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[phaonica]

1136342t54 wrote...

Your not forced to play the good guy (The Empire is the lesser evil) your basically forced to not want yourself nor the rest of the world to die lol. Your character can still be rather evil and serve the Empire. You just can't be evil and help the Thalmor. Especially if your not a High elf. They really don't like other elves and especially humans. There is a reason why they stopped the worship of one of the most bad ass humans (now god) in history.

Well the best reason I can come up with for not letting us join the Thalmor is simply that the developers don't intend for the Thalmor to win. It has nothing to do with whether the Thalmor is evil or whether it does or doesn't make sense that any player might want to join that faction.

[Addai]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

My problem is I can't find motivation to play a non-Nord... I've been liking my Bosmer archer/ thief gameplay-wise but just don't like playing her in terms of the story.  I may have to make a Nord thief and live with the stat handicaps.

What stat handicaps? There are no stats anymore.

Yes there are.  Different races start out with different skill stats.  Nords get +5 smithing, block, one-handed, two-handed, and speech.  The beast races and wood elves have a distinct advantage in rogue type skills.

[1136342t54_]

phaonica wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...

Your not forced to play the good guy (The Empire is the lesser evil) your basically forced to not want yourself nor the rest of the world to die lol. Your character can still be rather evil and serve the Empire. You just can't be evil and help the Thalmor. Especially if your not a High elf. They really don't like other elves and especially humans. There is a reason why they stopped the worship of one of the most bad ass humans (now god) in history.

Well the best reason I can come up with for not letting us join the Thalmor is simply that the developers don't intend for the Thalmor to win. It has nothing to do with whether the Thalmor is evil or whether it does or doesn't make sense that any player might want to join that faction.

To be honest its akin to wanting to join the ****s. The difference is the Thalmor at times could be considered worse if you take there true desires at heart. The devs not wanting the Thalmor to win is akin to Lucas not wanting the Empire to win in Return of the jedi. Hell I'm not sure if the Thalmor would let anyone who isn't Altmer join them unless they were basically a mercenary.

[Addai]

Dave of Canada was playing an Altmer assassin/ infiltrator, as I recall. Which sounded like a fun concept.

[1136342t54_]

greengoron89 wrote...

I imagine the Thalmor would be an Altmer/Bosmer-only faction - I couldn't possibly see them allowing any other race to join given their staunch elf-supremacy mindset.

Out of curiosity, has anyone here actually played a High Elf? I'd be interested to hear how the Thalmor respond to your character compared to characters of other races.

I'd heard they are still ****s to your High Elf character. Hell the Thalmor are ****s to their own who aren't mages why wouldn't they be arrogant to their own kind lol. Actually one person was attacked by Thalmor who accused his Altmer character for worshipping Talos.

[phaonica]

1136342t54 wrote...
 
To be honest its akin to wanting to join the ****s.The difference is the Thalmor at times could be considered worse if you take there true desires at heart.

So what? How is wanting to join the Thalmor so different from wanting to join the Dark Brotherhood? You can be the most bloodthirsty, evil character you want to, but joining the Thalmor is crossing the line?

The devs not wanting the Thalmor to win is akin to Lucas not wanting the Empire to win in Return of the jedi.

No it isn't. Skyrim is a video game, and generally the players expect to be put into a position where they can win. If the devs don't intend for the Thalmor to win in the story that they're making, then they probably shouldn't let the players join a faction that is fated to lose.

[phaonica]

greengoron89 wrote...

I imagine the Thalmor would be an Altmer/Bosmer-only faction - I couldn't possibly see them allowing any other race to join given their staunch elf-supremacy mindset.

Out of curiosity, has anyone here actually played a High Elf? I'd be interested to hear how the Thalmor respond to your character compared to characters of other races.

I 've been playing a high elf. I was hoping to have some interesting conversations with Ondolemar. He was rather nice to me! He said something about enjoying my company.
 

[1136342t54_]

phaonica wrote...
So what? How is wanting to join the Thalmor so different from wanting to join the Dark Brotherhood? You can be the most bloodthirsty, evil character you want to, but joining the Thalmor is crossing the line?

Dark Brotherhood wants to keep killing for money and Sithis. What they usually do isn't exactly World breaking. The Thalmor essentially want to create the Elven version of the Sith Empire and seem to really want to go back to the time where everything was just spirits and time didn't exist how it does regularly. Essentially there is a reason why they are suspected possibly letting loose dragons that could end the world.

No it isn't. Skyrim is a video game, and generally the players expect to be put into a position where they can win. If the devs don't intend for the Thalmor to win in the story that they're making, then they probably shouldn't let the players join a faction that is fated to lose.

The Thalmor so far seems like the big bad empire that the devs do not want you working for (which makes a lot of sense story wise).

They don't allow you to join the Thalmor so what's the problem?

[phaonica]

1136342t54 wrote...
Dark Brotherhood wants to keep killing for money and Sithis. What they usually do isn't exactly World breaking.
... The Thalmor so far seems like the big bad empire that the devs
do not want you working for (which makes a lot of sense story wise).

Exactly, that's my whole point. Not being able to join the Thalmor has nothing to do with how evil they are, it has everything to do with the consequences of letting a player join, i.e. the Thalmor could win, which doesn't seem to be the devs' plan.

[HoonDing]

greengoron89 wrote...

Out of curiosity, has anyone here actually played a High Elf? I'd be interested to hear how the Thalmor respond to your character compared to characters of other races.

[1136342t54_]

phaonica wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...
Dark Brotherhood wants to keep killing for money and Sithis. What they usually do isn't exactly World breaking.
... The Thalmor so far seems like the big bad empire that the devs
do not want you working for (which makes a lot of sense story wise).

Exactly, that's my whole point. Not being able to join the Thalmor has nothing to do with how evil they are, it has everything to do with the consequences of letting a player join, i.e. the Thalmor could win, which doesn't seem to be the devs' plan.

Yes it does have to do with how evil they are. The devs likely doesn't want the world living under the freaking Sith who will oppress everyone not Altmer. If the Thalmor were freaking Saints and the Empire were the oppressors we would likely be given a chance to work as a Thalmor agent. Part of the reason why we can't work for the Thalmor in game is due to there dislike for everyone not Altmer and even Altmer themselves aren't always classified as worthy. 

The consequences of people like Dovahkiin, Nevarine and Champion of Cyrodill joining the Thalmor (which wouldn't make anysense in game) would lead to the Aldmeri Dominion taking over Tamriel again and screwing over everyone. It is not only in the Devs plan for the player not to join the Thalmor it also makes no sense since it would be like the Tevinter Imperium letting a Qunari Mage be responsible for leading the charge against a Exalted March. It would make little sense.

[Addai]

The Thalmor don't want to oppress people- they want the world to not only be destroyed, they want the very pattern of humanity to be erased as a cosmic possibility, so that they (the Altmer) will never have to be chained to mortal existence again. I wouldn't mind there being an option to aid them, but it wouldn't make sense for anyone but an Altmer or a self-hating Bosmer.

[Laser Beam]

Addai67 wrote...

The Thalmor don't want to oppress people- they want the world to not only be destroyed, they want the very pattern of humanity to be erased as a cosmic possibility, so that they (the Altmer) will never have to be chained to mortal existence again. I wouldn't mind there being an option to aid them, but it wouldn't make sense for anyone but an Altmer or a self-hating Bosmer.

I still think they have the right idea. Then again I ♥ Altmer.

[1136342t54_]

Addai67 wrote...

The Thalmor don't want to oppress people- they want the world to not only be destroyed, they want the very pattern of humanity to be erased as a cosmic possibility, so that they (the Altmer) will never have to be chained to mortal existence again. I wouldn't mind there being an option to aid them, but it wouldn't make sense for anyone but an Altmer or a self-hating Bosmer.

Thalmor do oppress people but it is basically for fun until they get to freaking destroy humanity and life as people in Tamriel know it. 

They will basically be another big bad to slay.

[1136342t54_]

Laser Beam wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

The Thalmor don't want to oppress people- they want the world to not only be destroyed, they want the very pattern of humanity to be erased as a cosmic possibility, so that they (the Altmer) will never have to be chained to mortal existence again. I wouldn't mind there being an option to aid them, but it wouldn't make sense for anyone but an Altmer or a self-hating Bosmer.

I still think they have the right idea. Then again I ♥ Altmer.

There right idea will likely end up in genocide in more than just a few races.


Thats why I say BURN IT WITH FIRE!!! When it comes to most Altmer. Seriously became even more annoying in this game.

Modifié par 1136342t54 , 04 décembre 2011 - 03:58 .

[Laser Beam]

1136342t54 wrote...

There right idea will likely end up in genocide in more than just a few races.


Thats why I say BURN IT WITH FIRE!!! When it comes to most Altmer. Seriously became even more annoying in this game.

Well, then I hope you feel the same about the Nords, if you want to judge an entire race on a selective group. This is really Bethesda's fault however for stigmatizing the High Elves for so long.

Modifié par Laser Beam, 04 décembre 2011 - 04:01 .

[1136342t54_]

Laser Beam wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...

There right idea will likely end up in genocide in more than just a few races.


Thats why I say BURN IT WITH FIRE!!! When it comes to most Altmer. Seriously became even more annoying in this game.

Well, then I hope you feel the same about the Nords, if you want to judge an entire race on a selective group. This is really Bethesda's fault however for stigmatizing the High Elves for so long.

You should know I really don't like the Stormcloaks much either nor the Empire (Empire is more favored though). Most Altmer I meet in game are ****s and I wouldn't have much problem killing. I don't really think all High Elves deserve to die which is the reason why I'm going to play a awesome but also rather douchebag Altmer mage. He may be unpleasant but he gets rid of Skyrim's problems.

Edit: Altmer in general are rather arrogant but it just ranges for most people. Hell one of the books pretty much explains why they must be that way. They must be high so that there meager mortal existence would be less horrible.

Modifié par 1136342t54 , 04 décembre 2011 - 04:13 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Addai67 wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I think people are unreasonable because they fail to provide a strong argument to back what they believe. The Redguards did not win, they resisted and made peace with the Thalmor just as the Empire did, though ofc not on the same terms.

The cost for that however? Half their entire country is completely devasted.

As for stability. Having a rebellious Jarl win will cause a great deal more then having the Empire win, it's a simple fact, since the Empire won't be destroyed, just a single Legion of it. However if Ulfric dies the Rebelion dies with him.

My biggest problem is that things I constantly argue for ( Loghain, TIM, Order Witcher etc. ) is that people are like: Oh but they were ****s to me, so **** em.

If Ulfric's rebellion fails, the Thalmor continue to crawl around Skyrim- that is hardly stability.  I don't know how people expect the empire to regroup when there are Thalmor everywhere spying on them.

If the empire had simply made a truce with the Thalmor, I don't think we'd see any of this going on.  It's the fact that Titus Meade gave the Thalmor everything they wanted short of genocide, and is now cooperating with them, that  angered the Nords who fought in the war.  If you had bled for a hard-earned victory, and then saw the politicians go to the bargaining table and give everything away anyway and start collaborating with the enemy, I bet you'd be pissed too.  With friends like that, who needs enemies.

The Thalmor will be there regardless, either with approval or not. They are spies and they defeated the Blades remember. Titus understood this, he also understood he had no means to fight a Shadow War. Ulfric doesn't either.

For crying out loud the Thalmor ENGINEERED the Civil War of Skyrim.

As for fighting a hard earned victory and getting pissed at the politicians, there's one thing you need to understand about the army: You don't disobey orders, even bad ones. There's no argument about that kind of stuff there and most certainly no debate.

There are also plenty of nords who support the Empire, that is a fact, and Ulfric is a murderer as I see it. A bloodthrity, meglomaniac murderer who thinks he acts on behalf of his people, but just don't forget he is a Jarl by blood not merit.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 04 décembre 2011 - 04:23 .

[Addai]

The Thalmor are only able to operate openly in Skyrim because of the empire's support. They are there observing your execution at the beginning of the game, the empire is using them to interrogate Stormcloak supporters, they are in Markarth and Solitude- not in Stormcloak held territory.  Once those areas are liberated, you don't see them anymore.  I'm sure they'll still try to spy, but at game time they can do so with impunity.

If your view of a good war leader is one who always licks the boots of superiors no matter what leadership does, we'll have to differ on that. I see plenty of backbone and courage on Ulfric's part, and he got where he was through the hardest circumstances possible. Can't say the same for Elisif. She's the one I really pity, though my Stormcloak pities her the way you pity a bug you accidentally step on. Woman doesn't even have the backbone to honor her own husband by taking his token to the Talos shrine- she has to have a complete stranger do it. Veleda still did her errand, for Talos' sake and because at least Torygg had died bravely.

What the Thalmor tried to engineer is chaos. That's why my PC wanted to ensure that Ulfric won quickly and decisively.

Modifié par Addai67, 04 décembre 2011 - 04:36 .

[1136342t54_]

Addai67 wrote...

The Thalmor are only able to operate openly in Skyrim because of the empire's support. They are there observing your execution at the beginning of the game, the empire is using them to interrogate Stormcloak supporters, they are in Markarth and Solitude- not in Stormcloak held territory.  Once those areas are liberated, you don't see them anymore.  I'm sure they'll still try to spy, but at game time they can do so with impunity.

If your view of a good war leader is one who always licks the boots of superiors no matter what leadership does, we'll have to differ on that. I see plenty of backbone and courage on Ulfric's part, and he got where he was through the hardest circumstances possible. Can't say the same for Elisif. She's the one I really pity, though my Stormcloak pities her the way you pity a bug you accidentally step on. Woman doesn't even have the backbone to honor her own husband by taking his token to the Talos shrine- she has to have a complete stranger do it. Veleda still did her errand, for Talos' sake and because at least Torygg had died bravely.

What the Thalmor tried to engineer is chaos. That's why my PC wanted to ensure that Ulfric won quickly and decisively.

The Thalmore basically got what they wanted either way.

The Empire wins Skyrim. They have there lands back but a still divided nation and basically more territory they have to defend against a Empire that is currently building its forces. The Empire have no real way of attacking the Aldmeri without making themselves weaker which is the main reason why they had to agree with banning the worship of Talos.

If Stormcloaks win then you basically have the country defended by a military that was only barely able to beat back a Imperial force that would have been crushed by the Altmer. Skyrim is far more vulnerable as a military target then you have Ulfric the jackass who is more of a Nord first guy and is boardering on the idea of  "If your not with me your against me." Seriously it was much easier for me to side with him when he couldn't speak.

Also you couldn't really blame Elisif. If she even hinted at trying to recognize Talos as a deity it would be her ass. A unknown doing this would be much better for this task.

[Giggles_Manically]

Both factions are Grey really and still I cant choose right now.

Though I think Tullius is a better person than Ulfric.

[phaonica]

1136342t54 wrote...

Yes it does have to do with how evil they are. The devs likely doesn't want the world living under the freaking Sith who will oppress everyone not Altmer.

Okay, fine. I am willing to concede that you can't play a Thalmor because the devs don't want the Thalmor to win because the Thalmor winning would be too devastating. 

If the Thalmor were freaking Saints and the Empire were the oppressors we would likely be given a chance to work as a Thalmor agent.

I dont think so. Whether or not you can join a faction has nothing to do with whether the faction is evil or not.

Part of the reason why we can't work for the Thalmor in game is due to there dislike for everyone not Altmer and even Altmer themselves aren't always classified as worthy. 

If the devs wanted to make the Thalmor playable, they need only have rewritten the story in such a way that allowed for non Altmer to play.

It is not only in the Devs plan for the player not to join the Thalmor it also makes no sense since it would be like the Tevinter Imperium letting a Qunari Mage be responsible for leading the charge against a Exalted March. It would make little sense.

I dont think they're comparable. I don't think anything says that the Dragonborn is a natural enemy of the Thalmor.

[1136342t54_]

phaonica wrote...
I dont think so. Whether or not you can join a faction has nothing to do with whether the faction is evil or not.

They aren't really just "I'm an Assassin I'll kill because Sithis commands and I get paid for it." evil they are "I will erase your species from the timeline and rewrite reality to the point where the MASTER RACE Altmer can live as immortal spirits destroying reality as you know it."

If the devs wanted to make the Thalmor playable, they need only have rewritten the story in such a way that allowed for non Altmer to play.

Sure. Just like Bioware could have made the Archdemon less into killing everyone so you it could be your possible ally. They would have to rewrite the Altmer entire history. Hell its possble the history to the creation of Tamriel would have some rewrites. Thalmor are very bad worse than the Dark Brotherhood. You may disagree but due to their true goals you won't be able to side with them even if you want to.

I dont think they're comparable. I don't think anything says that the Dragonborn is a natural enemy of the Thalmor.

Considering that Tiber Septim (****ign Dragonborn) is the creator of the freaking Empire I'd say the Thalnor would definitely not like any Dragonborn and would in fact probably kill the Dragonborn.

[Addai]

1136342t54 wrote...

The Thalmore basically got what they wanted either way.

Eh, I don't agree.  People give the Thalmors too much credit, and underestimate the losses they've suffered and can't easily recoup due to low birth rate and their own penchant for killing their young.

IMO an independent Skyrim is bad news for them.  But I'm tired of arguing it.

Also you couldn't really blame Elisif. If she even hinted at trying to recognize Talos as a deity it would be her ass. A unknown doing this would be much better for this task.

And that is what the empire has reduced the Nord jarls to.  I completely share Ulfric's disgust, so I also completely understand why he did what he did.