37007 réponses à ce sujet

[Elhanan]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Ah. Nah. Well, it struck me after I thought about BW games this morning. There is much more handholding in DA/ME than in Skyrim. The problem for me is that there is no freedom in those games. ME2's "different ending" is merley a body count. Suicide feels like losing to me. No matter how crafted the story it just feels like a very complex "you lose" message. That's not fun for me. The promised "shape the world" of DA2 is just not there. The choices are just a bunch of rationalizations leading to the same railroaded story. Skyrim never made that promise, but due to how the game works it changes your experience and how the world reacts to you more than DA2 could ever accomplish. Besides, BW's stories are so much better. DA2 is proof of that. *laughs*

Actually; quite the example. I would choose almost any DA2 interaction over almost any of those in Skyrim.

Thus far, my strongest bonds in Skyrim is an unwritten friendship with my choice of steeds, esp Shadowmere. And this is largely due to my own imagination, as I stop and apply healing magics to the injuries sustained from battles or ill conceived choices in travel; hate to hear a horse scream.

I will choose the hand holding linear storyline over the shallow repeated lines of dialogue almost every time.

OTOH, I also enjoy the freedom in which the provided mechanics of Skyrim has allowed. Because of this, I would say that I have enjoyed Skyrim more than DA2. But it is not because of the story.

[Cutlass Jack]

Elhanan wrote...

Actually; quite the example. I would choose almost any DA2 interaction over almost any of those in Skyrim.

Thus far, my strongest bonds in Skyrim is an unwritten friendship with my choice of steeds, esp Shadowmere. And this is largely due to my own imagination, as I stop and apply healing magics to the injuries sustained from battles or ill conceived choices in travel; hate to hear a horse scream.

I will choose the hand holding linear storyline over the shallow repeated lines of dialogue almost every time.

OTOH, I also enjoy the freedom in which the provided mechanics of Skyrim has allowed. Because of this, I would say that I have enjoyed Skyrim more than DA2. But it is not because of the story.

I'm inclined to agree with you. Most of my strongest interactions in Skyrim happened in my head. As much as I love elder scroll games, I invariably have to go replay a Bioware game after because I'm jonesing for real conversations and relationships. And I just don't mean romantic.

For example, a recent quest in Skyrim had me tracking down a pirate who tried to set me up as the fall guy in a plot. It was clear he had no idea what a horrible mistake he made by picking randomly me to be his scapegoat. After which I tracked him and his gang down to educate him on just that. What killed an otherwise fun storyline for me was utter lack of recognition/conversation from him when I finally confronted him. He was just another body who died and got looted. As typical for TES games, the best you get is a journal entry you may find during the looting process to give some vague closure.

Which should not be confused as me not enjoying Skyrim. That couldn't be less true. The physical process of questing is of course fun as heck and flexible. But I miss the dramatic storytelling moments.

Nothing is sadder or more ironic than being a high speech focused character with no snappy dialogue.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

I think Bethesda needed to tighten up on character interactions & banter. That's pretty much it.

For the open worlds they create, they are actually good storytellers. Not that great, but better than people give them credit for. Mainly because it's so reliant on exploration and player interaction to give plots context whereas other games feed those things to you. Or it's the whole story vs world aspect, idk.

They've done a decent job, taking away a lot of the reason for cinematic storytelling that BioWare does to showcase characters, especially for the minor ones.

The ambient conversations, the schedules, it goes a long way in establishing a character without lots of cinematics and loads of dialog aka expository filler.

Mind you character interactions and cinematic storytelling are not the same thing, although BioWare's done a good job in connecting them over the years (character interaction through cinematics). A character interaction can be something a lot less cinematic, like choosing to help a person in need. Or not. Or walking to (and thereby siding with) a politician. Or his rival.

Then of course dialog, which is what most of us are used to.

It's just the level of interaction with more important characters (such as companions) that are lacking. There's also a lack of mechanics that can help enforce a player's given character, whether that's structuring the dialog to include more types of skill checks, requiring College Mages to actually practice Magic for advancement, etc etc.

It'll be nice to see what the CK offers on that front for modders though. I'll probably try and test out a few ideas of my own.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 11 décembre 2011 - 02:58 .

[Andarthiel_Demigod]

Well I just killed Ulfric:D Good riddance. And I've lmaost completed getting Thane in all holds.

[Eternal Phoenix]

All I know is that Skyrim is filled with hundreds of bugs and whatever I may have enjoyed to raise the game to a mediocre score was soon ruined. Never before have I ever encountered a game with so many bugs and glitches! And people call this better than Dark Souls? Hmph.

[Redneck1st]

Andarthiel_Demigod wrote...

Well I just killed Ulfric:D Good riddance. And I've lmaost completed getting Thane in all holds.

Now if you don't mind my asking how did you manage to kill Ulfric off? I thought that he was unkiallable or is that just until you start the civil war part of the game? Will have to admit that I don't care for him either to be honest with you there. Seems that they just don't like elves of any sort.

[HoonDing]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Actually; quite the example. I would choose almost any DA2 interaction over almost any of those in Skyrim.

Thus far, my strongest bonds in Skyrim is an unwritten friendship with my choice of steeds, esp Shadowmere. And this is largely due to my own imagination, as I stop and apply healing magics to the injuries sustained from battles or ill conceived choices in travel; hate to hear a horse scream.

I will choose the hand holding linear storyline over the shallow repeated lines of dialogue almost every time.

OTOH, I also enjoy the freedom in which the provided mechanics of Skyrim has allowed. Because of this, I would say that I have enjoyed Skyrim more than DA2. But it is not because of the story.

I'm inclined to agree with you. Most of my strongest interactions in Skyrim happened in my head. As much as I love elder scroll games, I invariably have to go replay a Bioware game after because I'm jonesing for real conversations and relationships. And I just don't mean romantic.

For example, a recent quest in Skyrim had me tracking down a pirate who tried to set me up as the fall guy in a plot. It was clear he had no idea what a horrible mistake he made by picking randomly me to be his scapegoat. After which I tracked him and his gang down to educate him on just that. What killed an otherwise fun storyline for me was utter lack of recognition/conversation from him when I finally confronted him. He was just another body who died and got looted. As typical for TES games, the best you get is a journal entry you may find during the looting process to give some vague closure.

That's just the thing, though: those interactions and relationships in BioWare games happen as much in your head as interactions in a Bethesda games. They're all in essence all just meaningless clicking through dialogue trees.

mrcrusty wrote...

It's just the level of interaction with
more important characters (such as companions) that are lacking. There's also a lack of mechanics that can help enforce a player's given character, whether that's structuring the dialog to include more types of skill checks, requiring College Mages to actually practice Magic for advancement, etc etc.

That's just the thing about the guilds, they all enforce a storyline. No matter which guild you join, "something awesome/epic" will happen, you basically save the guild and because of this you are elevated to the top, no matter your skills. This becomes unrealistic if you bother to join all guilds.

In previous games, well at least up to Morrowind, guilds were just about doing jobs for cash (and sometimes
glory), the way it should've been. In such a system, advancement through skills was a necessity.

Modifié par virumor, 11 décembre 2011 - 03:53 .

[CoffeeHolic93]

 So I'm working on another video Akin to my assassin one, however I'm spending more time with the scenes here (removing menus, being more critical with what I actually include, etc.).

Any suggestions for what type of enemies I should include? 

[Pedrak]

Elhanan wrote...
Actually; quite the example. I would choose almost any DA2 interaction over almost any of those in Skyrim.

Thus far, my strongest bonds in Skyrim is an unwritten friendship with my choice of steeds, esp Shadowmere. And this is largely due to my own imagination, as I stop and apply healing magics to the injuries sustained from battles or ill conceived choices in travel; hate to hear a horse scream.

I will choose the hand holding linear storyline over the shallow repeated lines of dialogue almost every time.

OTOH, I also enjoy the freedom in which the provided mechanics of Skyrim has allowed. Because of this, I would say that I have enjoyed Skyrim more than DA2. But it is not because of the story.

Pretty much this. 70 hours into Skyrim and I find characterization almost non-existent (of the hundreds of NPCs you meet there are maybe 5-6 that have some kind of interesting personality, and none that is fully developed - plenty of good ideas, but no character that stands out ), C&C is a joke and writing is tolerable but nothing more. Most quests ( not all - for example, the Pelagius Wing and the Windhelm serial killer were ok) are also rather repetitive - "go to a cave and kill this/fetch that". Yawn.

It's a testament to how excellent the game world is that I'm still enjoying the game so much. Or maybe I just needed a huge and vibrant place to roam in after DA2's small and asphyctic corridors.

I have to say, though, that the dragon slaying is also becoming some sort of routine - it seems I can't even go to the john without some blood dragon popping up and the soundtrack doing the "Dovahkiin! Dovahkiin!" musical number as I sigh and draw my bow.

Modifié par Pedrak, 11 décembre 2011 - 04:45 .

[DragonRageGT]

Mi-Chan wrote...

 So I'm working on another video Akin to my assassin one, however I'm spending more time with the scenes here (removing menus, being more critical with what I actually include, etc.).

Any suggestions for what type of enemies I should include? 

Don't worry too much. Just make it showing you're having fun playing the game!  Make it for yourself, whatever you like. Other people enjoying it is just a bonus. =)  (PS.: I'm doing a decapitation collection video.. Perhaps some 10 or 20 should be enough. Don't want it being too long but can't help about being a bit repetitive. Heads are falling throughout the whole video! hehe)

Now, I'm at a real dilema here! Should I kill Astrid and start a "Destroy the Dark Brotherhood" quest? Or chose one of those 3 victims, possibly the 3 of them like I did on my first playthrough and become a member? I wanted Shadowmere (reminicences of Oblivion) but I'm happy with Frost!

Bah.. I'm playing a Nord hero, not an Assassin... I'll probably save the DB questline for my Stealthy/Archer/Bosmer/Dual Dagger/Thief  character!

Modifié par RageGT, 11 décembre 2011 - 04:33 .

[CoffeeHolic93]

RageGT wrote...

Don't worry too much. Just make it showing you're having fun playing the game!  Make it for yourself, whatever you like. Other people enjoying it is just a bonus. =)

Now, I'm at a real dilema here! Should I kill Astrid and start a "Destroy the Dark Brotherhood" quest? Or chose one of those 3 victims, possibly the 3 of them like I did on my first playthrough and become a member? I wanted Shadowmere (reminicences of Oblivion) but I'm happy with Frost!

Bah.. I'm playing a Nord hero, not an Assassin... I'll probably save the DB questline for my Stealthy/Archer/Bosmer/Dual Dagger/Thief  character!

Give in. Give iiiiiiiin.  All hail the listener RageGT

[DragonRageGT]

Mi-Chan wrote...
Give in. Give iiiiiiiin.  All hail the listener RageGT

Bah... I'm a wuss. Couldn't bring myself to kill her... something in her voice...

[CoffeeHolic93]

RageGT wrote...


Bah... I'm a wuss. Couldn't bring myself to kill her... something in her voice...

Yeah, I want my next character to be a paladin of sorts...But...Astrid...

[Sylvianus]

mrcrusty wrote...

I think Bethesda needed to tighten up on character interactions & banter. That's pretty much it.

For the open worlds they create, they are actually good storytellers. Not that great, but better than people give them credit for. Mainly because it's so reliant on exploration and player interaction to give plots context whereas other games feed those things to you. Or it's the whole story vs world aspect, idk.

They've done a decent job, taking away a lot of the reason for cinematic storytelling that BioWare does to showcase characters, especially for the minor ones.

The ambient conversations, the schedules, it goes a long way in establishing a character without lots of cinematics and loads of dialog aka expository filler.

Mind you character interactions and cinematic storytelling are not the same thing, although BioWare's done a good job in connecting them over the years (character interaction through cinematics). A character interaction can be something a lot less cinematic, like choosing to help a person in need. Or not. Or walking to (and thereby siding with) a politician. Or his rival.

Then of course dialog, which is what most of us are used to.

It's just the level of interaction with more important characters (such as companions) that are lacking. There's also a lack of mechanics that can help enforce a player's given character, whether that's structuring the dialog to include more types of skill checks, requiring College Mages to actually practice Magic for advancement, etc etc.

It'll be nice to see what the CK offers on that front for modders though. I'll probably try and test out a few ideas of my own.

I agree. Skyrim could be even better. Who wants to tell that on bethesda forum for the next game ?

[Cutlass Jack]

Mi-Chan wrote...

RageGT wrote...


Bah... I'm a wuss. Couldn't bring myself to kill her... something in her voice...

Yeah, I want my next character to be a paladin of sorts...But...Astrid...

But as par for the course in this game, she's married.

[HoonDing]

Anyone else think "arrow in the knee" is the new "cake is a lie"?

[Sidney]

Nashiktal wrote...
That's kinda the point of the game. You make the context of YOUR story out of events and quests that happen during the game. Just look a page back to see one of my mini adventures.

No, that is an excuse for having a world that is blind, deaf and dumb. Hey, YOU make up the story. That's fine, I am making up MY part of the story but the rest of the world needs to participate in my story and to do that it should interact with me a lot more than Skyrim does. That's all and it is really hard to do when you make a game a mile wide like Bethesda did and has in the past.

[TobiTobsen]

virumor wrote...

Anyone else think "arrow in the knee" is the new "cake is a lie"?

According to the YouTube comment section, this is true.

[Il Divo]

virumor wrote...


That's just the thing, though: those interactions and relationships in BioWare games happen as much in your head as interactions in a Bethesda games. They're all in essence all just meaningless clicking through dialogue trees.

I wouldn't say it's happening all in your head in the way that Bethesda games do. Because Bioware thrives on dialogue/interaction, in that same scenario that pirate probably would have recognized your character, and you would have had the opportunity to threaten him. In that context, the role-playing is not restricted to your mind, but actually has visible, tangible reactions from the game world.

In large part, that's always been my problem with emergent narrative; it relies too much on player action and not enough on reaction to player motivation.

Edit: But Skyrim is still great, in spite of this.

Modifié par Il Divo, 11 décembre 2011 - 06:29 .

[Chromie]

virumor wrote...

Anyone else think "arrow in the knee" is the new "cake is a lie"?

No no. "Someone stole your sweet roll" is!

[DragonRageGT]

simfamSP wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

All I know is that Skyrim is filled with hundreds of bugs and whatever I may have enjoyed to raise the game to a mediocre score was soon ruined. Never before have I ever encountered a game with so many bugs and glitches! And people call this better than Dark Souls? Hmph.

Since when? Seriously people, I've seen bugs, but this happens to every game I've seen mentioned in the forums. The Witcher, The Witcher 2, Bioware games, DA2, FO3...

They are apparently all riddled with bugs? It's like people pull them out of their arse cracks just to find them. Sure, there are bugs. But not to the point where it's ruined my game. And this goes for all games known for bugs... yes I'm looking at you Gothic 3!

Don't mind this guy. He was prolly having the best time of his life with Skyrim... then  he took an arrow in his knee, took a sword to his chest and someone stole his sweet roll!

[DragonRageGT]

Aw well, I tried, I really tried.

Entering Solitude, I interrupted the execution, Roggvir ran for it and actually made pretty far before he was killed, all Solitude guards were dead but two stupid immortal NPC kept bugging me. When my bounty count reached 13,000 I reloaded... *sighs*

I agree with Roggvir. It was a fair combat, Ulfric didn't murder anyone. He beated that wuss of a corrupt high king in a far duel! Free Skyrim!!!

Modifié par RageGT, 11 décembre 2011 - 07:57 .

[Redneck1st]

GreenGoron- I couldn't agree with you more in regards to Astrid when I met her that is the one for which I was going to marry until I found out that she was already married. Now the other three for which I'm considering is either Aela the huntress, Njada Stonearm, or Mjoll the lioness. Or I might continue to run through this game solo.<G>

Elton John is dead- Let me guess someone stole your sweet roll? Come now Skyrim is filled with hundreds of bugs? I'd like to know who taught you how to count. Sure it's got bugs and glitches what game or program don't? After all I've been working with computers since the 8086s so I've seen my share of buggy programs and games both. But back to your 100's of bugs for which Skyrim has. I've only encountered maybe a dozen and none of them were game breakers for me. Sure a few Items that would come out of inventory once the quest was completed like for the instruments in the bards instruments quests, and the briair heart in the repairing the phial quest or the fact that I couldn't give Devin w of the Larceny items for which I had picked up. I just sold them to the guild and moved on. It wasn't like it broke the game for me. But wouldn't mind seeing them fixed either by the folks at Bethesda or one of the modders doing an un-official patch.

I'd also like to see the following fixed.

1. only being able to wear one ring in the game when you've got two hands.
2. equipped items that give a stamina boost also giving you the carry weight boost as well.
3 Being able to make our own arrows in the game.

Other than what I've mentioned I've had no real problems with the game cepr to the fact of it occassionally crashing to desk top from time to time. Which I would love it if they could fix it.

Some times I think that once like you just moan, groan and cry just to have something to moan, groan and cry about.