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[Addai]

happy_daiz wrote...

^ Fair enough. My views on the whole thing started to change after talking to Elisif, too. I think I was taking pity on her for the loss of her husband, and really just put myself in her shoes. That, in addition to the face-value racism in Windhelm just sort of pushed me over the edge. I know it's not completely logical, but emotions rarely ever are. The fact that I care about pixels to that degree makes me feel a little weird and squishy at the same time.

See, Elisif just makes me roll my eyes and want to kick her teeth in.  Torygg, at least, had some courage in accepting Ulfric's challenge, but even he is presented as a puppet.  So my sympathy for them is more like pity for supposedly proud Nords who've been reduced to sitting around as figureheads for an empire that itself is only a shadow of what it used to be.

Galmar and Ulfric are men's men.  Rawr. 

I must admit, the Argonians are actually the race that made me sad in Windhelm. Most of them (not that there are many there) just seem unhappy, and kind of stuck where they are. If I'd just quit creating new characters, I could finish up one of my playthroughs where I'm siding with the Legion...I really want to see if it makes a difference, but I'm guessing it's probably not much of one.

On a sidenote, I wish there were more Khajiit in Skyrim, but I don't blame them for not leaving the warm sands of Elsweyr.

There I think the writers play a bit with expectations, too.  You're meant to feel sorry for the beast races because the Nords look down on them, but so often they fulfill the Nords' low expectations of them.  I met this Khajiit woman outside Dawnstar who complained how it wasn't fair that the Nords think they're all thieves and smugglers, then admitted she was in Skyrim because she'd been kicked out of both Elsweyr and Cyrodiil for run-ins with the law.  lol  Last night I found the body of an Argonian in a sabre cat den, and he had "Be a Better Thief" on him.  And so on.

I never much liked the Argonian theme, but The Infernal City's main characters are a Breton woman and her Argonian... well, you'd almost think he was her lover, but at least her best friend... and it also takes place in Black Marsh.  It's pretty interesting.  I have more appreciation for the lizards after reading it (not quite done yet).

Modifié par Addai67, 13 janvier 2012 - 08:41 .

[Agamo45]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Barbarossa2010 wrote... 
I would've said that this was something approaching masterful writing, but I'm told Bethesda doesn't do stories.

Yeah I keep hearing the same.  Funny.

I also liked the civil war quest line a lot, and appreciated the shades of grey and the unease about brother against brother.  That's how it should be.  Very well done IMO, though the resolution was not all that I desired.

Agreed, I think it's one of the best stories I've taken part in in a computer game for a very long time. I have felt like a Stormcloak, and like you Barbarossa there have been challenges along the way.

To be fair my main character, as a proud and happy Nord living in an area where Talos worship had been banned, found a place in the Stormcloaks a good fit.

As more has been revealed about the Empire, and the Thalmor, and Ulfric, my character has only felt their path to be the right one with stronger and stronger conviction.

Yes, there have been Imperial men to kill, but war is hell when you bring swords to bear against the people of a land to defend your Empire's treachery and weakness. There are only two things that can happen when you stand in the way of the Stormcloaks on behalf of the Thalmor - your death or theirs - and the only right thing that can happen is that you are swept aside.

On reading more about Ulfric, the Empire and the Thalmor, my char only felt disdain for their slimy ways, their attempts to manipulate things to their own devious ends - and in fact even had Ulfric been at fault, fealty is fealty and honour is honour - my character would have held to their oath regardless.

As for Tullius? A symbol of Imperial corruption and weakness yes, but worse, base treachery - the Nords and Talos were nailed to a gibbet for theThalmor crows to feast on, as had been the courageous Redguard - that the pathetic corpse of a long-dead empire might rot a little longer. As for his friend? Well you stand waving a sword in the way of the righteous, you get dead. Deservedly so.

The only thing that made my character impatient was waiting respectfully for the King to finish asking before dispatching the Imperial... person.



Now I'm interested to see how the imperial version will feel after playing a dedicated Stormcloak. I suspect my experience will be similar to yours.

I found the Imperial path to be not nearly as satisfying. For one, no matter which race I play, I just can't picture my character siding with the Imperials. The Empire was about to have you EXECUTED, for a crime you didn't commit. That alone is proof enough of their corruption, and reason enough to want to fight them. You'd have to be a diehard imperial to still support them, and even then I find it hard to believe. Another thing, the Stormcloaks have a real and inspiring goal that they are fighting for, whereas the Imperial legionnaires are just soldiers for hire, doing the dirty work for the Empire and it's real masters, the Thalmor. You don't have to be a Nord to understand that the weakness and corruption of the Empire will lead to all of the races being enslaved by the Dominion. That's how I reconciled it with my non-Nordic characters.

[Nashiktal]

happy_daiz wrote...

^ Fair enough. My views on the whole thing started to change after talking to Elisif, too. I think I was taking pity on her for the loss of her husband, and really just put myself in her shoes. That, in addition to the face-value racism in Windhelm just sort of pushed me over the edge. I know it's not completely logical, but emotions rarely ever are. The fact that I care about pixels to that degree makes me feel a little weird and squishy at the same time.

I do agree about the Dunmer in Windhelm. Some seem happy to stew in what they view to be active oppression, and others rise above, and make a life for themselves. Other (Nord) residents in Windhelm are seen enforcing their hate, upon your first arrival to the city, which helps to drive home the point. I always make sure to get in Rolff Storm-Fist's face (brawl) right after entering the city. It just makes me feel a little better. Strangely, he now says the "you've been a good friend to me" line every time I see him.

I must admit, the Argonians are actually the race that made me sad in Windhelm. Most of them (not that there are many there) just seem unhappy, and kind of stuck where they are. If I'd just quit creating new characters, I could finish up one of my playthroughs where I'm siding with the Legion...I really want to see if it makes a difference, but I'm guessing it's probably not much of one.

On a sidenote, I wish there were more Khajiit in Skyrim, but I don't blame them for not leaving the warm sands of Elsweyr.

Siding with the legion changes nothing in windhelm. According to the new jarl it is because he doesn't want to rock the boat so soon after taking power.

Although I suspect its more so bethesda can keep everything "mostly" stable so that all the quests and whatnot are not disrupted.

[Agamo45]

Addai67 wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...
Now I'm interested to see how the imperial version will feel after playing a dedicated Stormcloak. I suspect my experience will be similar to yours.

I've tried to do it and don't think I can.  My personal affinity is for the Stormcloaks anyway, but also the early game sets up quite a few barriers to trusting the empire.  Not just them trying to cut your head off, but when you go to Tullius he has nothing to say about that little tidbit.  "Oh, you were at Helgen, go talk to Rikke if you want to join up."  Wha??  I just have no motivation at all to do that.  Rikke is likeable, at least.

As for killing Col. Tigh, I didn't feel any animosity toward him but taking his head is blood rights for Helgen.  I was expecting Elisif to be next on the block, actually, and was surprised that she wasn't.  All in all the civil war could have been a lot bloodier and more savage than it actually was, not just based on real such wars but even based on TES lore.

This. I was disappointed that there wasn't a slew of executions at the end. I can understand Ulfrics reasons for letting Elisif live, but the other deposed jarls should have gotten their heads chopped off.

[happy_daiz]

Nashiktal wrote...
Siding with the legion changes nothing in windhelm. According to the new jarl it is because he doesn't want to rock the boat so soon after taking power.

Although I suspect its more so bethesda can keep everything "mostly" stable so that all the quests and whatnot are not disrupted.

^ Well, that's disappointing, but more or less expected. Oh well. It won't keep me from playing.

Modifié par happy_daiz, 13 janvier 2012 - 08:57 .

[Nashiktal]

Agamo45 wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Barbarossa2010 wrote... 
I would've said that this was something approaching masterful writing, but I'm told Bethesda doesn't do stories.

Yeah I keep hearing the same.  Funny.

I also liked the civil war quest line a lot, and appreciated the shades of grey and the unease about brother against brother.  That's how it should be.  Very well done IMO, though the resolution was not all that I desired.

Agreed, I think it's one of the best stories I've taken part in in a computer game for a very long time. I have felt like a Stormcloak, and like you Barbarossa there have been challenges along the way.

To be fair my main character, as a proud and happy Nord living in an area where Talos worship had been banned, found a place in the Stormcloaks a good fit.

As more has been revealed about the Empire, and the Thalmor, and Ulfric, my character has only felt their path to be the right one with stronger and stronger conviction.

Yes, there have been Imperial men to kill, but war is hell when you bring swords to bear against the people of a land to defend your Empire's treachery and weakness. There are only two things that can happen when you stand in the way of the Stormcloaks on behalf of the Thalmor - your death or theirs - and the only right thing that can happen is that you are swept aside.

On reading more about Ulfric, the Empire and the Thalmor, my char only felt disdain for their slimy ways, their attempts to manipulate things to their own devious ends - and in fact even had Ulfric been at fault, fealty is fealty and honour is honour - my character would have held to their oath regardless.

As for Tullius? A symbol of Imperial corruption and weakness yes, but worse, base treachery - the Nords and Talos were nailed to a gibbet for theThalmor crows to feast on, as had been the courageous Redguard - that the pathetic corpse of a long-dead empire might rot a little longer. As for his friend? Well you stand waving a sword in the way of the righteous, you get dead. Deservedly so.

The only thing that made my character impatient was waiting respectfully for the King to finish asking before dispatching the Imperial... person.



Now I'm interested to see how the imperial version will feel after playing a dedicated Stormcloak. I suspect my experience will be similar to yours.

I found the Imperial path to be not nearly as satisfying. For one, no matter which race I play, I just can't picture my character siding with the Imperials. The Empire was about to have you EXECUTED, for a crime you didn't commit. That alone is proof enough of their corruption, and reason enough to want to fight them. You'd have to be a diehard imperial to still support them, and even then I find it hard to believe. Another thing, the Stormcloaks have a real and inspiring goal that they are fighting for, whereas the Imperial legionnaires are just soldiers for hire, doing the dirty work for the Empire and it's real masters, the Thalmor. You don't have to be a Nord to understand that the weakness and corruption of the Empire will lead to all of the races being enslaved by the Dominion. That's how I reconciled it with my non-Nordic characters.

Corruption? You were caught with  Ulfric stormcloak, leader of the friggin rebellion. All they have on you is your word that you are not a stormcloak, which doesn't mean much. For all they know you were collaberating with ulfric on the border to get outside resources or something.

Couple that its only the imperial captain (not the general, nor anyone else ) who wants you executed. I don't see why you hold that as evidence to their corruption. I can understand not being happy with them for almost being executed but otherwise I do not see why you would think so.

And don't even get me started with the thalmor. The empire doesn't work for them, the empire doesn't even plan to stay to the treaty for very long. Hell the empire didn't even enforce the treaty in skyrim, and there are multiple OPEN places to worship talos. 

In fact, the only people who banned talos in skyrim were either spme of the Jarls who supported the empire (and still there was talos worship) or the imperial garrison in solititude (who only removed talos from the divines temple, in the imperial garrison).

The stormcloaks having an inspiring goal is all well and good, but once the empire is gone from skyrim that leaves skyrim all alone against the thalmor, a very real and very powerful threat that is purposefully dividing the remaining nations (oh hmmm I wonder where that is happening...) so that they can conquer the remaining nations while they are weakened.

Modifié par Nashiktal, 13 janvier 2012 - 08:59 .

[Nashiktal]

Agamo45 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...
Now I'm interested to see how the imperial version will feel after playing a dedicated Stormcloak. I suspect my experience will be similar to yours.

I've tried to do it and don't think I can.  My personal affinity is for the Stormcloaks anyway, but also the early game sets up quite a few barriers to trusting the empire.  Not just them trying to cut your head off, but when you go to Tullius he has nothing to say about that little tidbit.  "Oh, you were at Helgen, go talk to Rikke if you want to join up."  Wha??  I just have no motivation at all to do that.  Rikke is likeable, at least.

As for killing Col. Tigh, I didn't feel any animosity toward him but taking his head is blood rights for Helgen.  I was expecting Elisif to be next on the block, actually, and was surprised that she wasn't.  All in all the civil war could have been a lot bloodier and more savage than it actually was, not just based on real such wars but even based on TES lore.

This. I was disappointed that there wasn't a slew of executions at the end. I can understand Ulfrics reasons for letting Elisif live, but the other deposed jarls should have gotten their heads chopped off.

Which is wierd for ulfric considering how he butchered the king. If he was so open to letting people go, he should have done that for the high king, which is inferred he would have been happy to leave skyrim or his position as king had he been talked to.

Modifié par Nashiktal, 13 janvier 2012 - 09:04 .

[happy_daiz]

Addai67 wrote...
See, Elisif just makes me roll my eyes and want to kick her teeth in.  Torygg, at least, had some courage in accepting Ulfric's challenge, but even he is presented as a puppet.  So my sympathy for them is more like pity for supposedly proud Nords who've been reduced to sitting around as figureheads for an empire that itself is only a shadow of what it used to be.
Galmar and Ulfric are men's men.  Rawr. 

I felt awful when I went into the basement of the Blue Palace, and saw the deposed Jarls down there (when I sided with the Stormcloaks). They were all quite angry, although Idgrod Ravencrone seemed pretty cool about the whole thing. I wish she had a bigger role; she's a cool character.

And I just read this in the ES wiki: 

Ravencrone also makes a brief appearance in Diplomatic Immunity as a party guest to the Thalmor embassy. If befriended by Ravencrone prior to the quest, she can assist the player in creating a distraction required to continue the quest.

I swear, you'd think I just saw a squirrel! (where?!)

For this much debate off and on over one quest line in a video game, I'd have to say Bethesda succeeded in their storytelling. Naysayers can naysay.

Modifié par happy_daiz, 13 janvier 2012 - 09:07 .

[Nashiktal]

happy_daiz wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
See, Elisif just makes me roll my eyes and want to kick her teeth in.  Torygg, at least, had some courage in accepting Ulfric's challenge, but even he is presented as a puppet.  So my sympathy for them is more like pity for supposedly proud Nords who've been reduced to sitting around as figureheads for an empire that itself is only a shadow of what it used to be.
Galmar and Ulfric are men's men.  Rawr. 

I felt awful when I went into the basement of the Blue Palace, and saw the deposed Jarls down there. They were all quite angry, although Idgrod Ravencrone seemed pretty cool about the whole thing. I wish she had a bigger role; she's a cool character.

And I just read this in the ES wiki: 

Ravencrone also makes a brief appearance in Diplomatic Immunity as a party guest to the Thalmor embassy. If befriended by Ravencrone prior to the quest, she can assist the player in creating a distraction required to continue the quest.

I swear, you'd think I just saw a squirrel! (where?!)

For this much debate off and on over one quest line in a video game, I'd have to say Bethesda succeeded in their storytelling. Naysayers can naysay.

Ravencrone's part is hilarious. She essentially plays the crochety old women with a vision bit and accuses some people with nonsense predictions to make an uproar.

[happy_daiz]

Nashiktal wrote...

Ravencrone's part is hilarious. She essentially plays the crochety old women with a vision bit and accuses some people with nonsense predictions to make an uproar.

She is now my new favorite NPC.

[Addai]

It's not true that the empire isn't cooperating in banning Talos worship. The Talos Mistake was written by an imperial. They're giving aid and comfort to the Thalmor. On my thief character, I did the cease fire meeting to see what it would be like- Tullius arguing about Elenwen having the right to be there was just... ugh. Though I think he did it to set Ulfric off.

Speaking of that scene, it's the one time you see Elisif show any backbone at all- she doesn't want to sit at the same table with Ulfric, which is understandable. Of course she knuckles under when Tullius tut-tuts her. It's a wonder he didn't chuck her on the chin. *gross* Ulfric literally won't sit down until Elenwen is gone. It was all very interesting, even though it's a total waste of the Dovahkiin's and everyone else's time.

[Addai]

happy_daiz wrote...
I felt awful when I went into the basement of the Blue Palace, and saw the deposed Jarls down there (when I sided with the Stormcloaks). They were all quite angry, although Idgrod Ravencrone seemed pretty cool about the whole thing. I wish she had a bigger role; she's a cool character.

Yes I like her.  I was sad that she got deposed, also Balgruuf.  It was that much more of a shame that stupid Elisif gets to keep her jarlship but those two don't.  But part of the reason I like those two is the Nord stubbornness that keeps them from playing politics.

Letting the drunk do the distraction at the embassy is the most hilarious.

[Addai]

Nashiktal wrote...
Which is wierd for ulfric considering how he butchered the king. If he was so open to letting people go, he should have done that for the high king, which is inferred he would have been happy to leave skyrim or his position as king had he been talked to.

But see, Ulfric had no animosity towards Torygg.  I think he sees his death as necessary to wake the Nords up and send the imperials a message they can't ignore.

He also tries to beg Rikke to surrender and says he'll let her leave.  She won't do it.  Ah Ivanova, you're a good one.

Modifié par Addai67, 13 janvier 2012 - 09:22 .

[Swoo]

Honestly, I think Ulfric is more in line with opportunistic speciesism than out-right racism. You have seen it a lot in our real world history that one of the easiest rises to power is uniting 'us' versus 'them', and I think he plays the card masterfully. The great thing about this story is it's very clear that he's doing exactly what the Thalmor thought he would do if they made the Empire put a little squeeze on Skyrim. Plus, if he wins the Thalmor have leverage on him. It may have been unwilling via torture, but Ulfric did break and was used by the Thalmor. If that got out, I think it could ruin anything he's done since there - even if he told them to sod off after the fact.

You make a good point about the Mer in Windhelm, I believe it's an Altmer near the blacksmith that says that the Dunmer would rather wallow and expect things to be as they want them rather than adapt and thrive in a new culture. Add into it that the Nords have been fighting one form of Mer or another for basically their whole history and it makes perfect sense that they are frosty until proven otherwise.

I love that there is so much on the fringes of the story that sets so much up for the xpacs and next games. The Argonians are quietly building up a ton of real estate. The Bretons have to be looking at a free-Skyrim and The Reach and wondering if they can make a move on it, using some of the same politics Ulfric himself had. The Thalmor of course are up to no good, although thanks for pointing out that book Addai, I missed it. I'm hoping to see some guerilla Altmer warriors fighting for Summerset. The Empire is of course boned either way Skyrim goes down, and it's possible Titus Mede II is toast by games end. On and on. A lot of fun stuff to think on.

Addai67 wrote...

See I think Ulfric's "racism" is a bit of mischievousness on the part of the writers.  Ulfric never says a single thing that can be construed as racist, unless you see him talking about Nords ruling themselves as such.  So all you get is rumor and report about him, albeit in one case from his advisor, Brunwulf.  The problems in Windhelm are long-standing and partly of the Dunmers' own making, in my view.  Right under your nose in Windhelm are all these Altmer who are doing just fine, and a few Dunmer who aren't carrying around a lot of xenophobic pride and are willing to take menial work to get by.  There's also the fact that some of the Stormcloak jarls have more "diverse" households than the imperials.

[Giggles_Manically]

If you ask Ulfric he actually says that Skyrim is a home to more than just Nords.

Plenty of his followers are racist and he certainly has had bad times with Mer in the past but most nords are kind of racist.

They ALL dont let Khajit traders into their city after all.
However outside of Ulfirc I dont see the other jarls segregating their cities like he does. Or hear stories about them ignoring groups they dont like.

I guess it boils down to the fact that there is lingering resentment and Ulfirc does have cause to not like elves. But even though my current pc is a high elf Ulfric respects him.

Also come on who did not snicker when Ulfric told Elenwen to shut up?

[Elhanan]

I like the Imperials due to my personal treatment by those in Riverside and Whiterun, as opposed to the snobbery and bullying seen openly by the Battle-Born Clan. Of course, if you take other paths, then first impressions may be different.

And if you have little to no involvement with Morthal before taking the Stormcloak side in the Civil War, Jarl Ravencrone gives the Dragonborn a fair tongue lashing along with the other deposed officials. As I like her character too, I wish I could have her step in for some of the others; much prefer this spirited NPC over some of the more wishy-washy, entitled, or snobbish admins seen in the game.

[Addai]

I don't think any other holds have sizeable Argonian populations except Riften- which is also a Stormcloak hold, though only barely. Skooma lady says that the Nord in charge of those docks is a good man and pays them fairly. He's the Mara convert with the Dunmer wife who's sleeping around.

Windhelm has a situation that no other city has- they were the first stop on the Dunmer refugee train. In the past, at least, the Dunmer were asked for no compensation for their refuge, so it's no surprise they ended up in a slum. They do pay taxes now, though, at least the shopkeepers do.

[Joy Divison]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

Really poignant stuff about Civil-War arc.

I want to give you and Besthesda props here.  I think you are right and I found myself with much the same experiences.  I know there is a lot of room to critique the game's plot and how these separate quests are supposed to come together, but I thought they did a damn good job with the Civil War.

There is no "right" side, yet the arguments made by both side's antagonists - and I'm not just referring to Ulfric/Gamlen Tullius/forget his advisor, even the grunts and minor NPCs from nowhere places like Riften really articulate their positions well.

And hell if I wasn't torn just as you were about attacking Whiterun and the guards who I saw living there everyday and fought with against the first Dragon.  Really shows the ugly side of Civil Wars - brother vs. brother, neighbor vs. neighbor and all that.

I've only ever seen the Stormcloak ending, but the conversation btw/ Ulfric and Tulius was impressive.  Tulius was right, they weren't the bad guy, but so was Ulfric - they weren't the good guy either.

It would have been very easy to write Ulfric as hackneyed romanticized revolutionary liberator freeing his people from the big bad oppressive empire.  Major props to the writers for showing the ugly ambiguity and how both sides are usually right and wrong in wars

[Nashiktal]

We should remember that though the holds might belong to one faction or the other, most don't give a damn and are for themselves. Riften and Morthal are good examples for both sides. The Jarl for riften supports ulfric, at least peripherally, but she is firmly for riften and is not an active participant in the war.

Same for Morthal, Raven is on the side of the imperials, at least on the map, but she is not actively supporting the war.

[Nashiktal]

Joy Divison wrote...

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

Really poignant stuff about Civil-War arc.

I want to give you and Besthesda props here.  I think you are right and I found myself with much the same experiences.  I know there is a lot of room to critique the game's plot and how these separate quests are supposed to come together, but I thought they did a damn good job with the Civil War.

There is no "right" side, yet the arguments made by both side's antagonists - and I'm not just referring to Ulfric/Gamlen Tullius/forget his advisor, even the grunts and minor NPCs from nowhere places like Riften really articulate their positions well.

And hell if I wasn't torn just as you were about attacking Whiterun and the guards who I saw living there everyday and fought with against the first Dragon.  Really shows the ugly side of Civil Wars - brother vs. brother, neighbor vs. neighbor and all that.

I've only ever seen the Stormcloak ending, but the conversation btw/ Ulfric and Tulius was impressive.  Tulius was right, they weren't the bad guy, but so was Ulfric - they weren't the good guy either.

It would have been very easy to write Ulfric as hackneyed romanticized revolutionary liberator freeing his people from the big bad oppressive empire.  Major props to the writers for showing the ugly ambiguity and how both sides are usually right and wrong in wars

Agreed. For all its faults the civil war brings out passionate debate and feelings. In most other games I wouldn't give a damn about ulfric, but I actively dislike him, and I actively work against him in the game. Its impressive the world bethesda has weaved.

[Joy Divison]

Addai67 wrote...

See, Elisif just makes me roll my eyes and want to kick her teeth in.  Torygg, at least, had some courage in accepting Ulfric's challenge, but even he is presented as a puppet.  So my sympathy for them is more like pity for supposedly proud Nords who've been reduced to sitting around as figureheads for an empire that itself is only a shadow of what it used to be.

Galmar and Ulfric are men's men.  Rawr. 

Elisif is weatherwane.  She always goes with what's trendy or who had the last word.  But as she is so utterly consistent in being easily swayed, she is one the of best NPCs in the story.

Besides she thinks my Dovahkiin is da bomb and made me Thane so she is doing something right

[billy the squid]

I wouldn't have considered it "racism" on the part of the Nords or Ulfric, rather nationalism. I like it that the writers have left it somewhat unclear as to the exact details of his stance on other races and their continued presence in Skyrim only the general thrust of Ulfric's stance are known.

As to the decay within the Empire. Looking at the peace settlement which allowed the Empire to survive brought no benefit to Skyrim, Hammerfell or the other provinces, only the Empire's Imperial heartlands. As such I can see why Ulfric feels the Empire a shackle which he want's to rid Skyrim of.

The Empire unilaterally ceeded southern Hammerfell to the Thalmor and banned the worship of Talos just to survive and the conversation with some of the Justiciers in the Thalmor Embassy state that the Thalmor themselves are preparing to attack again "lull before the storm".

In addition the Great War required levies of troops from Skyrim and the other provinces for the benefit of the Imperials, who were largely preoccupied by their own internal squabbling and corruption to form an effective response. Thus the Nords were forced to commit to a conflict with no foreseeable benefit to Skyrim and a treaty which was to their detriment accepted by Jarls, some of whom were in the Empire's pocket.

As to Skyrim's history with the Mer, I think they have been at war with them for several generations at one point or another. But, some Jarl's and cities have a mix of Mer within their walls and, like others have said, the situation in Windhelm seems more like the Dunmer wallowing in self pity, of their refugee status. Although Ulfric doesn't seem inclined to help in anyway. Perhaps his view is more indifferent rather than actively persuing a racist policy withing Windhelm? The whole idea that Nords should rule themselves is likely to take precedence over the protection of caravans and Ulfric seems clever enough to realise that Skyrim benefits from trade with other races such as Redguard, Orcmer, Kahjitt etc. But it's not something he can divert resources away from at the moment, paticularly if his plan is to unite Nords to push the Empire out of Skyrim as the majority of the other races may very well stay on the sidelines.

Modifié par billy the squid, 13 janvier 2012 - 11:32 .

[HoonDing]

Ironically, even though I support the Empire, I didn't hesitate one second when I had to cut Titus Mede's throat.

The death of Titus Mede might actually trigger another war with the Thalmor immediately, if Titus Mede's heir is a weakling.

[Brockololly]

Thats what I really like about the Civil War stuff with Ulfric- that you hear and read a good amount of second hand info on the man probably before you even meet him. So you have some opinion of him before he's opened his mouth (well, beyond the intro) and the truth and reality of who Ulfric actually is lies somewhere in the middle. He's not some ultranationalist racist zealot like the Empire tries to paint him and he's not necessarily some great patriot either.

I think the actual execution and quests could have been a little better at times, but I just love the peripheral story telling in Skyrim that fleshes out the world and makes it feel like a real world thats been moving along before the Dragonborn PC and will continue to move along after the PC is gone and forgotten.

[Joy Divison]

On a completely different note, what are the in-game options available to annoy Maven Black Briar? I *really* despise her and since I'm guessing she is tagged as essential so I can;t just gut her, I want to make sure I do everything I can to irritate/disrupt/impede her.

I am not a member of the thief's guild. So far I helped the guy who wanted to steal Frost and I did the smuggling quest to Ivarsted. Aside from pickpocketing her, what else can I do to make her day miserable?