37007 réponses à ce sujet

[Elhanan]

I enjoy DA more for the storylines, dialogues, and NPC interactions; less buggy and better QA, too. IMO.

Skyrim has wonderful landscapes and terrific dungeons, and has been quite a blast avoiding storylines in order to explore a little. The mountains are breathtaking, as I stopped sniping for a moment to watch dawn come over the horizon.

What I like about Crafting is that it may be avoided if desired; same for Food, Resting, marriage, etc. These are all very User Friendly systems. But I do wish that a spell or hammer could bust a Lock, as Lockpicking seems to reward more for failure, and is rather tedious.

[Yrkoon]

Veex wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

When some  'hardcore'  DA fans claim Skyrim is "so shallow", I can never understand what they mean.

Perhaps what these people are trying to say is that companions and companion interaction in Skyrim is shallow compared to DA. And while this is true, it's a completely DIFFERENT claim.

I think you answered your own question. Mechanically and in terms of world detail and interactivity Skyrim is the better game by leaps and bounds. However, in terms of narrative depth and character detail I'd personally agree that Dragon Age is the superior game.

If I could smash a driven BioWare style main arc into a Bethasda world I'd be a happy camper.

No, you can't just take a detail like companion  personalities and interaction and just blow it up to encompass a game's entire narrative.  Companions are only PART of the whole.

Anyone can accurately argue that Skyrim's main narrative is  not much different than DA:O's, depth-wise.  What's DA:O's driving story?    1) Stop the blight and kill the Archdemon;  and 2) prevent  a civil war.   What's Skyrims?  1) stop Alduin;  2) prevent a civil war.


The difference is that DA:O prefers to tell you this story via cutscenes and cinematics, while skyrim prefers that you encounter all this stuff on your own.  I don't see how  anyone can actually say that one is more shallow than the other.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 07 décembre 2011 - 03:44 .

[Addai]

Veex wrote...
I think you answered your own question. Mechanically and in terms of world detail and interactivity Skyrim is the better game by leaps and bounds. However, in terms of narrative depth and character detail I'd personally agree that Dragon Age is the superior game.

If I could smash a driven BioWare style main arc into a Bethasda world I'd be a happy camper.

That was Fallout 3, and the "game over" made people rage.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Just tested selling stuff. Skyrim behaves much like Oblivion. Selling 1 item at a time, instead of a batch, will raise the skill faster. I wish they used the gold value instead.

[DragonRageGT]

Suprez30 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

To the poster who said Skyrim is empty: Some said that in Oblivion you stumbled on caves, forts, etc., around every corner, and that the world gradually became empty. So this time they have given it more space in between. I think there is quest content for about 200 hours, but I think it is more close to 300. And that's only the handwritten stuff. There are also computer generated quests and there are an infinite number of those. So, no. Skyrim is anything but empty. If you think you have seen it all after 50 hours then you're looking in the wrong places.

I don't really blame him. Game like Skyrim are a rarity . Most videogame today have very strong narrative A la Michael Bay and after 7 hours you put it on the dusty table and forget about it. Skyrim ain't for everyone. Skyrim does not have that 'instant gratification' that most game have today.

They start 'roaming' and expect some cinematic popping at anytime and end up dissapointed . They won't walk if they aren't  forced and won't listen if it's not in the script .. They want the 'narration' . Narration it's not a bad thing but we're flooded by it and Skyrim is completetly what I wanted.

Skyrin ain't for a few people, you mean? Judging by the sales number, most people wants just what Skyrim has! If a few people cannot enjoy it or thinks DA2 is a better game, well, it is all right. I don't think Bethesda will change the game to please that few and then say "it's the way of the audience". The real audience wants Skyrim!

[DragonRageGT]

Yrkoon wrote...

Hrungr wrote...
But as a hardcore DA fan, it's so shallow... I think if I'd never played DA it might have at least been less glaring. So I got as much out of it as I wanted (and at 180-odd hours made it well worth the money) but there's no real impetuous to revisit it.

Overall: 8/10.

When some  'hardcore'  DA fans claim Skyrim is "so shallow", I can never understand what they mean. There are 5 different types of Butterflies in this game for gods sake. There are 8 different steps to upgrading a weapon. There are dozens of cities, towns and villages to visit. There are more than 150  of wildly diverse dungeons. There are dozens upon dozens of multi-page books you can read... page by page. There are 5 homes you can buy, then furnish. There are 10 races to choose from. Alchemy is at least twice as deep the entire spell-casting system in Dragon Age. And that's just alchemy.... a minor feature in Skyrim.

You can join and lead several different factions in this game and do quests for them that will eat up more than 100 hours of game time by themselves. You can walk up to a shelf in this game and spend 20 minutes exploring it, gathering what's on it, reading the books it contains etc. You can jump in a river and spend hours exploring under water. You can climb mountains, ride horses, leap off cliffs, cook a dinner then eat it.

Picking locks is something you actually have to manually do in this game (as opposed to just taking some skills and then clicking on a lock once to open it, like in DA.  You looking for shallow?  the DA lockpicking system is what shallow is.)

^ all of this  does not fit the standard english definition of shallow... at all. Does it. In fact, it's the opposite of shallow. It's deep. Detailed to mind blowing proportions.

Perhaps what these people are trying to say is that companions and companion interaction in Skyrim is shallow compared to DA. And while this is true, it's a completely DIFFERENT claim.

Yrkoon, you probably forgot some hundreds of other stuff but it's ok. It's a brilliant post. Skyrim has a really bad side though. It ruins our social life if we let it! Addai or Mad Icy River (AFW) mentioned 200-300 hours? My first char had 220 hours and was some 500 hrs minimum from the end, just exploring and sidequesting. New one has some 100 hours and hasn't even started the game. It's been just a warm up! hahaha

Modifié par RageGT, 07 décembre 2011 - 04:12 .

[Lux]

I'm itching to get back to Skyrim and start a new game but I'm waiting for more substantial patches to come along. Waiting also helps my work efficiency. Skyrim was turning me into a working vegetable...

[Hrungr]

Yrkoon wrote...

Hrungr wrote...
But as a hardcore DA fan, it's so shallow... I think if I'd never played DA it might have at least been less glaring. So I got as much out of it as I wanted (and at 180-odd hours made it well worth the money) but there's no real impetuous to revisit it.

Overall: 8/10.

When some  'hardcore'  DA fans claim Skyrim is "so shallow", I can never understand what they mean. There are 5 different types of Butterflies in this game for gods sake....

Perhaps what these people are trying to say is that companions and companion interaction in Skyrim is shallow compared to DA. And while this is true, it's a completely DIFFERENT claim.

To clarify, I refer to the shallowness of the populace (and therefore any real emotional involvement) - pretty much across the board. None of the NPCs made me feel strongly one way or the other. You're limited in how much you can interact with anyone.The "depth" as you point out is in the variety of the world, not the people in it.

And that's why it feels a bit jarring for me to play a game which invested so much effort in crafting this world and so little in bringing it to "life". Again, if I hadn't played DA before, I probably wouldn't have the same expectations.

[DRUNK_CANADIAN]

I haven't played Skyrim in like a week....I ...need....my....fix.

[Giggles_Manically]

I just FINALLY managed to forge Dragon Plate Armor...and needless to say....HOLY CRAP.
All those Iron Daggers, pieces of jewelry, and leather bracers were worth it.

http://cloud.steampo...BC5C01A177B82A/
Also in that pic my PC has Spellbreaker and Dawnbreaker, whily Lydia has the Shield of Ysgramor.

Also I married Lydia and I really like it, there is just something about husband and wife dragon hunters that I found very cool. There may not be a lot of content to it really but overall I am having a blast.

Also...I am lvl 37 as of today and I have not even touched the Main or Civil war quest lines at all. Bethesda you magnificent bastards you prove that there are games worth 60 dollars out there.
Well played.

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 07 décembre 2011 - 04:59 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

About the depth... BW games are driven by narrative and cinematics. Skyrim is driven by character behaviour: Traveling, chatting, eating, sleeping, working, swimming, hunting, fighting are just some of those and are controlled by schedules, events and factions (groups with common behavior like prey, hunter, bandit, citizen of a given town, occupation, etc.). This is also visible when there is a fight. Skyrim's NPCs will either join the fight, do nothing or flee. This depends on their faction and their individual disposition to other NPCs and the PC. A BW NPC would just ignore the fight and stand in the middle of it as if nothing happens. A Skyrim NPC knows what class the PC has and what he or she has achieved and comment or respond to that. A BW NPC knows absolutely nothing of that, unless it is scripted. Quests in Skyrim adapt when for an example a quest giver has died or when a merchant dies that merchant is replaced by a relative or someone else in town. Skyrim's merchants close their shop, eat, wander, sleep and go back to work again. BW's merchants just stand there selling stuff.

So, if you look outside cinematics at the static BW NPCs who can only walk from point A to B or stand still and do their thing without even noticing the PC then I think in that regard the Skyrim NPCs have a lot more depth.

What Skyrim does exceptionally well and what BW cannot do at all is give one the feeling that the world is alive. What BW does exceptionally well is character animation and cinematics. But that is not enough to give the illusion that the world is alive.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 07 décembre 2011 - 05:10 .

[DRUNK_CANADIAN]

FUS RO DAHHH!!!

Modifié par DRUNK_CANADIAN, 07 décembre 2011 - 05:10 .

[slimgrin]

DRUNK_CANADIAN wrote...



FUS RO DAHHH!!!

That scared the crap outta me.

[DragonRageGT]

Trainning Block and Heavy Armor with Giants and Mammoths is the new sh*t! Woot! And I spare them all 'cause I'm a nice Nord Hero!

Modifié par RageGT, 07 décembre 2011 - 05:26 .

[Lux]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I just FINALLY managed to forge Dragon Plate Armor...and needless to say....HOLY CRAP.
All those Iron Daggers, pieces of jewelry, and leather bracers were worth it.

I used to look forward to max smithing for the dragon armor... then I took an ar... er... I actually saw the armor and was disappoint.

[Lux]

RageGT wrote...

Trainning Block and Heavy Armor with Giants and Mammoths is the new sh*t! Woot! And I spare them all 'cause I'm a nice Nord Hero!

Giants don't throw you into orbit anymore? Nice to hear.

[Elhanan]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

About the depth... BW games are driven by narrative and cinematics. Skyrim is driven by character behaviour: Traveling, chatting, eating, sleeping, working, swimming, hunting, fighting are just some of those and are controlled by schedules, events and factions (groups with common behavior like prey, hunter, bandit, citizen of a given town, occupation, etc.). This is also visible when there is a fight. Skyrim's NPCs will either join the fight, do nothing or flee. This depends on their faction and their individual disposition to other NPCs and the PC. A BW NPC would just ignore the fight and stand in the middle of it as if nothing happens. A Skyrim NPC knows what class the PC has and what he or she has achieved and comment or respond to that. A BW NPC knows absolutely nothing of that, unless it is scripted. Quests in Skyrim adapt when for an example a quest giver has died or when a merchant dies that merchant is replaced by a relative or someone else in town. Skyrim's merchants close their shop, eat, wander, sleep and go back to work again. BW's merchants just stand there selling stuff.

So, if you look outside cinematics at the static BW NPCs who can only walk from point A to B or stand still and do their thing without even noticing the PC then I think in that regard the Skyrim NPCs have a lot more depth.

What Skyrim does exceptionally well and what BW cannot do at all is give one the feeling that the world is alive. What BW does exceptionally well is character animation and cinematics. But that is not enough to give the illusion that the world is alive.

Must disagree with the restrictions seen in BW games. While the cinematics are somewhat enjoyable, it is the depth in writing that gives BW the edge for me.

While the mechanics and systems of Skyrim are terrific, the world of Thedas, or worlds of ME have far more depth than I am getting currently. While I am enjoying myself in the role of the Dragonborn, and am delighted to have just escorted Max Von Sydow thru the sewers of Riftin to safety, no character has appealed to me in any way like those of BW games.

While the NPC's of Skyrim may go home at night to place cabbage and other veggies in barrels, they have little to say directly to the characters. Indirectly, they are often hilarious and amusing, but I can only listen about Guides to Decor for so long before wandering away.

As Yrkoon mentioned, these are two different critters, and I enjoy them both for varied reasons.

IMO: DAO > Skyrim > DA2

Modifié par Elhanan, 07 décembre 2011 - 05:58 .

[DragonRageGT]

Merkar wrote...

RageGT wrote...

Trainning Block and Heavy Armor with Giants and Mammoths is the new sh*t! Woot! And I spare them all 'cause I'm a nice Nord Hero!

Giants don't throw you into orbit anymore? Nice to hear.

If you have some decent Armor Rating, like 300+, you can take a few hits then run and heal. Rinse and repeat. If you stand still, his killing blow will send you off into orbit. But if you are somewhat high level, 30+ and with even higher AC, you can take quite a few more blows.  If you don't kill him, that is. I just made sure to bring one alone, either Giant or Mammoth or I would have to kill them all to save my own hide

For Block, every one strike I blocked I gained one level skill. It was too low indeed, in the 30'ish. Still, it's a heck of a training! (uploading the Mammoth Heavy Training vid right now.. heh)

[slimgrin]

Well I got a late start with this game. Just like Bethesda's other titles it's hard to put down. Bleakfalls Barrow is a very impressive dungeon crawl so far.

[Addai]

greengoron89 wrote...
EDIT: Oh, and TES still has the richest, most developed lore of any gaming universe. The DA series comes close, but no cigar.

That's true.  If Bethesda is learning from anyone, it appears to be Obsidian, in that they expanded the companion mechanic and stepped up the storytelling hundredfold.  I mean, let's recall that companions in Oblivion were temporary peeps who died at the drop of a hat and.... the Adoring Fan.  Also, the storytelling is more complex and-  I don't know if I'm imagining this but it seems bleaker.  Factions are also great in both these devs' games.

I've only played FNV, but I was so impressed by that game that I hope these two developers keep inbreeding.  DAO was a great game but I don't think BW has it in them anymore to make a game like that again.

Speaking of factions... the Thieves Guild not only has the best armor, they've got the hottest guys.  Oh mama! 

Modifié par Addai67, 07 décembre 2011 - 06:36 .

[Homebound]

From what I've seen, Skyrim has a very lived-in world. Dragon Age:Origins has a sense of progression.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

I think it's really the approach to how the game was designed. BioWare games are stories, Bethesda games are worlds. Or at least, that's what they strive to achieve. Of course, you have your inbetweens such as the Fallout games, so the approaches aren't mutually exclusive.

In that sense we see a divergence in how each company approaches characterization and quote unquote "depth". With BioWare opting for explicit narrative showcasing whereas Bethesda opts for implicit, narrative ambience.

The former relies on cinematics and a developer guided approach whereas the latter relies on game mechanics and exploration.

Neither is inherently better, but I tend to favour the latter because they are more likely to reward player initiative.

As to whether it's enough to claim whether the game is shallow or not, I don't know. I just see it as different approaches and different focuses.

If nothing else, one area where Skyrim trumps everything BioWare has ever done in depth is the lore and world building. Elder Scrolls lore is deep. In all likelihood, TES lore is the deepest in any current non-licensed video game IP.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 07 décembre 2011 - 07:04 .

[xkg]

Johnsen1972 wrote...

xkg wrote...

hehehe no. Did you close the console after typing disable ? Do not close it, type enable immediately after "disable".
and look around - because she can appear behind you and will walk away (because you have dismissed her)

In case of any troubles use this chain of commands (this is for Lydia only):

prid A2C94
disable
enable
moveto player

Made a video guide to level your companions 
My Lydia is much stronger now!

Nice one
Good job.

[Lux]

RageGT wrote...

Merkar wrote...

RageGT wrote...

Trainning Block and Heavy Armor with Giants and Mammoths is the new sh*t! Woot! And I spare them all 'cause I'm a nice Nord Hero!

Giants don't throw you into orbit anymore? Nice to hear.

If you have some decent Armor Rating, like 300+, you can take a few hits then run and heal. Rinse and repeat. If you stand still, his killing blow will send you off into orbit. But if you are somewhat high level, 30+ and with even higher AC, you can take quite a few more blows.  If you don't kill him, that is. I just made sure to bring one alone, either Giant or Mammoth or I would have to kill them all to save my own hide

For Block, every one strike I blocked I gained one level skill. It was too low indeed, in the 30'ish. Still, it's a heck of a training! (uploading the Mammoth Heavy Training vid right now.. heh)

Ah yes, I still remember the first time I just stood there and waited for teh blow. Keep moving is key indeed!

Entretanto é pena eles só lançarem o toolset em Janeiro. Vai ser uma espera desgraçada...