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[Morroian]

Addai67 wrote...

I think you're wrong about that- but even so, my point is that the empire may be weakening themselves more than they know by turning their backs on their divine champion.  Recall that the divines in Tamriel are real, and they do actually show up on occasion via avatars.  People who say that Ulfric is playing into the Thalmor's hand should read their manifesto.  Step one is to get rid of Talos.  It's that important to them.  It's the one thing they insisted on in the treaty- and Titus Meade just handed it to them, after a victory no less.

Yet there is still Ulfric in Sovngarde admitting he was wrong.

[Andarthiel_Demigod]

Finally found a highe-res Nightingale armour mod, I am happy

[phaonica]

1136342t54 wrote...

The Empire was willing to embarass the **** out of themselves by banning the worship mother****ing TALOS.

Giving up Talos and half of Hammerfell wasn't an act of humility.

While infuriating it was the smart decision. If they were really stubborn they would have flipped the Aldmeri off and likely loss the war.

I'm not disagreeing that the Concordant may have been a good idea at the time. When you're beaten, you lose things. That's war. But between Skyrim and Hammerfell, it looks like the Empire has run out of time on living up to the promise of eventually fighting back. The Empire can either work with those groups as allied independants, or waste resources attempting to reconquer them. So yes, I still think the empire is just as stubborn.

Ulfric was unwilling to let that go at all and saw that as the ultimate insult to the point where he believes its his right to kick the Empire out of Skyrim weakening them further.

Ulfic is not the only Stormcloak. There are plenty of people in Skyrim who want to fight back agaist the Thalmor, and the Empire is in their way.

I would be more for him to do that but the thing is Ulfric controlling Skyrim is essentially worse than the Empire especially due to his view of non Nords.

The Empire has a history of treating people like inferiors, too. In Morrowind, the Empire protects the slavery trade.

They had a chance didn't you just read how the Stormcloaks were kicking the Empire's ass? They had a chance but it just became less likely when Tullius gained control of the Imperials.

That's my point. You were claiming that the Stormcloaks didn't stand a chance against the Empire without the Dragonborn's help. I was arguing that yes, they did.

[adneate]

Talos worship isn't widespread in Tamriel, in High Rock for example he's not particularly well loved since he sold many Bretons into slavery after his victory at Sancre Tor. Plus some Bretons still follow a few of the "Divines" of the Altmer who use to rule over them. The Redguards have their own pantheon that includes some of the Nine Divines but not all of them.

Really being able to worship Talos wouldn't be much of a rallying cry outside of Cyrodil and Skyrim since as a Polythestic people most tend to gravitate to one Divine or the other.

All and all I think the whole Thalmor and their desire to unmake the world is probably something that's going to be in TES VI. Since to totally destroy their nest in the Sommerset Isles would require a Shezarrine, a Divine Champion of Lorkhan sent to pacify the Elves and make them give up their desire to destroy the mortal world. Or another Pelenial Whitestrake who just goes on homicidal rampages where he kills Elves until someone mentions that he stopped killing Elves 3 months ago and has been killing cats instead.

Oops.

[Sylvianus]

phaonica wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
Faith is not at stake in this war for many people, tbh. Surviving is already something stronger and more symbolic. If you talk to all NPC who are worried about thalmor, you see that faith (at least for those who aren't nords ) is not the first thing of their concern. Faith without survival and freedom is meaningless. That is what The Empire is trying to fight for in long-term. The Thalmors are a real threat to their existence, their lives of free
citizens. A threat to the existence of the Empire, not just a spiritual
and religious threat.Moreover, faith is not something that disappears like that, easily. The
Empire is counting on a break, knowing what is at stake, and the risks.

And thanks for the word learned.

Taking away how they are allowed to express their faith *is* taking away their freedom. Taking away their ability to worship Talos isn't just about Talos or the act of worship. It's about having their freedom taken away.

It is nothing compared to what The Thalmor decide if they really get the final victory. And this final victory has been postponed due to the intelligence of the Empire, which finally realized it would lose the war, worst, it would disappear in this conflict.

After years of unsuccessful war, a total disaster where you've learned the power of the enemy. Why would you choose the path of disunity for a detail that spirituality in private may overcome ?

Is it worth it to choose the path of what you present as rather die than live a slave ? Why not choose to gather more forces, think about other issues that those that did not work ?

To fight against the Thalmor is fine. How about to survive first, to win and destroy definitely this threat ?

[Sylvianus]

phaonica wrote...

I would be more for him to do that but the thing is Ulfric controlling Skyrim is essentially worse than the Empire especially due to his view of non Nords.

The Empire has a history of treating people like inferiors, too. In Morrowind, the Empire protects the slavery trade.

Are you telling him that the Empire is as racist as Ulfric and the Stormcloak ? Because that's not true at all. All the citizens are equals within the Empire. And Kadjiit, Argonians, are allowed in cities, dunmers have high political post.

Racists, there are in all countries. The difference is the system, and the policy of segregation that can be conducted.

[Addai]

Morroian wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I think you're wrong about that- but even so, my point is that the empire may be weakening themselves more than they know by turning their backs on their divine champion.  Recall that the divines in Tamriel are real, and they do actually show up on occasion via avatars.  People who say that Ulfric is playing into the Thalmor's hand should read their manifesto.  Step one is to get rid of Talos.  It's that important to them.  It's the one thing they insisted on in the treaty- and Titus Meade just handed it to them, after a victory no less.

Yet there is still Ulfric in Sovngarde admitting he was wrong.

I already addressed this.  The fact that he has regret doesn't mean he was actually wrong.  He's looking back on a failed rebellion, of course it's going to seem empty.

[phaonica]

Sylvianus wrote...

Are you telling him that the Empire is as racist as Ulfric and the Stormcloak ? Because that's not true at all. All the citizens are equals within the Empire. And Kadjiit, Argonians, are allowed in cities, dunmers have high political post.

Racists, there are in all countries. The difference is the system, and the policy of segregation that can be conducted.

IIRC, all citizens are not equals within the Empire, because the Dunmer in Morrowind practice slavery (particularly of other Dunmer and the beast races) and the Empire protects those laws as part of the agreement that Morrowind join the Empire in the first place.

[Brockololly]

adneate wrote...
All and all I think the whole Thalmor and their desire to unmake the world is probably something that's going to be in TES VI. Since to totally destroy their nest in the Sommerset Isles would require a Shezarrine, a Divine Champion of Lorkhan sent to pacify the Elves and make them give up their desire to destroy the mortal world. Or another Pelenial Whitestrake who just goes on homicidal rampages where he kills Elves until someone mentions that he stopped killing Elves 3 months ago and has been killing cats instead.

Oops.

Or else they'll focus more on the Thalmor in any DLC/expack.

But yeah, I could see the next major Elder Scrolls game going to the Sommerset Isles. Although, considering how they jump forward in time as much as they do between games, for all we know the Thalmor issue might be resolved by then.

[1136342t54_]

phaonica wrote...
up Talos and half of Hammerfell wasn't an act of humility.

I didn't say it was an act of humility I said it was a smart decision.

I'm not disagreeing that the Concordant may have been a good idea at the time. When you're beaten, you lose things. That's war. But between Skyrim and Hammerfell, it looks like the Empire has run out of time on living up to the promise of eventually fighting back. The Empire can either work with those groups as allied independants, or waste resources attempting to reconquer them. So yes, I still think the empire is just as stubborn.

Taking back Skyrim is better than letting it being independant (well not much better).

In most revolutions when the nation just kicked your ass and won independence it is highly unlikely to ally with you so soon after victory. The reasons for the rebellion will likely make an alliance shakey at the start. Any real resources the Empire would need from Skyrim while in a war wouldn't really be enough since I doubt Ulfric would keep giving the Empire everything they needed and continue the trading as if it was like it was part of the Empire. It just doesn't work like that especially right after a war of independence.

Ulfic is not the only Stormcloak. There are plenty of people in Skyrim who want to fight back agaist the Thalmor, and the Empire is in their way.

He is the leader of the Stormcloaks and will be Highking soon. His opininon matter a lot unfortunately. If Skyrim want to fight back against the Thalmor then go ahead. They shouldn't cry when they get there asses handed to them. They are unlikely to win a war against the Thalmor immediately. Ulfric should know this and would hopefully make sure he can build up his forces before the Dominion attack. The Empire wanted to wait until they could properly recover from the war and rebuild before they continue.

The Empire has a history of treating people like inferiors, too. In Morrowind, the Empire protects the slavery trade.

Either way the Empire is more likely to unite multiple nations and races because they have been far longer than Skyrim alone has.

That's my point. You were claiming that the Stormcloaks didn't stand a chance against the Empire without the Dragonborn's help. I was arguing that yes, they did.

No I did not make that claim at all I constantly stated how the Stormcloaks were winning the war and even after they turned it around it was never actually going to be a quick win at all.

[Sylvianus]

adneate wrote...

Talos worship isn't widespread in Tamriel, in High Rock for example he's not particularly well loved since he sold many Bretons into slavery after his victory at Sancre Tor. Plus some Bretons still follow a few of the "Divines" of the Altmer who use to rule over them. The Redguards have their own pantheon that includes some of the Nine Divines but not all of them.

Really being able to worship Talos wouldn't be much of a rallying cry outside of Cyrodil and Skyrim since as a Polythestic people most tend to gravitate to one Divine or the other.

All and all I think the whole Thalmor and their desire to unmake the world is probably something that's going to be in TES VI. Since to totally destroy their nest in the Sommerset Isles would require a Shezarrine, a Divine Champion of Lorkhan sent to pacify the Elves and make them give up their desire to destroy the mortal world. Or another Pelenial Whitestrake who just goes on homicidal rampages where he kills Elves until someone mentions that he stopped killing Elves 3 months ago and has been killing cats instead.

Oops.

Well, thanks, I thought also that Talos wasn't really what would unite all the Empire against the Thalmor. As I said, only the Nords were really bothered by that point... The fact that almost only nord npc talk about that, shows to me that this point isn't so much important for the others..

[1136342t54_]

phaonica wrote...

IIRC, all citizens are not equals within the Empire, because the Dunmer in Morrowind practice slavery (particularly of other Dunmer and the beast races) and the Empire protects those laws as part of the agreement that Morrowind join the Empire in the first place.

It was a sacrifice for a stronger and more united Empire since it was unlikely Morrowind would have gave up slavery. It is only a law that is valis in Morrowind not anywhere else. Everywhere else in the Empire people are equal.

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...
I'm not disagreeing that the Concordant may have been a good idea at the time. When you're beaten, you lose things.

That's the thing- they weren't beaten.  They had just won a big victory.  Sure both sides are exhausted, but that is not the time to give up the farm.

[1136342t54_]

Addai67 wrote...
 That's the thing- they weren't beaten.  They had just won a big victory.  Sure both sides are exhausted, but that is not the time to give up the farm.

Your right they won a big victory but right after getting a large amount of their forces obliterated and losing a lot of territory in Hammerfell. They weren't in the position to actually continue the war but the Dominion were. The Elves won a strategic victory.

Modifié par 1136342t54 , 06 décembre 2011 - 03:41 .

[Addai]

adneate wrote...

Talos worship isn't widespread in Tamriel, in High Rock for example he's not particularly well loved since he sold many Bretons into slavery after his victory at Sancre Tor. Plus some Bretons still follow a few of the "Divines" of the Altmer who use to rule over them. The Redguards have their own pantheon that includes some of the Nine Divines but not all of them.

Really being able to worship Talos wouldn't be much of a rallying cry outside of Cyrodil and Skyrim since as a Polythestic people most tend to gravitate to one Divine or the other.

Although according to Michael Kirkbride, Talos is the most powerful figure in the TES universe.  Another reason I say- giving up the man-god is not something you want to do in the face of an enemy that wants to unmake humanity first by scrubbing him from the pantheon.

Here are some of his quotes.

What appears to be an Altmeri commentary on Talos:
To kill Man is to reach Heaven, from where we came before the Doom Drum's iniquity. When we accomplish this, we can escape the mockery and long shame of the Material Prison.

To achieve this goal, we must:
1) Erase the Upstart Talos from the mythic. His presence fortifies the Wheel of the Convention, and binds our souls to this plane...

On the "most powerful" being:
Talos.
The HoonDing.
Trinimac.
Vivec.
Leki.
Reman.
Auri-El.
Wulfharth.
Morihaus.
Pelinal.
That's my list, and pretty much in that order. Though Vivec did kill Tiber Septim once...but I mentioned Talos, not the Emperor.

Modifié par Addai67, 06 décembre 2011 - 03:44 .

[Sylvianus]

phaonica wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Are you telling him that the Empire is as racist as Ulfric and the Stormcloak ? Because that's not true at all. All the citizens are equals within the Empire. And Kadjiit, Argonians, are allowed in cities, dunmers have high political post.

Racists, there are in all countries. The difference is the system, and the policy of segregation that can be conducted.

IIRC, all citizens are not equals within the Empire, because the Dunmer in Morrowind practice slavery (particularly of other Dunmer and the beast races) and the Empire protects those laws as part of the agreement that Morrowind join the Empire in the first place.

 Morrowind is not totally within the Empire, unlike all other imperial regions, its laws and traditions may continue to be made ​​if it does not attempt to move away from the empire. Dunmers have even their own religion.

The Argonians within the empire and other imperial regions are as free as the others. They are not slaves. They do not hate the empire because it doesn't do anything, only Dunmer. There is no anti-foreign bias against them,

Moreover, if the empire would supported morrowind, they would help them in their conflict against the Argonians, whichwas/ is not the case.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 06 décembre 2011 - 03:47 .

[Addai]

1136342t54 wrote...
Your right they won a big victory but right after getting a large amount of their forces obliterated and losing a lot of territory in Hammerfell. They weren't in the position to actually continue the war but the Dominion were. The Elves won a strategic victory.

I don't think it's clear that the Altmer were also able to continue, not as they had been.  Their main force was destroyed at Red Ring.

The strategic victory they won is in convincing Titus Meade to capitulate.

[Sylvianus]

It is easier to negotiate after a victory than after a defeat. I can not imagine the terrible conditions imposed by Thamors after a defeat. The empire has jumped at the chance after a brush with disaster.

That's exactly what were trying to make the Germans during the First World War when they knew the war was lost after the entry of the United States into the war and the first major defeats.

They were seeking great victory at any cost in order to be in a better position to negotiate and survive. ( to save their empire for example ) They knew they would lose in the long term. They failed, but the thought was brilliant.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 06 décembre 2011 - 04:13 .

[phaonica]

1136342t54 wrote...

phaonica wrote...
up Talos and half of Hammerfell wasn't an act of humility.

I didn't say it was an act of humility I said it was a smart decision.

You said they were willing to embarass themselves, like they were willing to sacrifice their pride for the greater good, in a way that Ulfric wasn't. It's not exactly willing when it's part of your terms of surrender.

In most revolutions when the nation just kicked your ass and won independence it is highly unlikely to ally with you so soon after victory. The reasons for the rebellion will likely make an alliance shakey at the start. Any real resources the Empire would need from Skyrim while in a war wouldn't really be enough since I doubt Ulfric would keep giving the Empire everything they needed and continue the trading as if it was like it was part of the Empire. It just doesn't work like that especially right after a war of independence.

Well if they hadn't been fighting for so long, if Skyrim had been given its independance instead of having to have a long drawn out war over it, there wouldnt be so much bad blood between them.

He is the leader of the Stormcloaks and will be Highking soon. His opininon matter a lot unfortunately. If Skyrim want to fight back against the Thalmor then go ahead. They shouldn't cry when they get there asses handed to them.

As a Stormcloak, no, I wouldn't cry over it. I'd go out knowing that I had at least tried, instead of waiting around while the Thalmor gripped tighter and tighter.

Either way the Empire is more likely to unite multiple nations and races because they have been far longer than Skyrim alone has.

Fine. But let them unite independant nations, rather than trying to reconquer them.

That's my point. You were claiming that the Stormcloaks didn't stand a chance against the Empire without the Dragonborn's help. I was arguing that yes, they did.

No I did not make that claim at all I constantly stated how the Stormcloaks were winning the war and even after they turned it around it was never actually going to be a quick win at all.

You are right. I got you mixed up with another poster. I apologize.

[The Hierophant]

Addai67 wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...
Your right they won a big victory but right after getting a large amount of their forces obliterated and losing a lot of territory in Hammerfell. They weren't in the position to actually continue the war but the Dominion were. The Elves won a strategic victory.

I don't think it's clear that the Altmer were also able to continue, not as they had been.  Their main force was destroyed at Red Ring.

The strategic victory they won is in convincing Titus Meade to capitulate.

Or it could be that the imperial top brass are devising an elaborate Batman gambit that'll pay off soon, but that may be wishful thinking on my part.

[1136342t54_]

Addai67 wrote...
I don't think it's clear that the Altmer were also able to continue, not as they had been.  Their main force was destroyed at Red Ring.

The strategic victory they won is in convincing Titus Meade to capitulate.

Its pretty obvious. The Aldmeri was basically on the offensive most of the time against the Empire and lost little to no ground. The Empire only one a victory barely after the capital was nearly sacked.  The Altmer were in a better position to launch another attack than the Empire ever was. 

Hell Sylvanus said it best. Its better for the Empire to negotiate after a victory.

[1136342t54_]

greengoron89 wrote...

The Empire is not going to "unite" anything, to tell you the truth. Hammerfell already told the Empire to GTFO - and even if you support the Empire and crush the Stormcloak rebellion, the Nords will not so easily just cast aside their anti-Empire sentiments. In fact, it will make the Nords more bitter than ever, especially if the Thalmor start marching in and dragging people off in Whiterun, Riften, Windhelm etc.

Everyone thinks the Empire has betrayed them - and perhaps they're right to an extent. The Empire's authority is eroding and support is waning, no matter what.

So there is not going to be a good outcome no matter who you side with. It's probably the grayest choice I've ever seen in a videogame, exceeding even many of DA:O's choices IMHO.

The general sentiment in Skyrim is that the Nords are pissed at the Empire and the White concordat but they still believe in the Empire and will not become traitors. Hell most of the jarls seem to side with the Empire since they don't want to become traitors since they have been loyal to the Empire for so long and their beliefs. The Redguard actually beating the Altmer was a bit of strategic victory on the Altmer part. It was after the Empire agreed to Thalmor terms but the Redguards proved that they could kick Altmer ass. It made the Empire seem weaker and more divided.

[Sylvianus]

greengoron89 wrote...

The Empire is not going to "unite"
anything, to tell you the truth. Hammerfell already told the Empire to GTFO - and even if you support the Empire and crush the Stormcloak rebellion, the Nords will not so easily just cast aside their anti-Empire sentiments. In fact, it will make the Nords more bitter than ever, especially if the Thalmor start marching in and dragging people
off in Whiterun, Riften, Windhelm etc.Everyone thinks the Empire has betrayed them - and perhaps they're right to an extent. The Empire's authority is eroding and support is waning, no matter what.

So there is not going to be a good outcome no matter who you side with. It's probably the grayest choice I've ever seen in a videogame, exceeding even many of DA:O's choices IMHO.

I do not agree for the Nords. The stormcloak are a minority, supporters of the empire are also a minority. The majority wants to end the civil war. The troops of the empire have a lot of nords in the imperial army and this is one of the reasons that lead Torryg to doubt about the independence of Skyrim although he wished it.

Ulfric is not supported by all Jarls, on the contrary, it meets resistance. That proves they aren't so bitter against the empire.

And the most important is that, the empire could become popular in deciding to fight again against Thalmors when the time comes. The Nords can dislike the empire, but they are especially proud warriors with honor, who will be happy to take their revenge some years after, no doubts. If they are still in the empire, they would be the first to hit. They hate very much the Thamor, and that's why as well , they don't like the Empire either...

Also the fact that the death of Ulfric would have ended the war, shows that stormcloak are not as established in the minds of the nords than intended.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 06 décembre 2011 - 04:35 .

[1136342t54_]

phaonica wrote...
You said they were willing to embarass themselves, like they were willing to sacrifice their pride for the greater good, in a way that Ulfric wasn't. It's not exactly willing when it's part of your terms of surrender.

So lets say it was terms for a surrender (if it was losing the worship of Talos wouldn't have been the worst thing to happen) and if the Empire was that weak then Ulfric would look like a ****ing idiot for attempting to kick the Empire out of Skyrim for simply losing battles and nearly losing a war.

Well if they hadn't been fighting for so long, if Skyrim had been given its independance instead of having to have a long drawn out war over it, there wouldnt be so much bad blood between them.

So the Empire should just give every nation under its control independence over a pyrrhic victory that could have resulted in the loss of the entire Empire? Tell me how is that good for its survival.

As a Stormcloak, no, I wouldn't cry over it. I'd go out knowing that I had at least tried, instead of waiting around while the Thalmor gripped tighter and tighter.

So instead of building up forces you rather just go in and immediately attack? Yeah I would love for you to be a actual leader in wartime.

Fine. But let them unite independant nations, rather than trying to reconquer them.

Those nations were already a part of the Empire. Its like being against the union in the American civil war because they wouldn't let the southern states create their own country.