37007 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Every time I hear people criticize the dungeons for linearity what I hear is that people just love a lot of backtracking, invisible walls and blind corridors. That's insane.

[AventuroLegendary]

Addai67 wrote...

Every time I hear people criticize the dungeons for linearity what I hear is that people just love a lot of backtracking, invisible walls and blind corridors. That's insane.

Or The Void.
*Shudders*

[Elhanan]

I rather enjoy Frostflow Lighthouse, esp as the included story is more vivid here than some other locations. And for the feeling of non-linerity, the ruins of Nchuand-Zel spring to mind, as well as that monstrous Museum in Morkath.

Again, I enjoy these Skyrim layouts; do not miss the mazes and monsters of Etch-A-Sketch past. And I have over 35+ yrs of gaming experience from which to compare.

[bussinrounds]

LegendaryAvenger wrote...

To be fair, the only problem with the dungeons is the linearity. Everything else about the dungeons is awesome. I'll take these hand-crafted dungeons over Oblivion and Daggerfall's "Complex" copy-and-paste dungeons.

Oblivions dungeons were complex ? 

  Wow, Skyrims linear dungeons really screwed up ppl perspectives I see.

[AventuroLegendary]

bussinrounds wrote...

LegendaryAvenger wrote...

To be fair, the only problem with the dungeons is the linearity. Everything else about the dungeons is awesome. I'll take these hand-crafted dungeons over Oblivion and Daggerfall's "Complex" copy-and-paste dungeons.

Oblivions dungeons were complex ?

  Wow, Skyrims linear dungeons really screwed up ppl perspectives I see.

*Shrugs* The most complex dungeon I can think of was the sewers to the Imperial palace. God, I loved that questline. But, take away Oblivion then. Go and download Daggerfall and see how much you love backtracking, rushing, searching, and pretty much raging looking for one small potion for some unnamed questgiver in some forsaken, randomly-generated dungeon. 
It's better this way in Skyrim.

Modifié par LegendaryAvenger, 17 février 2012 - 11:22 .

[Addai]

bussinrounds wrote...
Oblivions dungeons were complex ?

  Wow, Skyrims linear dungeons really screwed up ppl perspectives I see.

A poster on the previous page was complaining about Skyrim's linearity vs. Oblivion's "more complex" dungeons.

[Doctalen]

I'm jelly of you PC guys with the steam workshop mod center

[AventuroLegendary]

Doctalen wrote...

I'm jelly of you PC guys with the steam workshop mod center

Console Skyrim is better than no Skyrim at all 

[Addai]

I'm thinking I'll get rid of that More NPCs mod myself. It makes travel more interesting and gives you pitched battles, but they don't make a lot of sense so it's sort of a carnival thing as opposed to meaningful. Other than the big Forsworn battle outside Windhelm, we then ran into bandits attacking at the Windhelm gates. Some guards got involved so it was fun in a way, but it simply made no sense that a bunch of dumb bandits would be storming the walls of a fortified city.

[AventuroLegendary]

Addai67 wrote...

I'm thinking I'll get rid of that More NPCs mod myself. It makes travel more interesting and gives you pitched battles, but they don't make a lot of sense so it's sort of a carnival thing as opposed to meaningful. Other than the big Forsworn battle outside Windhelm, we then ran into bandits attacking at the Windhelm gates. Some guards got involved so it was fun in a way, but it simply made no sense that a bunch of dumb bandits would be storming the walls of a fortified city.

It wouldn't make any sense if a bunch of dumb bandits charged at a vicious-looking Sorcerer with eyes red, hands casting fire and in full Daedric gear, or a bunch of dumb raiders to charge at a figure in power armor with a Fatman aimed at them. Bethesda...

[bussinrounds]

LegendaryAvenger wrote...

bussinrounds wrote...

LegendaryAvenger wrote...

To be fair, the only problem with the dungeons is the linearity. Everything else about the dungeons is awesome. I'll take these hand-crafted dungeons over Oblivion and Daggerfall's "Complex" copy-and-paste dungeons.

Oblivions dungeons were complex ?

  Wow, Skyrims linear dungeons really screwed up ppl perspectives I see.

*Shrugs* The most complex dungeon I can think of was the sewers to the Imperial palace. God, I loved that questline. But, take away Oblivion then. Go and download Daggerfall and see how much you love backtracking, rushing, searching, and pretty much raging looking for one small potion for some unnamed questgiver in some forsaken, randomly-generated dungeon. 
It's better this way in Skyrim.

Screw the radomly generated dungeons of Daggerfall.

Some games with good dungeons ...

Durlag's Tower in BG
Watchers Keep in Throne of Bhaal
underground sections in the first two Gothics
Might and Magic Mandate of Heaven, World of Xeen and Dark Messiah
Wizardry games, In #IV: The Return of Werdna had the 'Cosmic Cube', Wizardry 7 & 8
Fallout (the Glow) Fallout 2 - Sierra Army Depot
Arcanum (the Vendigroth ruins)
Icewind Dale 1 (severed hand & Dragon Eye)
Lands of Lore
Realms of Arkania games (especially Star Trail)
Ultima 5 (the underworld) and Ultima Underworld 1 & 2
Arx Fatalis
Dark Heart of Uukrul
Underground sections in STALKER
Temple of Elemental Evil
Telengard, Sword of Fargoal, and Death Castle in Ultima 3
Ultima 5: Lazarus had some awesome dungeons, especially the Underworld

[Giggles_Manically]

Skyrim's dungeons are at least interesting and not EXACTLY the same like so many were in Oblivion.

[Snowship]

side-rooms does not make a less linear dungeon, and a twisting path doesn't make it complex either.
If it has one entrance and one exit then it's linear. (even if it has a couple of both I'd still call it linear)

just my opinion

[Eurypterid]

Meh, I don't care so much about linear and non-linear (and just for the record, I find that most of the dungeons in Skyrim so far are very linear). What I care about is if they're fun. So far, I've found there's a significant fun factor to them, so it's all good as far as I'm concerned.

[Haplose]

Addai67 wrote...

Every time I hear people criticize the dungeons for linearity what I hear is that people just love a lot of backtracking, invisible walls and blind corridors. That's insane.

Nah. It just makes no sense for me that the boss/quest target/loot/word wall is pretty much always at the very end of a linear passage. What about other rooms and their meaning? What home/castle is designed like that? Let's take the throne room. Usually that's hardly the last room you get access to. This was really nice in BG series. You could visit different houses, rooms, etc. But the target wasn't always at the end.
And what's with the secret passages - where pretty much all of them lead from the end of the dungeon to the very beginning. Was secret access to other places never needed? It's fine for some of the dungeons. But if more then 90% are like this, then something is wrong. This design is simply not logical and somewhat breaks the suspension of disbelief for me.

[Chromie]

bussinrounds wrote...


Ultima 5: Lazarus had some awesome dungeons, especially the Underworld

Ultima brings a tear to my eye I was playing Ultima 4 just a couple of days ago 


I do find the Skyrim dungeons linear but I definitely prefer them over Oblivions. I guess you have to download some dungeons of Nexus if you want something non-linear.

Modifié par Ringo12, 18 février 2012 - 01:33 .

[Addai]

Haplose wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Every time I hear people criticize the dungeons for linearity what I hear is that people just love a lot of backtracking, invisible walls and blind corridors. That's insane.

Nah. It just makes no sense for me that the boss/quest target/loot/word wall is pretty much always at the very end of a linear passage. What about other rooms and their meaning? What home/castle is designed like that? Let's take the throne room. Usually that's hardly the last room you get access to. This was really nice in BG series. You could visit different houses, rooms, etc. But the target wasn't always at the end.
And what's with the secret passages - where pretty much all of them lead from the end of the dungeon to the very beginning. Was secret access to other places never needed? It's fine for some of the dungeons. But if more then 90% are like this, then something is wrong. This design is simply not logical and somewhat breaks the suspension of disbelief for me.

The passages aren't linear.  The word walls are sometimes out in the open, not only in dungeons.  I really don't see the complaint here.

As for the "secret passages," that's exactly what I'm talking about- you're asking to have the dungeons built so that you have to backtrack all the way back through to get out.  No, thank you.  That's one nod to playability that I'm glad for.  Exploration is only good when it's meaningful.

[Barbarossa2010]

I went to every word wall when I did my console playthrough, using the Greybeard's as my guide. Many of them are just plain out in the open, or wedged discreetly (and some not so discreetly) in a nook of a mountain pass, or sitting on the side of a mountain with a dragon guardian (or no guardian). The randomness was actually a positive in my view. There was no set "grind/kill the thralls/kill the boss/here's your word" nonsense.

I remember the Word Wall above Ysgramor's tomb could be accessed if you just followed a certain ridgeline up the hill, completely bypassing having to even enter the tomb. There were several others that were out in the open, but teased you because they were just out of reach by a barely insurmountable obstacle, and forced you into entering certain areas to reach them.

Yeah, I'm not really getting the criticism here. But opinions are like...

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 18 février 2012 - 02:20 .

[Barbarossa2010]

Addai67 wrote...

I'm thinking I'll get rid of that More NPCs mod myself. It makes travel more interesting and gives you pitched battles, but they don't make a lot of sense so it's sort of a carnival thing as opposed to meaningful. Other than the big Forsworn battle outside Windhelm, we then ran into bandits attacking at the Windhelm gates. Some guards got involved so it was fun in a way, but it simply made no sense that a bunch of dumb bandits would be storming the walls of a fortified city.

"Carnival" is exactly it.  "Cartoon" is probably closer to the truth, but they do become quite monotonous after a while.  I'll uninstall it when I get tired of it.  Not quite there yet.  Many of the encounters are absolutely ridiculous and obviously just for combat, and fit nowhere into the environment of Skyrim.  But having said that, I do see a preponderance of Imperials near Solitude and obviously more Stormcloaks in the East.  I saw two squads of Stormcloaks (I counted 17) patrolling the woods outside of Windhelm though.  Just one of those strange things I hadn't seen yet in over (what?) 500 hours.

[Elhanan]

As Yrkoon mentioned, for those that want gargantuan sized complexes, there is Blackreach

Now I am one that takes the immediate path; the linear choice, but this is my preference. Many here have already mentioned the enjoyable time spent seeing the various buildings, opponents, flora and fauna of this subterrainian cavern.

As mentioned, there is something in Skyrim for everyone, if they actually wish to see it.

Modifié par Elhanan, 18 février 2012 - 02:26 .

[Barbarossa2010]

LegendaryAvenger wrote...

Doctalen wrote...

I'm jelly of you PC guys with the steam workshop mod center

Console Skyrim is better than no Skyrim at all 

Agreed.  I spent 420 hours on my 360 playing.  A great experience.

But this playthrough on PC, well...it's truly a different experience.  Screenshots, dramatically quicker loading screens, sharper graphics, smoother movement...and then the Workshop.  It's just a whole different game, and a helluva lot of fun, just browsing and testing mods. 

[Addai]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

"Carnival" is exactly it.  "Cartoon" is probably closer to the truth, but they do become quite monotonous after a while.  I'll uninstall it when I get tired of it.  Not quite there yet.  Many of the encounters are absolutely ridiculous and obviously just for combat, and fit nowhere into the environment of Skyrim.  But having said that, I do see a preponderance of Imperials near Solitude and obviously more Stormcloaks in the East.  I saw two squads of Stormcloaks (I counted 17) patrolling the woods outside of Windhelm though.  Just one of those strange things I hadn't seen yet in over (what?) 500 hours.

I just ran into a huge pack of bandits, and it was not going well for us so I ended up cheesing a bit- got up on a rock they couldn't get to and started casting Fury.  That had me LOL'ing, then I see some guy fighting on our side who turned out to be Talsgar the Wanderer.  This went on for a bit and suddenly these dudes in good steel armor come running up and start in on the bandits, too.  I was wondering who they were and it turns out they were Hired Thugs sent to attack me- the bandits took care of them for me.    It was all quite epic and hilarious in the end.

Modifié par Addai67, 18 février 2012 - 02:32 .

[bussinrounds]

Ringo12 wrote...

bussinrounds wrote...


Ultima 5: Lazarus had some awesome dungeons, especially the Underworld

Ultima brings a tear to my eye I was playing Ultima 4 just a couple of days ago 


I do find the Skyrim dungeons linear but I definitely prefer them over Oblivions. I guess you have to download some dungeons of Nexus if you want something non-linear.

  How's this for ya ?  www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par bussinrounds, 18 février 2012 - 02:35 .

[Brockololly]

Addai67 wrote...
As for the "secret passages," that's exactly what I'm talking about- you're asking to have the dungeons built so that you have to backtrack all the way back through to get out.  No, thank you.  That's one nod to playability that I'm glad for.  Exploration is only good when it's meaningful.

I absolutely LOVE the secret passageways out of the dungeons. The fact that they're actually secret passages built into the dungeons makes them even better- its not like you're just warping out of the dungeon as soon as you get to the end. They're naturally built in to the environment.

Modifié par Brockololly, 18 février 2012 - 02:35 .

[Barbarossa2010]

Brockololly wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
As for the "secret passages," that's exactly what I'm talking about- you're asking to have the dungeons built so that you have to backtrack all the way back through to get out.  No, thank you.  That's one nod to playability that I'm glad for.  Exploration is only good when it's meaningful.

I absolutely LOVE the secret passageways out of the dungeons. The fact that they're actually secret passages built into the dungeons makes them even better- its not like you're just warping out of the dungeon as soon as you get to the end. They're naturally built in to the environment.

Right.  I was just in a spider/Falmer cave, and there were three different routes to get to the "end."  One was straight through. One was underwater (and terribly claustrophobic) and you had to swim the entire way (I have no waterbreathing aid as of yet so had to backtrack and take a different route), and the other was a combination of both.  Dwemer Ruins are, in and of themselves awesome.  Mzinchaleft and several others have mutliple elevator lifts in and out and several entrances.  You can't even get to Blackreach, without traversing a ruin and then you exit on a lift that opens another entrance in if you want to go back.  Labyrinthian is an absolutely incredible ruin with a number of branches, separate rooms and mazes.

I've been in over 175 of them (at least my stats say I've "cleared" that many, so the number is probably much higher) and "linearity" or "sameness" has not even crossed my mind, in fact the opposite is true for me, having been in more dungeons, ruins, caves, barrows, crypts and s#!+holes than I can keep name track of.  I just found several new caves on this new playthrough that I'd missed prior, and two of them were breathtaking, not "Blackreach breathtaking" mind you, but huge nonetheless, with multiple routes in and out.  So again, I'm not really getting the criticism.

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 18 février 2012 - 03:00 .