only get records after the founding of the Adamant tower, everything prior to that is basically theory.

[Derpy]

I've been meaning to ask: Are there any other areas in the game that can only be entered once?

I know that the location for the final part of the main campaign is a one-off opportunity meaning that I'll have to loot everything I want to get in one go, but I thought it was the only Skyrim location with that annoyance until I read this post.

I want to leave the civil war, thieves guild and dark brotherhood quest lines until last, but I don't want to bork any optional quests like the one you mentioned.

The DB hideout you start cant be accessed after some of the quests are finished and the part of Castle Dour can't be accessed after you try to assassinate the emperor.

If you do the CW before the TG, one of the buildings needed to be accessed will be blocked with no way around. There are likely more locations that are limited to acces but I can't remember all of them.