37007 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

virumor wrote...

Like with Caesar's Legion in NV, there isn't really any logical reason to join with the Stormcloaks. They come across like a bunch of backwards hicks. I can't imagine ever joining them, unless I roleplay an anarchistic character or some isolationist Nord. But even that doesn't work well, considering in the beginning of the game your character crosses the border from Cyrodiil.

I have two characters, so I've sided with the Legion for one and the Stormcloaks for the other, but I don't see the latter as being anything like Caesar's Legion. Unlike New Vegas, I don't think it's as clear cut, especially with the vile aspects that were attributed to the Legion. I don't think either side is a villain. I can see someone siding with the Stormcloaks because they view the Thalmor as a real and serious danger, and don't think that the Justiciars should have free reign in Skyrim (which is a complaint made the pro-Legion smith Alvor, the uncle of Hadvar).

The proprietor in Falkreath accepts outsiders because of his time with the Stormcloaks, the two close-minded Nords in Windhelm are irate because the Dunmer aren't joining the Stormcloak cause, you end up with some competent Jarls and diversity with either decision you make (along with some bad Jarls), and Ulfric (as well as Tullius) isn't villified simply for being the opponent of the Dragonborn.

virumor wrote...

I also wonder whether the Empire actually delibaretely ratted out Ulfric to the Thalmor after the Markath Incident, after being informed (or finding out) it was Ulfric who broke under torture and gave the Thalmor critical information that led to the fall of the IMperial City. I'm guessing Ulfric protests so much at High Hrothgar because he's afraid about Elenwen spilling the beans about his past "exploits".

I doubt the Empire ratted him out - it seemed, according to Jarl Igmund, that they were hoping that the Thalmor simply wouldn't find out about the deal.

And the dossier claims that Ulfric was lead to believe the information he gave led to the downfall of the Imperial City, but that it wasn't the case. And Elewen seemed to be the one assigned to Ulfric, and the one who handled his "interrogation" in the first place.

[Giggles_Manically]

Nah the Stormcloaks are not Caesar's Legion.

They have NOTHING comparable to Nipton.
Where they met their deaths at the end of dynamite, revolvers, and my trusty cowboy repeater.

Added to it Ulfric really just wants to protect Nords from Thalmor.
Caesar is a nutty hypocritical ****** who slaves, burns, and rapes the lands since he think he can.

The Stormcloaks dont do that, and really they dont have that much racism just racist members.
Ralof, Ulfric, and Galmar all welcomed my Imperial with open arms when he joined them.

[HoonDing]

The fact is that there will be another war with the Thalmor, and by supporting the Stormcloaks the Empire stands alone (don't tell me anyone believes an isolationist like Ulfric would ever send help to anyone outside Skyrim, not to mention his general looks down on anyone who's not a Nord) and would be crushed by the full force of the Thalmor (remember how in the previous war they split their forces between Cyrodiil and Hammerfell).

After the fall of Cyrodiil, Skyrim would be next, despite Ulfric's delusions. The Thalmor could even combine a land invasion from the south with a coastal invasion.

With a united Empire, at least there would be a (small) chance to hold back the Thalmor for at least a while. I'm quite sure that a new Merethic Era is inevitable. In fact, humanity being reduced to secondary players (or slavery) would pave the way for a future main game to move to Akavir, or have as theme a new uprising against the Elven overlords (after another jump forward into the future by 200 years or so).

Modifié par virumor, 20 janvier 2012 - 08:31 .

[Phoenix_Fyre]

Got it. Love it. Chalked up over 500 saves O_O

I can FINALLY be the dual wielding werewolf I've dreamed out!

No lousy stats... just equip two swords and hack the living crap out of everything

[blaidfiste]

happy_daiz wrote...

^ Are you serious? That's odd. Am I going to hate it?

Maybe at those decibells all male/female dovakiin sound the same when shouting?

[Giggles_Manically]

virumor wrote...

The fact is that there will be another war with the Thalmor, and by supporting the Stormcloaks the Empire stands alone (don't tell me anyone believes an isolationist like Ulfric would ever send help to anyone outside Skyrim) and would be crushed by the full force of the Thalmor (remember how in the previous war they split their forces between Cyrodiil and Hammerfell).

After the fall of Cyrodiil, Skyrim would be next to fall. The Thalmor could even combine a land invasion from the south with a coastal invasion.

With a united Empire, at least there would be a (small) chance to hold back the Thalmor for at least a while. I'm quite sure that a new Merethic Era is inevitable. In fact, humanity being reduced to secondary players (or slavery) would pave the way for a future main game to move to Akavir, or have as theme a new uprising against the Elven overlords (after another jump forward into the future by 200 years or so).

Considering Ulfirc says point blank that the Thalmor are the TRUE threat to Skyrim and they will need all their strength to surivive there is no reason for him NOT to help.

Also perfect chance to rub it in the Empire's face that a free Skyrim helped save them. Also its much better to fight a war on someone elses soil, less property damage and all that.

[HoonDing]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Considering Ulfirc says point blank that the Thalmor are the TRUE threat to Skyrim and they will need all their strength to surivive there is no reason for him NOT to help.

There are plenty of reasons for Ulfric not to help.

But in the end, all these arguments depend on how one judges Ulfric's character and interprets certain writings and what NPCs say about him. 

[Addai]

Elhanan wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

On an entirely different note: Today is our 5th wedding anniversary, so if Mr. Addai is reading this, thank you for being my romance option. 

Does he cook dinner once a day? Give you an allowance? Stay at home and defend your things? If so, Congrats on a successful relationship!

He does cook dinner.  I'm going to have to start demanding my 100 septims a day. 

[Addai]

Yrkoon wrote...
Mages.  Now *there's* power.  And they got that special magic.  Can turn wood into gold.  Yeah.  Wish I could turn wood into gold.

Go to college, my dad said.  Use your smarts.  Like I'm supposed to figure out which college he meant.

[happy_daiz]

^ Haha, I know exactly where you heard that.

And congrats on your anniversary!

Modifié par happy_daiz, 20 janvier 2012 - 09:00 .

[Addai]

virumor wrote...

The fact is that there will be another war with the Thalmor, and by supporting the Stormcloaks the Empire stands alone (don't tell me anyone believes an isolationist like Ulfric would ever send help to anyone outside Skyrim, not to mention his general looks down on anyone who's not a Nord) and would be crushed by the full force of the Thalmor (remember how in the previous war they split their forces between Cyrodiil and Hammerfell).

After the fall of Cyrodiil, Skyrim would be next, despite Ulfric's delusions. The Thalmor could even combine a land invasion from the south with a coastal invasion.

I don't buy this.  Hammerfell was better off when the empire let it go, since Decianus had some brains and let the redguard legions stay home to fight.  Yes, that was because Cyrodiil had already taken the brunt of the Dominion's attacks, but all that is old news by the time you get to Skyrim.  I think an alliance of free nations fighting for their homes stands a better chance than what remains of a dying empire, being dragged down by bad leadership in Cyrodiil flailing to save itself.  Sure it won't be easy.  I don't have as dim a view of Ulfric's capability as you do, nor this idea that the Stormcloaks are impossibly racist and nationalist.  Galmar accepts the Dragonborn no matter what race, and like anyone, a Nord has to prove himself first before he'll accept him.  Ulfric says "Skyrim will lead all of Tamriel against the Dominion."  He doesn't envision fighting alone, he just wants the Nords to be sovereign in their own territory and free of the Mede empire which is only a frail shadow of the empire everyone is so nostalgic about.

And I don't know what makes anyone think that an empire that could not hold off the Dominion before can do so again in a much weaker position.  A Stormcloak victory is just a re-alignment of leadership.  It lets the Thalmor know that Mede's surrender in the WGC was a false one.  The same players are on the field.  Cyrodiil itself might be headed for civil war if they make the DB conclusion canon.

Modifié par Addai67, 20 janvier 2012 - 09:04 .

[Splinter Cell 108]

Does anybody know which races get yellow/gold eyes as vampires aside from Argonians and Khajiit? I'm planning something for future playthroughs.

[HoonDing]

Addai67 wrote...

And I don't know what makes anyone think that an empire that could not hold off the Dominion before can do so again in a much weaker position.  A Stormcloak victory is just a re-alignment of leadership.  It lets the Thalmor know that Mede's surrender in the WGC was a false one.  The same players are on the field.  Cyrodiil itself might be headed for civil war if they make the DB conclusion canon.

Mede did not surrender.

I also think that it won't matter which side you choose. There will probably be some grand McGuffin coming up in a DLC or expansion that will crush the Thalmor. Like the Numidium.

Modifié par virumor, 20 janvier 2012 - 09:26 .

[Gotholhorakh]

virumor wrote...

The fact is that there will be another war with the Thalmor, and by supporting the Stormcloaks the Empire stands alone (don't tell me anyone believes an isolationist like Ulfric would ever send help to anyone outside Skyrim, not to mention his general looks down on anyone who's not a Nord) and would be crushed by the full force of the Thalmor (remember how in the previous war they split their forces between Cyrodiil and Hammerfell).

Isolationist is a little strong, the Stormcloak movement seeing the Nords and the Talos religion as the "empire's own", the recurring theme of the Empire betraying its own says that they see themselves as invested in the overall fate of the Empire, even if it is eventually (long term view) with them at the head of it as they should be.

Also Ulfric is a strongly good character, I can't see any reason for the Stormcloak command to have anything but affiliation with other provinces defending their own lands against the Thalmor.

As for the Empire alone - the Empire lost when it held all of its realms and was larger and stronger than it is now, even including the way it threw its citizens to the dogs when it thought that might help it avoid defeat.

There is no sane reason to think that staying with the Empire now it is weaker - ie trying the same thing again with reduced stats - will get a better result.

Besides which, the Empire had already sold Skyrim up the river, demonstrated it could not defend its boundaries, and knew from the WGC that Skyrim was a Thalmor target.

They were in the Number One spot to either become the next Hammerfell, or just be ceded to avoid a fight.

I know I'd rather be Hammerfell, and so, as he has shown, would Ulfric.

After the fall of Cyrodiil, Skyrim would be next, despite Ulfric's delusions. The Thalmor could even combine a land invasion from the south with a coastal invasion.

Yes, and almost 100% certainty that the Empire would capitulate and cede Skyrim.

With no armies and crown to fight in the Empire's absence.

With a united Empire, at least there would be a (small) chance to hold back the Thalmor for at least a while. I'm quite sure that a new Merethic Era is inevitable. In fact, humanity being reduced to secondary players (or slavery) would pave the way for a future main game to move to Akavir, or have as theme a new uprising against the Elven overlords (after another jump forward into the future by 200 years or so).

No. The Empire has been playing at Julian diplomacy with the Thalmor for a long time - that is give them whatever the hell they want to keep them from fighting you, and call it holding territory.

The Thalmor clearly have a grudge against the Nords. Better that they choose early the path the courageous Redguard found themselves on by necessity. That is, self-determination/independence and readiness to fight.

They will have some of the advantages the Redguard had, too - like not being wimps, and the fact they're fighting for their own land, the ground beneath their feet and their families, rather than imperial troops fighting lily-livered defensive actions in foreign lands to protect areas and people they couldn't care less about, for gold coin.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 20 janvier 2012 - 10:14 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Considering that most if not all human nations have the PROUD WARRIOR RACE GUY trope running for them i think they will be fine.

Good money is on TES6 being set in the Sumerset Isles with the Thalmor as the main foe.
Allowing us to smash them to bits....

GOD DAMN IT playing an Orc warrior is messing with me.

[HoonDing]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Also Ulfric is a strongly good character, I can't see any reason for the Stormcloak command to have anything but affiliation with other provinces defending their own lands against the Thalmor.

If Ulfric were strongly good, he wouldn't have murdered the High King (who was willing to shed his throne for Ulfric, even), or ignore the plight of the non-Nords in Windhelm. I'm deliberately not mentioning Markarth because that's dubious.

Even Balgruuf is more "good" than Ulfric.

As for the Empire alone - the Empire lost when it held all of its realms and was larger and stronger than it is now, even including the way it threw its citizens to the dogs when it thought that might help it avoid defeat.

Not really, the war started when the Empire had already lost Valenwood, Elsweyr, Morrowind and Argonia.

Yes, and almost 100% certainty that the Empire would capitulate and cede Skyrim.

I doubt it, as capitulation would equal annihilation, note the massacre in the Imperial City after it fell.

The Thalmor clearly have a grudge against the Nords. Better that they choose early the path the courageous Redguard found themselves on by necessity. That is, self-determination/independence and readiness to fight.

Well, the Thalmor have a grudge against pretty much everyone save their own. 

No. The Empire has been playing at Julian diplomacy with
the Thalmor for a long time - that is give them whatever the hell they
want to keep them from fighting you, and call it holding territory.

Yes, and no doubt secretly rebuilding and preparing for another war. Pity, though, that Ulfric's petty rebellion is draining valuable resources.

They will have some of the advantages the Redguard had, too - like not being wimps, and the fact they're fighting for their own land, the ground beneath their feet and their families, rather than imperial troops fighting lily-livered defensive actions in foreign lands to protect areas and people they couldn't care less about, for gold coin.

The actions of Titus Mede III in recapturing the Imperial City were hardly wimpy. Also, without Decianus' legions and the remnants he left behind nothing of Hammerfell would've remained to fight themselves free.

At any rate... screw Tamriel and leave it to the Elves, I want to go to Akavir.

Modifié par virumor, 20 janvier 2012 - 11:32 .

[Addai]

virumor wrote...
If Ulfric were strongly good, he wouldn't have murdered the High King (who was willing to shed his throne for Ulfric, even), or ignore the plight of the non-Nords in Windhelm.

Are you saying that about Torygg because he accepted the duel even though he knew he was going to die?  I suppose you could see it that way, though he would have spared a lot of lives if he had declined the duel, then voluntarily stepped aside at a moot and endorsed Ulfric's bid for kingship.

As for Windhelm, that gets soooo overblown.  200 years prior to game time, the Nords let the Dunmer take a whole quarter of their city without asking for any compensation or fealty.  My guess is a "you leave us alone, we leave you alone" mentality was set up that was as much the making of Dunmer as Nord.  Now no one remembers that in a desperate hour, the Nords were extraordinarily generous (considering the Dunmer were their old enemies), and the Dunmers' own xenophobia has prevented them from assimilating as well as the Altmer.  Although even some of the Dunmer are doing fine- the Hlaalus own a farm that employs Nords, for example.

People say "there aren't any elves in the Stormcloaks!" and interpret that as racism when in fact the Dunmer you first encounter in Windhelm gives the reason why- she says "it's not our fight," and Ulfric agrees with them, not demanding they provide any troops even though they benefit from the refuge of a walled city (a big deal in medieval terms).  Their concerns aren't first on his list as a result, but how this gets blown up into "Ulfric is a n*azi!!1!" I'll never understand.  It's especially ironic considering this is the Dunmer we're talking about.

Not really, the war started when the Empire had already lost Valenwood, Elsweyr, Morrowind and Argonia.

But the empire let those provinces go without a whimper.  The war started long before Cyrodiil was invaded.

I doubt it, as capitulation would equal annihilation, note the massacre in the Imperial City after it fell.

Pretty sure she means they would use Skyrim as a bargaining chip to save Cyrodiil, just as they tried to do with Hammerfell.

Yes, and no doubt secretly rebuilding and preparing for another war. 

How can they do that when they give the Thalmor access wherever they demand it?

Also, without Decianus' legions and the remnants he left behind nothing of Hammerfell would've remained to fight themselves free.

Those were redguard, and the empire tried to leech them away from Hammerfell, too.  It was only because Decianus disobeyed orders that they were left behind.  You can argue that they would have had even more troops if the redguard legions hadn't been off fighting in Cyrodiil, reducing their numbers.  It's the exact same for Skyrim.  As much as you argue that Ulfric's rebellion is drawing away imperial resources, the empire is draining Skyrim of manpower and mineral resources, too.  It works both ways.

Modifié par Addai67, 20 janvier 2012 - 11:43 .

[Giant ambush beetle]

I just got attacked by a Vigilants of Stendarr patrol for no reason while simply traveling on the coastline. Could it be that they don't like people who make daedra quests and carry daedric equipment with them? 

Modifié par The Woldan , 21 janvier 2012 - 12:21 .

[billy the squid]

Ulfric didn't murder the high king, he was killed in single combat after being challenged by Ulfric. It is the Nord way, the right to rule and is legitimate. Torygg, as Addai said, accepted the duel, he didn't have to, but then he would have lost legitimate authority as high king and would have been forced to abdicate and the moot would have elected a new high king.

By fighting the duel he obviously meant to hold on to power. Whilst Balgruuf is a simply watching which side gains the upper hand and trying to remain neutral, talking to him makes it clear that he doesn't want to declare for oneside or the other in the civil war, being more interested in Whiterun's safety and security. He's not "good" but dare I say a politician.

Ulfric is Nationalistic in his approach, and believes in Nordic rule of Skyrim, but he obviously can't give way every Nord who can't or won't side with him, he's leading a rebellion to unite Skyrim along nationalist lines.

As to the points of accepting or helping those of non Nordic stock, I agree with Addai, again. I just read the book "Scourge of the Grey Quarter" in game, which points out the problems between Riften and Windhelm in dealing with the Dunmer. It describes it pretty much as Addai has already stated. I'll only add that in Riften the Dunmer did integrate and work within the city, the same for the Argonians within Windhem, both having significantly less problems than the Dunmer in Windhelm.

As to the start of the war, whilst I wouldn't say the Empire let the provinces, such as Valenwood go without a whimper, they were far too bound up in their own infighting and corruption to realise, or if they did, take note of the larger threat, beyond whom was to succeed as Emperor. Hence the forced retreat by the Imperial Legions when the Aldmeri Dominion almost encircled them. Whilst I don't think the Empire would hesitate to give ceede more territories to the Dominion, they have a track record in selling subject provinces out if they think it will buy them time and defend the Imperial heartlands.

The fact that the Redguard alone, gave the Thalmor a bloody nose, on their own after the Empire abandoned them makes me think that the Nords would be able to hold their own against the Thalmor when fighting on their home turf, after all the Legion draws it's soldiers from the provinces, hence Decianus' Legions were composed of Redguard and the Legions under Jonna's were Nords. Yet both were obliged to fight for Cyrodiil, although the Empire was willing to abandon Hammerfell in return.

It seems to me that The Empire is building it's armies, but they will be composed of Nords and Redguard, not Imperials. Thus Skyrim and the weakened Hammerfell are forced to supply support for Cyrodiil when it was already weakened before the start of the Great War and is arguably in a worse position now than it was to begin with. The Empire is playing a game of self preservation, the only reason they wouldn't ceede Skyrim is because they loose the one province which can supply them military support. Without Hammerfell and Skyrim Cyrodiil looks to be in a rather dire position.

[billy the squid]

The Woldan wrote...

I just got attacked by a Vigilants of Stendarr patrol for no reason while simply traveling on the coastline. Could it be that they don't like people who make daedra quests and carry daedric equipment with them? 

I think the more Daedric quests you complete the more upity they get. I haven't ecountered them for a while, but I've done 5/6 so far, so they might not like me anymore.

[Elhanan]

The Woldan wrote...

I just got attacked by a Vigilants of Stendarr patrol for no reason while simply traveling on the coastline. Could it be that they don't like people who make daedra quests and carry daedric equipment with them? 

As Bugs would say, "Hmm? Could be....."

[Dragoonlordz]

billy the squid wrote...

The Woldan wrote...

I just got attacked by a Vigilants of Stendarr patrol for no reason while simply traveling on the coastline. Could it be that they don't like people who make daedra quests and carry daedric equipment with them? 

I think the more Daedric quests you complete the more upity they get. I haven't ecountered them for a while, but I've done 5/6 so far, so they might not like me anymore.

I took great pleasure in pissing them off to be honest at every chance I could. Whether in dagger one letting guy get away, teasing the one about how tacky the mace is or refusing the giant orb one over the book in hideout, top of the Skyrim map.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 21 janvier 2012 - 12:36 .

[Giggles_Manically]

http://cloud.steampo...C2A8A74047FEAA/

Sometimes I think my Orc is thinking violent things.
Sometimes I think he is really just thinking about getting something to eat.

Here was the Jarl talking about Dragons and Burz was wondering where to get something to eat all of the sudden.

[DRUNK_CANADIAN]

I hate how abilities cap at 100

I had conjuring level 100 so long ago...like insanely long time ago...such a broken skill path, my spells didn't even get higher than appentice for it and I can still pwn like anything in the game, anyone have any locales for higher tier conjure spells? Or could they recommend an equally fun skill tree, I've got 1 handed and healing up there too, and currently playing around with block/alteration magic.

[AventuroLegendary]

Well, I LOVE lobbing fireballs and watch them take off a tiny sliver of health, even at 75 destruction. I understand that it is expert but can't spells be understandably more powerful? Other than that.

Are people seriously comparing the Stormcloaks to Caesar's legion? While the Empire and the NCR are VERY similar, the Legion and the Stormcloaks aren't. Speaking in DnD alignment terms, I'd have to say that the Legion is Lawful Evil and the Stormcloaks are Chaotic Neutral. The Legion are good intentioned, wanting to push the Thalmor out of Skyrim (Even though the chances of that happening without the Empire are very low) and gain independence. The Legion wants to rule the Mojave as they see fit with slavery and oppression everywhere. This isn't a Gray and black situation, it is a Gray and gray one.

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Ralof, Ulfric, and Galmar all welcomed my Imperial with open arms when he joined them. 

Err, You know how Bethesda is with this. Khajiits aren't allowed in cities, yet I could just bypass guards as a Khajiit. My Altmer was talking to a Stormcloak:
"True daughter of Skyrim? We could use someone like you"
"So what are your goals?"
"We hope to drive the Legion out. Once them, we will kick those damn elves out too. Wanna join?"
"0_0"

Modifié par LegendaryAvenger, 21 janvier 2012 - 02:56 .