37007 réponses à ce sujet

[Yrkoon]

Elhanan wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...
The dragonborn also moves damn fast pressing sprint.

And at least 3 times as fast as anything else in the game when he/she activates Whirlwind Sprint.

NPC's can still turn....

And you, apparently, can move the goalposts when the debate isn't going your way.

[Elhanan]

Yrkoon wrote...

And you, apparently, can move the goalposts when the debate isn't going your way.

No debate. NPC's are permitted to do things that the Player cannot. Quite used to this myself in all games, so using one game as exemplary is rather unwise.

[Yrkoon]

Elhanan, you appear to have a different copy of Skyrim than everyone else. First you claim that you can't  fire arrows from your bow through cages and bars (which no one else seems to have a problem doing) And now you're going on about Enemies who can flee in a super fast way that cannot be duplicated by the Dovakiin. I'm calling a halt to this BS now. Can you show me a video of this super fast (faster than sprinting) running that the enemies in your game carry out?

Because your entire argument hinges on it being true.   And I really don't feel like engaging in a debate about game mechanics with someone who's  really  describing gliches in his own game instead.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 03 février 2012 - 05:12 .

[Joy Divison]

I have yet to have an unaware target dodge a incoming projectile.

I have yet have an NPC escape because they move faster or can corner a turn better than me.

I have yet to notice an enemy mage acting as if it were under a haste effect.

I have yet to notice being hit by an enemy which I could not hit back. I have, however, hit enemies who were incapable of harming me.

Skyrim has its fair share of flaws and the Dragon Age series, even the second game, is better at role-playing aspect. But as far as combat mechanics go, it is not even a comparison.

[Giggles_Manically]

For the love of god people you have moved past beating a dead horse to bringing it back to life just to beat it to death AGAIN.

[happy_daiz]

^ I haven't experienced those speed/avoidance issues, either.

I have, however, noticed that my characters run pretty slow in heavy armor without the weightless perk, but that's just me being impatient.

Modifié par happy_daiz, 03 février 2012 - 05:15 .

[Addai]

Guards are sometimes more omniscient than they should be (also a problem in Oblivion), but they don't see you if you are truly invisible and stealthing. After killing Vittoria Vicci, I donned Shadowcloak of Nocturnal and was able to sneak all the way to the gates of Solitude without being detected. At that point, in opening the gate I de-cloaked so guards did see me (needed Roggvir around ). Once I took an invisibility potion and stealthed again, they lost me.

I haven't noticed enemies able to flee at superhuman speeds. I kept a leisurely pace with Calixto on his way back to Hjerim. Of course, I also wasn't trying to overtake him since I knew where he was going and didn't want to kill him out in the open.

Enemy AI doesn't auto-target. I'm able to dodge arrows or ice spikes if I'm fast enough. Likewise, my flame atronach will sometimes miss, even though she's pretty good. So if an enemy sometimes dodges my arrows or spells, it's all fair game. I think I'm actually more accurate than the AI on a good day, since I can anticipate where an enemy is going and target ahead of them.

I also have killed enemies through cage bars.

Modifié par Addai67, 03 février 2012 - 05:18 .

[Elhanan]

Yrkoon wrote...

Elhanan, you appear to have a different copy of Skyrim than everyone else. First you claim that you can't seem to fire arrows from your bow through cages and bars (which is ridiculously false) And now you're going on about Enemies who can flee in super fast motion that cannot be duplicated by the Doavakiin. I'm calling a halt to this BS now. Can you show me a video of this super fast (faster than sprinting) running that the enemies in your game carry out?

Because your entire argument hinges on it being true.

No; cannot show any example, but can indicate where it occured: Silent Moons Camp Mages at night, Windhelm marketplace killer during the day (ie; Blood on the Ice quest), Necromancers, skeletons and Draugr seen at several locations , etc.

And anyone trying to visit Sippi in Rifton may try to confirm and/or deny the statements posted. It would be cool if someone else could figure out a way besides Console Commands to exit his cell, and post it.

Maybe I do have a different copy; my Storm Call Shout works perfectly well. But then again, I am not an expert on Tech or fertilzer....

[Yrkoon]

Enemies have decent 'lateral movement' in skyrim. That is to say, they move side-to-side quickly, and thus can in fact,  frequently dodge player attacks, especially if that player happens to not have fast finger reflexes (yes, I'm talking to you, Elhanan. You've admitted you don't about 5 times on this thread).

But to claim that the quick dodging is something exclusive to the Enemy is just plain false. ANYONE who's mastered the controls in this game can do the exact same movements that those Pyromancers and Dragon priests do. Don't let the simple combat in Skyrim lull you into thinking there isn't another level of mastery at play here. There IS. You'd be SURPRIZED at what an Xbox Whiz kid can do in Skyrim with his controller.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 03 février 2012 - 05:34 .

[Joy Divison]

happy_daiz wrote...

^ I haven't experienced those speed/avoidance issues, either.

I have, however, noticed that my characters run pretty slow in heavy armor without the weightless perk, but that's just me being impatient.

Just shed that clunky armor.  You know you want to

Modifié par Joy Divison, 03 février 2012 - 05:33 .

[Elhanan]

Addai67 wrote...

Guards are sometimes more omniscient than they should be (also a problem in Oblivion), but they don't see you if you are truly invisible and stealthing. After killing Vittoria Vicci, I donned Shadowcloak of Nocturnal and was able to sneak all the way to the gates of Solitude without being detected. At that point, in opening the gate I de-cloaked so guards did see me (needed Roggvir around ). Once I took an invisibility potion and stealthed again, they lost me.

I haven't noticed enemies able to flee at superhuman speeds. I kept a leisurely pace with Calixto on his way back to Hjerim. Of course, I also wasn't trying to overtake him since I knew where he was going and didn't want to kill him out in the open.

Enemy AI doesn't auto-target. I'm able to dodge arrows or ice spikes if I'm fast enough. Likewise, my flame atronach will sometimes miss, even though she's pretty good. So if an enemy sometimes dodges my arrows or spells, it's all fair game. I think I'm actually more accurate than the AI on a good day, since I can anticipate where an enemy is going and target ahead of them.

I also have killed enemies through cage bars.

Try using a Shout when a Dragon is not attacking, and watch the guards play Hide & Seek fairly well. This may depend on the specific Shout and location; uncertain. But having one walk up to warn you that you are disturbing the peace while concealed is a little less than immersive while playing a Stealth role. IMO.

Did Calixto run from the marketplace? Was it during the day; not at night as predicted? Did anyone else note the criminal act like the Forsworn in Markarth? My game did....

I also have killed prisoners behind bars; Runes work well when left partially inside the cell. My task in Riftin was not to directly kill Sippi which may be easy enough if he is non-essential, but to try various methods in which another kills him, or he causes his own death. I tried Mark of Death as a test, and it may have disturbed some placeables, but left Sippi standing at the door unscathed.

[happy_daiz]

Joy Divison wrote...
Just shed that clunky armor.  You know you want to

Tempting! If only I could use mods (I'm on 360), and the light armor choices weren't so awful. I keep thinking I'm going to pick up one of my stealthy assassin/thief characters with light armor, but after wearing heavy, I just can't.

I loves me some Daedric armor.  I just got my smithing up high enough to craft it last night for my Orc. Hooray!

The Nightingale armor is the only light armor I can stand, aside from Linwe's armor (sleeveless version of TG standard issue). I kind of liked the studded armor, but the guards kept commenting on it being bandit armor, or something to that effect.

Modifié par happy_daiz, 03 février 2012 - 05:40 .

[Elhanan]

Yrkoon wrote...

Enemies have decent 'lateral movement' in skyrim. That is to say, they move side-to-side quickly, and thus can in fact, dodge player attacks especially if that player happens to not have fast finger reflexes (yes, I'm talking to you, Elhanan. You've admitted you don't about 5 times on this thread).

But to claim that the quick dodging is something exclusive to the Enemy is just plain false. ANYONE who's mastered the controls in this game, can do the exact same movements that those Pyromancers and Dragon priests do. Don't let the simple combat in Skyrim lull you into thinking there isn't another level of mastery at play here. There IS. You'd be SURPRIZED at what an Xbox Whiz kid can do in Skyrim with his controller.

No surprises, and it was not lateral movement as they were headed towards the Dragon; not my hidden archer.

Not false either; simply unconfirmed like Storm Call Shout.

I readily admit I am Twitchless; reason I prefer Stealth and Archery thus far over melee weaponry. While this may be unique to me on the forums, it seems another has also listed the issue on the Wikia:

When shooting someone while sneaking and unnoticed they may 'dodge' your arrow by sidestepping it at an extreme pace. (PC, Xbox 360 and PS3)

No; it was not me, and I do not know how to play either console game. So while not witnessed and experienced by others here does not make this fact any less truthful .However, It does somewhat reveal the character of those that dismiss such things so quickly.

Modifié par Elhanan, 03 février 2012 - 05:42 .

[Haplose]

This could be be an issue of "server lag" - even though it's not a multiplayer game. But sometimes it seems characters are not exactly where they seem to be and later warp to compensate (something I've frequently seen in NWN games, especially in multiplayer of course). Or maybe I'm just imagining things.

[Joy Divison]

happy_daiz wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...
Just shed that clunky armor.  You know you want to

Tempting! If only I could use mods (I'm on 360), and the light armor choices weren't so awful. I keep thinking I'm going to pick up one of my stealthy assassin/thief characters with light armor, but after wearing heavy, I just can't.

I loves me some Daedric armor.  I just got my smithing up high enough to craft it last night for my Orc. Hooray!

The Nightingale armor is the only light armor I can stand, aside from Linwe's armor (sleeveless version of TG standard issue). I kind of liked the studded armor, but the guards kept commenting on it being bandit armor, or something to that effect.

Light armor definitely did not receive enough love.  I am generally lazy when it comes to looking for mods so my current warrior is going the mage-armor route.

There is a certain satisfaction to killing dragons in virtually lingerie and it does help with carrying capacity!

Modifié par Joy Divison, 03 février 2012 - 05:59 .

[Addai]

Elhanan wrote...
Try using a Shout when a Dragon is not attacking, and watch the guards play Hide & Seek fairly well. This may depend on the specific Shout and location; uncertain. But having one walk up to warn you that you are disturbing the peace while concealed is a little less than immersive while playing a Stealth role. IMO.

Maybe I'm not understanding you, but if you shout, you're not concealed anymore.  Stealth depends on sound as well as sight.  Or do you mean your bar is indicating "hidden" and guards still know where you are?

Did Calixto run from the marketplace? Was it during the day; not at night as predicted? Did anyone else note the criminal act like the Forsworn in Markarth? My game did....

We're talking about if enemies can flee faster than the player can run, aren't we?  I'm confused.

I also have killed prisoners behind bars; Runes work well when left partially inside the cell. My task in Riftin was not to directly kill Sippi which may be easy enough if he is non-essential, but to try various methods in which another kills him, or he causes his own death. I tried Mark of Death as a test, and it may have disturbed some placeables, but left Sippi standing at the door unscathed.

Mark of Death doesn't do anything but lower enemy resistances.  Again, I'm not sure what you're getting at.  If you're arguing that there aren't glitches and unpredictable things in the game, there's no argument.  If you're saying that as a rule enemy AI is a cheating cheater and the player is always at a disadvantage, I'm going to disagree with that.

[Yrkoon]

Elhanan wrote...
So while not witnessed and experienced by others here does not make this fact any less truthful .However, It does somewhat reveal the character of those that dismiss such things so quickly.

Yeah, it means  our collective experiences  of the game's basic gameplay differ from yours.  Which is fine.  But  I'm  not  sure  what our  "character" has to do with any of this  (beyond  being your thinly veiled attempt at insulting us)


BTW, that  Wiki quote you posted is discussing a BUG.  (copied directly from the Bugs section)  And like I said, I have no desire to  discuss the details of game mechanics with someone who's  basing their entire argument  on a bug.  Would you like us to do the same thing the next time you come in here and gush  your orgasmic praise toward's  DA2's craptastic combat and story?  Because we certainly can do that. 

Modifié par Yrkoon, 03 février 2012 - 06:39 .

[happy_daiz]

Joy Divison wrote...
Light armor definitely did not receive enough love.  I am generally lazy when it comes to looking for mods so my current warrior is going the mage-armor route.

There is a certain satisfaction to killing dragons in virtually lingerie and it does help with carrying capacity!

No, it certainly didn't. That glass armor was . Dragonscale actually wasn't that bad (I did like the helmet in that set), but Dragonplate was just as bad as glass, if not worse. I had hopes for Savior's Hide, but that's not really to my liking, either. But alas, I digress.

You just reminded me - I was contemplating enchanting some of the Vaermina robes in my pure mage playthrough, and using those...that might have been just the push I needed to get back into that playthrough. Thanks! Galadriel the Altmer will live another day.

[Elhanan]

Addai67 wrote...

Maybe I'm not understanding you, but if you shout, you're not concealed anymore.  Stealth depends on sound as well as sight.  Or do you mean your bar is indicating "hidden" and guards still know where you are?

We're talking about if enemies can flee faster than the player can run, aren't we?  I'm confused.

Mark of Death doesn't do anything but lower enemy resistances.  Again, I'm not sure what you're getting at.  If you're arguing that there aren't glitches and unpredictable things in the game, there's no argument.  If you're saying that as a rule enemy AI is a cheating cheater and the player is always at a disadvantage, I'm going to disagree with that.

* Yes; the Guard will come over and ask that you cease Shouting; makes folks nervous or some such banter. And I was back under full Stealth again; hidden cursor in view.

* Calixto was seen running from the marketplace in Windhelm headed towards Candlehearth Hall. The speed of the compass quest arrow is what caught my eye, as the normal charcters do not run. He was already in the murder hole by the time I arrived by a shorter route. The next time this occured, he killed a lass in broad daylight while making a purchase at one of the stalls, then flees. I was able to follow more closely on this occasion by using a full sprint, and caught him in the house as before.

* Curious; MoD has sapped the life of some victims in my game (eg; Harrald in Riftin). But in Sippi's case, not even a puple hue.

[Elhanan]

Yrkoon wrote...

Yeah, it means  our collective experiences  of the game's basic gameplay differ from yours.  Which is fine.  But  I'm  not  sure  what our  "character" has to do with any of this  (beyond  being your thinly veiled attempt at insulting us)

BTW, that  Wiki quote you posted is discussing a BUG.  (copied directly from the Bugs section)  And like I said, I have no desire to  discuss the details of game mechanics with someone who's  basing their entire argument  on a bug.  Would you like us to do the same thing the next time you come in here and gush  your orgasmic praise toward's  DA2's craptastic combat and story?  Because we certainly can do that. 

Unrepaired Bug or not (it is still extant in the game), someone wrote this:

"But to claim that the quick dodging is something exclusive to the Enemy is just plain false."

Guess they were wrong, but are evidently not going to own up to the statement; indicates a lack of class to me.

As for DA2, a superior story, writing, and characters. For Skyrim; better mechanics and Character Creation. Flail away....

[BigEvil]

I've also gotten the bug where enemies dodge arrows fired by my hidden character. It hasn't happened a lot but I've certainly had it a few times. It's even more annoying when you're a long distance away, and they are facing in the opposite direction. I've even had them sidestep a first arrow when I'm using the slow-mo archery. It's quite amusing to see them slowly sidestep and watch your arrow glide harmlessly past their head.

I'm currently working on my Argonian DB assassin. He needs to level one-handed quite a bit before I feel he can continue with the DB quests without getting spotted every time he tries to assassinate someone. His stealth is fine, it's just being able to do enough damage to kill the targets with one hit. Oh well, off to find more bandits to 'practice' on.

[Doctalen]

Anyone watch Robbaz? He's got some good skyrim vids.  

Modifié par Doctalen, 03 février 2012 - 06:53 .

[Yrkoon]

Elhanan wrote...


* Calixto was seen running from the marketplace in Windhelm headed towards Candlehearth Hall. The speed of the compass quest arrow is what caught my eye, as the normal charcters do not run. He was already in the murder hole by the time I arrived by a shorter route. The next time this occured, he killed a lass in broad daylight while making a purchase at one of the stalls, then flees. I was able to follow more closely on this occasion by using a full sprint, and caught him in the house as before.
 

<gag>

^see, this is precisely the type of Goalpost moving  nonsense I was talking about.

Your initial claim  (and this whole discussion), was about ENEMIES being able to do in combat  what your character cannot.    Yet Somehow, between then and now, you decided to SHIFT the discussion and change your claim.   You're now citing   scripted, non-combat events  involving non-enemies.

I'm sick of your dishonest debating Elhanan.  Your initial claim was BS and you know it.  Which is why you're no longer peddling it.

Elhanan wrote...

Unrepaired Bug or not (it is still extant in the game), someone wrote this:

"But to claim that the quick dodging is something exclusive to the Enemy is just plain false."

Guess they were wrong, but are evidently not going to own up to the statement; indicates a lack of class to me.

Nope. they're not wrong.   My character can quickly  dodge arrows, just like the enemy can.  Can't yours?

Modifié par Yrkoon, 03 février 2012 - 07:06 .

[Addai]

virumor wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I posted some rambly lore thoughts about Talos on my tumblr.  Would be interested to hear if any of you have thoughts on it, since some of you are much more versed in the lore than I am.

That cycle of destruction is only true for the Shivering Isles. Mundus being remade numerous times doesn't make any sense at all, unless the established monomyth is completely wrong and the gibberish of Mankar Camoran in Oblivion (Lorkhan being a Daedra, Nirn being a Daedric realm) is true. 

Well, that's what it says.  That much at least is pretty plain from the correspondence.  Did you read it?  Maybe there's something I missed.

Aedra becoming Daedra doesn't make sense either, since they're antipodal in their very nature. Peryite was likely linked to Akatosh because Peryite is always depicted as a dragon. 

Daedra become aedra.  Daedra are just the gods who were in creation but not active in making it happen, right?  Apparently they work to make the next creation happen.

Also, Lorkhan appearing as an avatar to defend humanity is pretty common throughout the history of Tamriel. Talos just merged with him. Dovahkiin is not in any way remarkable or special compared to previous heroes. Sure, he or she saved the world from being "eaten", but the impact is far lessened considering Alduin is never really shown in the game as truly threatening or powerful, he's just another generic dragon with a different skin that eats souls in Sovngarde (which is a good thing in my book, if cowards like Ulfric are able to end up over there). 

In previous games, I killed gods and defeated Daedric Princes.

We don't really know yet everything the Dragonborn will end up doing.  The Hero of Cyrodiil wasn't anything but Martin Septim's sidekick until Shivering Isles.  Regardless of how Alduin is shown in the game, in the lore he must be pretty powerful.  Although I guess he is more the messenger of the "triadic gods", or the antecessor as it says in these letters.

[Elhanan]

Yrkoon wrote...

^see, this is precisely the type of Goalpost moving  nonsense you were doing before.

Your initial claim  (and this whole discussion), was about ENEMIES being able to do in combat  what your character cannot.    Yet Somehow, between then and now, you decided to SHIFT the discussion and change your claim.   You're now citing   scripted, non-combat events  involving non-enemies.

I'm sick of your dishonest debating Elhanan.  Your initial claim was BS and you know it.  Which is why you're no longer peddling it.

Was answering a specific question; not debating.

And I am not the expert on fertilizer as some apparently are....