37007 réponses à ce sujet

[Elhanan]

Yrkoon wrote...

There is one downside to a game that  decides to be  completely dependent on story/narrative at the expense of almost everything else:  You don't need  to play it.  You can simply watch it on youtube.

I recently discovered that with Bioware's last  DLC  (mark of the Assassin).  I didn't want to  buy it because.... because I was just sick of  DA2's crappy  game play  mechanics.  But, like you say,  Bioware does tell good stories.  Solution:  I went on youtube and was pleasantly surprized  to see that people were posting their ENTIRE  playthroughs of the DLC for us to watch.  So I watched the DLC.  The whole thing.    Good enough.  It was like watching a halfway decent movie.

But therein lies the problem.  Isn't it supposed to be a GAME?

I have seen or avoided hundreds of hours of Youtube vids concerning games, including many of Skyrim. Both are still games, but even such clips would seem to indicate that those from Bioware contain a bettter story.

Modifié par Elhanan, 06 janvier 2012 - 03:20 .

[TEWR]

Addai67 wrote...

I was once an adventurer like you, then I took an axe to the head.



Sven looks appropriately befuddled.

I had that happen to me once. I was really startled by it happening.

Also, what kind of helmet is that?

[Addai]

I was hoping to loot the Loincloth of Fortify Destruction.

Too bad.

[Yrkoon]

Elhanan wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

There is one downside to a game that decides to be completely dependent on story/narrative at the expense of almost everything else: You don't need to play it. You can simply watch it on youtube.

I recently discovered that with Bioware's last DLC (mark of the Assassin). I didn't want to buy it because.... because I was just sick of DA2's crappy game play mechanics. But, like you say, Bioware does tell good stories. Solution: I went on youtube and was pleasantly surprized to see that people were posting their ENTIRE playthroughs of the DLC for us to watch. So I watched the DLC. The whole thing. Good enough. It was like watching a halfway decent movie.

But therein lies the problem. Isn't it supposed to be a GAME?

I have seen or avoided hundreds of hours of Youtube vids concerning games, including many of Skyrim. Both are still games, but even such clips would seem to indicate that those from Bioware contain a bettter story.

Of course they contain a better story. But when that's ALL they've got going for them, it's bad design. Games live and die by their gameplay, and RPGs specifically, need some decent player agency to be good. If a developer ignores all that and just forces the player to walk into one cutscene after another, almost every 2 minutes, you're no longer playing. You're watching. And if I want to Watch a good story, I'll rent a movie.  They do stories better.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 06 janvier 2012 - 03:34 .

[Addai]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I was once an adventurer like you, then I took an axe to the head.

*snip*

Sven looks appropriately befuddled.

I had that happen to me once. I was really startled by it happening.

Also, what kind of helmet is that?

It's a dragon mask combined with the archmage robes which has a built-in hood.  There's a bug where if you try to put on two pieces of headgear, your head disappears.

Modifié par Addai67, 06 janvier 2012 - 03:33 .

[Addai]

Elhanan wrote...

I have seen or avoided hundreds of hours of Youtube vids concerning games, including many of Skyrim. Both are still games, but even such clips would seem to indicate that those from Bioware contain a bettter story.

No, they really don't.  People have blinders on if they think Bioware's storytelling is any better than Bethesda's- IMO.  The average dungeon in Skyrim tells a better story than the DA2 DLC.

Honestly I think people have just repeated that mantra so much ("Bioware is so good at story") that it's just a truism.

Modifié par Addai67, 06 janvier 2012 - 03:32 .

[DragonRageGT]

Elhanan wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

There is one downside to a game that  decides to be  completely dependent on story/narrative at the expense of almost everything else:  You don't need  to play it.  You can simply watch it on youtube.

I recently discovered that with Bioware's last  DLC  (mark of the Assassin).  I didn't want to  buy it because.... because I was just sick of  DA2's crappy  game play  mechanics.  But, like you say,  Bioware does tell good stories.  Solution:  I went on youtube and was pleasantly surprized  to see that people were posting their ENTIRE  playthroughs of the DLC for us to watch.  So I watched the DLC.  The whole thing.    Good enough.  It was like watching a halfway decent movie.

But therein lies the problem.  Isn't it supposed to be a GAME?

I have seen or avoided hundreds of hours of Youtube vids concerning games, including many of Skyrim. Both are still games, but even such clips would seem to indicate that those from Bioware contain a bettter story.

True. But they also indicate that DA2 is a very poor game compared to great awesome games like Origins, TW2 and Skyrim.

[Elhanan]

Addai67 wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

I have seen or avoided hundreds of hours of Youtube vids concerning games, including many of Skyrim. Both are still games, but even such clips would seem to indicate that those from Bioware contain a bettter story.

No, they really don't.  People have blinders on if they think Bioware's storytelling is any better than Bethesda's- IMO.  The average dungeon in Skyrim tells a better story than the DA2 DLC.

Honestly I think people have just repeated that mantra so much ("Bioware is so good at story") that it's just a truism.

It is only an opinion, but one that appears to be an informed one.

Ulric is touted as a strong character, but has very few lines, and many are repeated constantly. That entire conversation in the throne room of Windhelm gets old fast. And the rousing speeches given by Ulric or General Tullias pale next to Jarl Balgruff the Greater, Flemeth, or even Queen Anora; let alone Alistair.

But I am biased; dislike Col Tigh intently, and that is who I visualize when hearing Tullias *not to be confused with the actual VO actor*

Then there is simply the entire lack of dialogue from key characters.  Get past the first few lines, and then reruns; a reason I started killing irriatating NPC's. Sure; Skyrim allows us the mechanics to kill some of them, but the motivation should come from the story; not from annoyance or a lack of banter.

Then there are many of those vid clips. Those from Skyrim are seemingly from gameplay; not dialogue. But those from Bioware are often moments of interpersonal conversations with companions, events, etc.

I believe this may be a majority opinion for a good reason.

[Elhanan]

Yrkoon wrote...

Of course they contain a better story. But when that's ALL they've got going for them, it's bad design. Games live and die by their gameplay, and RPGs specifically, need some decent player agency to be good. If a developer ignores all that and just forces the player to walk into one cutscene after another, almost every 2 minutes, you're no longer playing. You're watching. And if I want to Watch a good story, I'll rent a movie.  They do stories better.

I might agree if I had not actually played these games, but having done so gives me a differing view.

While I enjoy the freedom given by Skyrim ganeplay, I miss companion interactions and banter, not to mention less intrusive AI for them including those of DA2.

And while I prefer Skyrim mechanics to those of DA2, I prefer some DA2 gameplay designs (eg; offensive spells, installation, some battle animations, spiders, etc)

Both could use DAO deathblow animations, IMO; miss taking screenies of those.

I agree that DA2 can improve, and hopefully will be seen in DA3. But so can the less than flawless gem heralded as GOTY.

[Elhanan]

RageGT wrote...

True. But they also indicate that DA2 is a very poor game compared to great awesome games like Origins, TW2 and Skyrim.

Cannot compare TW series as I will not play them; no desire for more profanity laced prose on my system. ME2 was bad enough; reason I cancelled ME3 preorder to get Skyrim in the first place. But for me, DA2 as a teller of tales is far and above that of Skyrim.

Yep; Skyrim is a better overall game, IMO. But the storytelling of DA2 and DAO is superior to that of TEV, and it is sorely missed.

[Addai]

Elhanan wrote...

Then there are many of those vid clips. Those from Skyrim are seemingly from gameplay; not dialogue. But those from Bioware are often moments of interpersonal conversations with companions, events, etc.

I believe this may be a majority opinion for a good reason.

That's because Bioware games consist of cutscene after cutscene.  Origins did better in the dialogue department, but Mass Effect is stripped down to bare bones and it appears that is the direction they want to head in.  Believe me, I tried very hard to tease things out of DA2 that were interesting enough to put on video.  There isn't much.  And this is for a game that hyped itself as cinematic.

In order to video a story from Skyrim, I'd have to do a voiceover to describe a note you find, an object you find later in the same location, and so on.  It's more subtle and contextual, less cinematic, but it is still storytelling and for me a much more intriguing kind than sitting through yet another cutscene.

The sense of repetitiveness in Skyrim comes from the sheer volume of time you spend there not constrained by linear corridors, and by the amount of NPC activity they have to put in to fill the world.  I spent my first playthrough living in Windhelm and thought I had heard all the NPC chatter, but I am still finding new people and overhearing different conversations I'd never heard before.

Edit to ask: Which would you prefer, an NPC who often repeats the same line to you or an NPC that stares at you dully and just stands there like in Kirkwall?

Modifié par Addai67, 06 janvier 2012 - 05:17 .

[TEWR]

Addai67 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I was once an adventurer like you, then I took an axe to the head.

*snip*

Sven looks appropriately befuddled.

I had that happen to me once. I was really startled by it happening.

Also, what kind of helmet is that?

It's a dragon mask combined with the archmage robes which has a built-in hood.  There's a bug where if you try to put on two pieces of headgear, your head disappears.

No no I meant on Sven. It's very.... horny.

I had the same bug happen when I put on the archmage robes and I think.... Morokei.

[Addai]

Oh, heh. That's the Helm of Yngol.  It's got frost resistance, but it also suits Sven's dorkiness. 

Modifié par Addai67, 06 janvier 2012 - 06:08 .

[DragonRageGT]

There are some very very cool stories in Skyrim. Like Addai said, some Dungeons have such a story behind them. And when it works, stopping and listening to NPC talking to each other reveals so much. They have rich and intense dialogue, when it gets to work right.

Problem is that it doesn't always work. A running kid shouting some childish nonsense can overlap it. A Guard doing their remarks about our character while we're in the middle of a crowd paying attention to what's being said can overlap it. A Dragon raging from the sky above can overlap it. Many other Radiant showing-off can overlap it. And they never get to live that situation again once it is done. But I'd say it's just a matter of some fine tuning in the AI to not interrupt important moments.

Modifié par RageGT, 06 janvier 2012 - 06:17 .

[Elhanan]

Addai67 wrote...

That's because Bioware games consist of cutscene after cutscene.  Origins did better in the dialogue department, but Mass Effect is stripped down to bare bones and it appears that is the direction they want to head in.  Believe me, I tried very hard to tease things out of DA2 that were interesting enough to put on video.  There isn't much.  And this is for a game that hyped itself as cinematic.

In order to video a story from Skyrim, I'd have to do a voiceover to describe a note you find, an object you find later in the same location, and so on.  It's more subtle and contextual, less cinematic, but it is still storytelling and for me a much more intriguing kind than sitting through yet another cutscene.

The sense of repetitiveness in Skyrim comes from the sheer volume of time you spend there not constrained by linear corridors, and by the amount of NPC activity they have to put in to fill the world.  I spent my first playthrough living in Windhelm and thought I had heard all the NPC chatter, but I am still finding new people and overhearing different conversations I'd never heard before.

Edit to ask: Which would you prefer, an NPC who often repeats the same line to you or an NPC that stares at you dully and just stands there like in Kirkwall?

ME2 did have cutscenes that were far too long, and offered less Auto-Saves than I desired. But I have not encountered that in any other Bioware game yet.

Some of the DA2 vids I have seen involved the more humerous Companion banter encountered, and these are triggered events; not cut-scenes.

Skyrim has plenty of linear play, too. After having to join the College of Magic to gain access to Saarthal just yesterday is indicative that the sandbox also has tunnels.

And I would rather have silence from the inactive NPC's rather than the same repeated lines. I expect vendors to hawk and sell their wares, but to have the same snooty dismissive tones from certain merchants on every visit towards the Dragonborn, local Thane, Harbringer, etc is abrasive. It seemingly belittles any fame gathered along the way.

And DA has a better GUI, too.

[Elhanan]

RageGT wrote...

There are some very very cool stories in Skyrim. Like Addai said, some Dungeons have such a story behind them. And when it works, stopping and listening to NPC talking to each other reveals so much. They have rich and intense dialogue, when it gets to work right.

Problem is that it doesn't always work. A running kid shouting some childish nonsense can overlap it. A Guard doing their remarks about our character while we're in the middle of a crowd paying attention to what's being said can overlap it. A Dragon raging from the sky above can overlap it. Many other Radiant showing-off can overlap it. And they never get to live that situation again once it is done. But I'd say it's just a matter of some fine tuning in the AI to not interrupt important moments.

I would not say rich, but I agree that Skyrim does have some cool dialogue occasionally. Shahvee is a great example, as is the College librarian. Simply wish it was more common, and offered more phrases.

FWIW - thought I saw a Skyrim mod available on the Nexus that stopped such conversational overlap. I have yet to add any mods thus far, but for those that are interested in them, this may be a welcome fix.

This may be it; may be others, too:

http://www.skyrimnex...file.php?id=746

Modifié par Elhanan, 06 janvier 2012 - 07:01 .

[DragonRageGT]

I can't believe I haven't cleared the Sighless Pit and Alftand with previous characters. Or perhaps I just don't remember, but I guess that everytime I went North with those chars, non-mages and all, I was already loaded with loot and forgot to go back there to explore later. The game is collosal. I always start in different areas and different paths.

---

I actually did Alftand with one previous character. Just couldn't remember it. But the blockade that will be on one of its areas until we trigger it by the MQ reminded me. =)

Modifié par RageGT, 06 janvier 2012 - 12:53 .

[HoonDing]

RageGT wrote...

PS: correcting the numbers:

Fortify Restoration  +12,628%
Mana 12,000
Life 4,000
Destruction Less 2,800% to cast
Magicka Regen 19,000% faster
Fortify Enchanting 396,626% - That breaks the game literally!

[Yrkoon]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
No matter how hard you work in Tamriel you pretty much are a glorified handy man out to do things for lazy people to inept to walk down the street or use a mail box or pick some flowers.

Indeed.  like  Assassinating the Emperor,  ending a civil war (can't do that in DA2!), Killing  dragons, Dealing with Daedric Gods, recovering world-shaping ancient documents, traveling to the afterlife  and saving it from an evil menace...

Epic Skyrim Handy man  is Epic.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 06 janvier 2012 - 10:54 .

[Redneck1st]

Addai67 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I was once an adventurer like you, then I took an axe to the head.

*snip*

Sven looks appropriately befuddled.

I had that happen to me once. I was really startled by it happening.

Also, what kind of helmet is that?

It's a dragon mask combined with the archmage robes which has a built-in hood.  There's a bug where if you try to put on two pieces of headgear, your head disappears.

So then that answers why you look like the headless horseman under the robes. Sorry couldn't resist bringing that up to you.

[Redneck1st]

RageGT wrote...


I can't believe I haven't cleared the Sighless Pit and Alftand with previous characters. Or perhaps I just don't remember, but I guess that everytime I went North with those chars, non-mages and all, I was already loaded with loot and forgot to go back there to explore later. The game is collosal. I always start in different areas and different paths.

---

I actually did Alftand with one previous character. Just couldn't remember it. But the blockade that will be on one of its areas until we trigger it by the MQ reminded me. =)

That is why I like games like Oblivion and Skyrim there is so much to do and explore that on one or two playthroughs its hard to explore and cover everything that there is to cover. Which makes the next play through a little more interesting because you got places that you've yet to explore.

[Redneck1st]

virumor wrote...

RageGT wrote...

PS: correcting the numbers:

Fortify Restoration  +12,628%
Mana 12,000
Life 4,000
Destruction Less 2,800% to cast
Magicka Regen 19,000% faster
Fortify Enchanting 396,626% - That breaks the game literally!

Now that there was funny. Thanks for the laughs.

[DragonRageGT]

Redneck1st wrote...

That is why I like games like Oblivion and Skyrim there is so much to do and explore that on one or two playthroughs its hard to explore and cover everything that there is to cover. Which makes the next play through a little more interesting because you got places that you've yet to explore.

True but, how on Earth do we remember which places we already explored and which we didn't? And how we make sure to discover the latter? =) Other than Questlines, MQ and some fixed location Quests and Miscellaneous, I mean.

Locations don't show on the map until we discover them. Some we didn't discover in previous runs, some we did. Some we may never will, without a playthrough guide of some sort and many refuse to use those, like me. Even some major and miscellaneous quests change their target location due to Radiant AI, which is cool.

This is my first char's World Map at hour 150. I've recreated him because I wanted to improve his built but also because the map made me dizzy and despaired! Some of those locations I had cleared, some I had not. Some I never found again! hahaha

TES V - Skyrim - Hour 150 HD

[Gotholhorakh]

RageGT wrote...


I can't believe I haven't cleared the Sighless Pit and Alftand with previous characters. Or perhaps I just don't remember, but I guess that everytime I went North with those chars, non-mages and all, I was already loaded with loot and forgot to go back there to explore later. The game is collosal. I always start in different areas and different paths.

---

I actually did Alftand with one previous character. Just couldn't remember it. But the blockade that will be on one of its areas until we trigger it by the MQ reminded me. =)

Weirdly, I don't think I've cleared Sightless Pit, either - this seems to happen most when Dragons spawn nearby (which does happen there iirc) and I "make a note to self" about the place and move on to the fun bit.

I have moved right on from certain orc dwelling places, too - it's clear they don't want the company of outsiders in their own places, and my current main char is the type to totally respect that.

I just love the way you can go off on your own little (or immense) missions - I've been hunting down and killing deathlords, which is great fun - except Lydia seems to have been quite badly injured and is crawling around behind me like Gollum. I sense a disturbance in the force, due to an impending reload.

One small thing I would like to be able to do when I hunt things or people, is take their heads to hang up in my house (a la ancient European peoples), I guess that's a mod somewhere down the line.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 06 janvier 2012 - 02:14 .

[Elhanan]

Yrkoon wrote...

Indeed.  like  Assassinating the Emperor,  ending a civil war (can't do that in DA2!), Killing  dragons, Dealing with Daedric Gods, recovering world-shaping ancient documents, traveling to the afterlife  and saving it from an evil menace...

Epic Skyrim Handy man  is Epic.

Correct; in DA2, one starts the Civil War, does battle with demons and reigning officials, opposes the takeover from a foreign leader, slays dragons, deals with demonic demi-gods, recovers world shaping artifacts, travels from a war torn nation to a large city and unleashes an evil menace....

Still Epic....