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[Shepard the Leper]

Elhanan wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I've looked at several magic mods and I'm suspicious of them. So far I'm doing okay so don't feel a need for them anyway. I got Midas Magic for more spells but as it is I don't use half the spells in my favorites list, though there are a couple useful ones like Cure Disease which I thought out to be in the restoration school anyway.

Now I hear Colette's whining voice in my mind.. "restoration is a perfectly valid school of magic!"

Personally, I often take some perks in Restoration as it offers faster Magika regeneration, Stamina is healed along with Health, and healing spells are improved, as well as any spell vs Undead. Great stuff for non-casters, too.

I consider Restoration utterly and completely useless - a waste of perks. There are enough potions around (or you can brew them yourself) that boost whatever you like. When you're low on health, stamina or magicka, drinking a potion will instantly replenish - restoration requires switching to the appropriate spell and cast them (for a while). Time you could also spend on more interesting and more exciting maneuvers.

The problem with almost all the perks of the magic schools is that they are redundant for those who use alchemy effectively. You can easily create (enchanted) gear (without the need to invest in Enchanting btw) and create "free casting gear" (100% spell cost reduction) which makes all the Novice, Apprentice, ... , Master perks pointless. Alchemy can also be used to increase the effectiveness of your spells which makes most other magic perks redundant as well (why bother investing in a + duration perk when you can make potions that are far more powerful and last much longer?) 

The Restoration school is only a viable option for those who refuse to use potions and/or Alchemy - which is what I'm about to do on my next playthrough

[Shepard the Leper]

RageGT wrote...

Now, I don't need Novice Spells to level, really. I'm looking forward for Expert and Master level spells and I will make them 2/2 for the three elemental types in their power. (they are all 1/2 atm because I don't have Destruction skill level to upgrade them but it is close now). I'm pretty confident they will work well at higher levels as well. Specially after I get the finishing. Always on Master difficulty. Never played any other difficulty, no matter if a few reloads are imposed on me until I find the right tactics.

Don't bother with Master level spells - they are useless. The main issue is the long (5 or more seconds) time to cast them. Most of the time you cannot complete the casting animation because you're attacked which cancels the spell (= very annoying).

All Master spells are dual cast but they don't benefit from the dual casting perk. This makes all master Illusion spells less power than Expert (or lower level) Illusion spells which are dualcast. It makes Master destruction spells less effective because they don't use the Impact perk. Trying to cast Dragon Skin in melee is impossible; trying to Mass Paralyze enemies is equally bad - it's a lot easier to use the Expert Paralyze spell a couple of times. The only advantage with Conjuration is that you can have permanent buddies which is rather redundant; and so on. I was very dissapointed with all master level spells; they might look nice on paper, but in-game they are really bad.

[Shepard the Leper]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Edited 2: The issue is that the skill levels of the one which used the boosts more effectively are higher. That's the problem.

No, the "problem" is that the higher your skills are, the faster they cause a level-up. Say your character is level 25 and skill X is at 80 and skill Y is 20. Raising skill X to 90 (a 10 point increase) will get you to level 26 whilst skill Y can be increased to 50 (a 30 point increase) to advance to level 26.

To create "good" characters you should select 5-7 skills and try to level them up at roughly the same pace. Focusing on one or two skills is a bad idea and so is leveling up too many skills - both ways will result in a rather broken and weak character.

When you try to create a character who uses magic, but fights in armor and uses swords or bows too; or likes to sneak around and pickpocket or whatever, you should not use a specialist's stone but the Lover Stone instead. Personally, I only use the Warrior, Mage and Thief stone when I want to boost leveling one specific skill. So when I want to increase Smithing a couple levels, I activate the Warrior stone, sleep, and go crafting. When I've reached the desired level (or when running out of crafting material) I activate a new stone before going questing again. 

[AngryFrozenWater]

I found proof for my assumption that boosts to skills have a bad side effect. I've edited my post on the previous page.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 05 janvier 2012 - 10:38 .

[DragonRageGT]

Shepard the Leper wrote...
I consider Restoration utterly and completely useless - a waste of perks. There are enough potions around (or you can brew them yourself) that boost whatever you like. When you're low on health, stamina or magicka, drinking a potion will instantly replenish - restoration requires switching to the appropriate spell and cast them (for a while). Time you could also spend on more interesting and more exciting maneuvers.

...

Are you talking about Master Difficulty? Because I find them very useful. When your companion is on his/her knee, double cast some Healing Hands and they will be back in the fight. If you have more power and more healing, then they will keep on the fight and win it. Even against Giants and Mammoths.

The problem with Restoration is the training of the skill, IMO. Respite won't train it if we use healing spells to restore Stamina. It only works when restoring Health, as far as I've noticed. Also, I didn't see the skill raising when "healing" undeads. So only when restoring our own or our companion's health.  Worse still, dual casting without the "Dual power" perk increases the skill faster than with the perk. I just found this cave which is a Draugr ruin and with some trap plataforms on the flood which lauches flames up, so I'm training it. =)

Necromage perk affects all magic schools so Destruction and all the others will be more effective against Undead and that will be a nice boost because Undead is in no short supply in the world.

Alchemy is awesome indeed but specially because it will stack with all the power from the perks. Fortify Destruction pots with some high alchemy level will make Apprentice and Adept spells much more powerful and it is very cool for a pure Mage to have max Restoration. Avoiding Death when it is unavoidable seems pretty cool. Refilling Magicka when the Ward is hit by spells too. Toughest enemies I've faced are Archmages with Ward and Healing. They get back to full health in a matter of seconds.

Of course a Two Hander or Archer/Assassin can finish them off in one hit but hey, I'm talking about pure Mages and they are so fun to play because of all the possibilities and great variety in the arsenal, compared to the automatic routine of power strike/sneak shooting/backstabing.

[HoonDing]

Equilibrium in one hand and Healing in another is the way to level restoration.

[Yrkoon]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
while at the same time you have less perk points to invest. After all, both numbers came from level 40.

Wait... what?  Are you saying that one of your level 40 characters had something other than 40 perks?

Modifié par Yrkoon, 05 janvier 2012 - 11:00 .

[Mystic dream]

http://skyrimnexus.c...ile.php?id=3251 Just thought I'd drop this here. Have not seen it posted as far as I've checked (albeit I really didn't check more than 5 pages) 

Anyhow, it's amazing what the TES modding community can do when they really get into it.

Modifié par Mystic dream, 05 janvier 2012 - 11:02 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Yrkoon wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
while at the same time you have less perk points to invest. After all, both numbers came from level 40.

Wait... what?  Are you saying that one of your level 40 characters had something other than 40 perks?

No. The skill levels are higher while at the same time having the same number of perk points to invest. How hard is it to understand that without the boost at level 40 I could invest in perks more effectively? That is what I am saying.

Let me give you an example: In the build without the boost I sometimes (although not often) had a perk point left which I saved because the skill level was not high enough yet. In the other build I never came across those situations. As a matter of fact it became a problem at higher levels. I abandoned that character, because of that.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 05 janvier 2012 - 11:17 .

[Redneck1st]

Addal57 & renjility- Now you both use spells but neither one of you mention the fact of using your shouts as well. You see the shouts have saved me several times. For example the Ice Form shout will freeze enemies including the Duagr deathlords which in effect they can't do nothing but take cold damage this gives you time to take down the lesser enemies if there are any or to heal and regroup as need be. Also fire is great against undead as well whether it be the Firebreath shout or weapons that deal fire damage or even spells.

Also with the Ice form shout depending on how close the enemies are to one another it can freeze several at one time and they will all be taking damage while you heal yourself by drinking potions or using healing spells.

You've got the shouts so use them to your benefit. I play on master level and I'm always using the Ice form especially against mages and necromancers. A little hard to cast spells while your an Ice sculpture.<G>

[Yrkoon]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
while at the same time you have less perk points to invest. After all, both numbers came from level 40.

Wait... what? Are you saying that one of your level 40 characters had something other than 40 perks?

No. The skill levels are higher while at the same time having the same number of perk points to invest. How hard is it to understand that without the boost at level 40 I could invest in perks more effectively? That is what I am saying.

Let me give you an example: In the build without the boost I sometimes (although not often) had a perk point left which I saved because the skill level was not high enough yet. In the other build I never came across those situations. As a matter of fact it became a problem at higher levels. I abandoned that character, because of that.

Aah Gotcha. Still, I'm not sure these "experiments" are doing anything more than reaching a conclusion by accident. Because the leveling system in Skyrim is unusually complex. Are we taking every factor into account? For example, some skills, once they're raised to a certain point, have a bigger impact on your level bar when you increase them, which means you'll need less of them to level. And this will be true regardless of whether you're under the effects of a Stone.  There's also the matter of  Resting bonusses.  To have a perfectly controlled test, neither of your characters should ever rest.

The best way to do one of these "tests" is to take 2 characters, Take them both to level 40 by  raising the exact same skills, in the exact order. But have one character use the Warrior stone (or whatever) at level 1. Then see, at level 40, if they both have exactly the same levels in all their skills.

Because  it just doesn't make sense.  There's a cap in this game, you know.  When ALL your skills reach 100, you're there.  And as far as I know, that's level 81.  I've never heard of anyone  getting to 100 in all their skills and NOT be exactly at level 81.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 05 janvier 2012 - 11:32 .

[DragonRageGT]

Yep, Ice Form for a Mage is a life saver! =)

Mad Ice, what do you mean, "invest in perks more effectively"? When a pure Mage has need of Perk points, (liike when you leveled 3-4 different schools at the same time but has not perks to spend on every ability you want for them), go gain some perks from Smithing or equip a shield and sword and go raise block/1-hand with some skeevers! =P

I still don't see the problem of using skill Stones, I'm with Mage Stone activated from start and I still have a hard time raising Destruction.

And since I'm going to Labyrintian, I'll get Equilibrium soon. But the flames plataforms have the same effect while letting me heal with a dual healing so it heals faster. =)

Modifié par RageGT, 05 janvier 2012 - 11:27 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Yrkoon wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
while at the same time you have less perk points to invest. After all, both numbers came from level 40.

Wait... what? Are you saying that one of your level 40 characters had something other than 40 perks?

No. The skill levels are higher while at the same time having the same number of perk points to invest. How hard is it to understand that without the boost at level 40 I could invest in perks more effectively? That is what I am saying.

Let me give you an example: In the build without the boost I sometimes (although not often) had a perk point left which I saved because the skill level was not high enough yet. In the other build I never came across those situations. As a matter of fact it became a problem at higher levels. I abandoned that character, because of that.

Aah Gotcha. Still, I'm not sure these "experiments" are doing anything more than reaching a conclusion by accident. Because the leveling system in Skyrim is unusually complex. Are we taking every factor into account? For example, some skills, once they're raised to a certain point, have a bigger impact on your level bar when you increase them, which means you'll need less of them to level. And this will be true regardless of whether you're under the effects of a Stone.  There's also the matter of  Resting bonusses.  To have a perfectly controlled test, neither of your characters should ever rest.

The best way to do one of these "tests" is to take 2 characters, Take them both to level 40 raising the exact same skills, in the exact order. But have one character use the Warrior stone (or whatever) at level 1. Then see, at level 40, if they both have exactly the same levels in all their skills.

I am not out here to win a discussion. I observe what is happening to those characters using the same skills. Based on that and the problems the boosts gave me, I will not use those again. It is obvious that you are free to have your own interpretation.

It's good that you didn't agree with me, though. That made me check my assumption. The numbers are significant enough for me to draw my own conclusions.

[Redneck1st]

Mystic dream wrote...

http://skyrimnexus.c...ile.php?id=3251 Just thought I'd drop this here. Have not seen it posted as far as I've checked (albeit I really didn't check more than 5 pages) 

Anyhow, it's amazing what the TES modding community can do when they really get into it.

Well now will have to admit that I hadn't seen that there to be honest with you. The Thu' u mic does sound and look pretty cool. One for which I might in fact be downloading and adding real soon. Also the beautiful skyrim mod looks good as well.

Thanks for sharing it with the rest of us.

[Yrkoon]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I am not out here to win a discussion. I observe what is happening to those characters using the same skills. Based on that and the problems the boosts gave me, I will not use those again. It is obvious that you are free to have your own interpretation.

It's good that you didn't agree with me, though. That made me check my assumption. The numbers are significant enough for me to draw my own conclusions.

I'm not out to "win" anything either,  I'm engaging in this discussion because I  want to know.  I want to know how the system works.  I want to know if something I'm doing in this game is pointless, redundant or otherwise hindering my goals.

It would also be nice to know if we're unwittingly  discussing  a bug.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 05 janvier 2012 - 11:46 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

RageGT wrote...

Yep, Ice Form for a Mage is a life saver! =)

Mad Ice, what do you mean, "invest in perks more effectively"? When a pure Mage has need of Perk points, (liike when you leveled 3-4 different schools at the same time but has not perks to spend on every ability you want for them), go gain some perks from Smithing or equip a shield and sword and go raise block/1-hand with some skeevers! =P

I still don't see the problem of using skill Stones, I'm with Mage Stone activated from start and I still have a hard time raising Destruction.

And since I'm going to Labyrintian, I'll get Equilibrium soon. But the flames plataforms have the same effect while letting me heal with a dual healing so it heals faster. =)

Why should I use another skill to gain perk points when the solution is simple: Not use any of those stones.

[Redneck1st]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

RageGT wrote...

Yep, Ice Form for a Mage is a life saver! =)

Mad Ice, what do you mean, "invest in perks more effectively"? When a pure Mage has need of Perk points, (liike when you leveled 3-4 different schools at the same time but has not perks to spend on every ability you want for them), go gain some perks from Smithing or equip a shield and sword and go raise block/1-hand with some skeevers! =P

I still don't see the problem of using skill Stones, I'm with Mage Stone activated from start and I still have a hard time raising Destruction.

And since I'm going to Labyrintian, I'll get Equilibrium soon. But the flames plataforms have the same effect while letting me heal with a dual healing so it heals faster. =)

Why should I use another skill to gain perk points when the solution is simple: Not use any of those stones.

Now I'd disagree with you about not using any of the stones you see I love using the Steed Stone as it gives me an extra 100 carry weight which comes in handing for all the loot we pick up. After all the little 5pts we get each time we take stamina just don't cut it. 

[Yrkoon]

He's talking about the stones that make your skills level faster (mage, thief, warrior, lover)

[DragonRageGT]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Why should I use another skill to gain perk points when the solution is simple: Not use any of those stones.

Because you want all those high skill level required Perks! In all your major skills! Don't you? =) And I'd say that particularly pure mages will need them. Unless going the whole game without leveling past level 5, e.g., so all those nice Novice spells can be effective forever. hehe

[Haplose]

The Novice spells still won't be effective against all foes. Enemies - other then dragons - often have minimum levels. At level 3 I was quite unable to beat Dwemer Spheres or Falmers for example. Dwemer Spiders were doable, but that required a lot of running around.

[AngryFrozenWater]

RageGT wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Why should I use another skill to gain perk points when the solution is simple: Not use any of those stones.

Because you want all those high skill level required Perks! In all your major skills! Don't you? =) And I'd say that particularly pure mages will need them. Unless going the whole game without leveling past level 5, e.g., so all those nice Novice spells can be effective forever. hehe

Why do you assume that I don't understand how things work when I point out that there is a problem in the game mechanics?

I had a hunch and checked that. It turned out to be true. I posted about that and that's all there is to it.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 05 janvier 2012 - 12:24 .

[Redneck1st]

Yrkoon wrote...

He's talking about the stones that make your skills level faster (mage, thief, warrior, lover)

So what he's saying that we shouldn't take them because they raise the characters perks to quickly? 

[AngryFrozenWater]

Redneck1st wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

He's talking about the stones that make your skills level faster (mage, thief, warrior, lover)

So what he's saying that we shouldn't take them because they raise the characters perks to quickly? 

No. I wish that was true. The boosted skill levels raise faster than you can invest perks in them. I cannot put it more simple than that.

[Yrkoon]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
 The boosted skill levels raise faster than you can invest perks in them. I cannot put it more simple than that.

No, they don't.  Perks are organized into trees that you have to climb, one point at a time.      It has nothing to do with the Stones.  if anything, using the stones just makes the climbing quicker, since they help you achieve   2 of the 3 requirements for any given perk  (All perks on a tree have 3 requirements:  1) Skill level,  2) an investment in  the perk below it if there is one and 3) a level up perk point to spend.)

The stones have 2 benefits:  1)they make Requirement #1 faster to achieve. and 2) they make requirement #3 faster to achieve.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 05 janvier 2012 - 01:02 .

[Redneck1st]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Redneck1st wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

He's talking about the stones that make your skills level faster (mage, thief, warrior, lover)

So what he's saying that we shouldn't take them because they raise the characters perks to quickly? 

No. I wish that was true. The boosted skill levels raise faster than you can invest perks in them. I cannot put it more simple than that.

As for me that really don't matter due to the fact that I don't take all the perk choices on some of the perk trees any way.  Like with the 1handed which I use allot I don't take the ones for the axe or maces due to the fact that I don't use either of these two weapons  so why throw the perks away on something for which I know I won't use.

Many like myself are probably the same way in regards to this here. The above was just one example there are others for which I don't take all the perk choices in like lock picking there is about 3 or 4 there that I'm not interested in. So I use them in other areas for which I want to have perks.

@Shepard the lepar- Now as for your argument in regards to the Restoration school of magic I will have to disagree with you to an extent. True you can make more powerful potions than what you can get from some of the spells. But you've got to remember that each potion weighs 0.5 So the weight of them potions can really add up. Where as with a spell it weighs nothing.<G>

Modifié par Redneck1st, 05 janvier 2012 - 12:45 .