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[Yrkoon]

bussinrounds wrote...

  I look for some complexity in my dungeons. 

I look for atmosphere in mine.

Silly little mazes where traversing from Point A to point B  is a friggin   mapping mini game in itself, is not my idea of a good dungeon.  A good dungeon should immerse you, not... make you get out a piece of paper  and start drawing lines to try and "solve" the path puzzle.    It should have the right mix of  terrain variety, visuals, audio, lighting, enemy placement, and perhaps a point  (a story).


Forelhost is an example of a great dungeon in Skyrim because it's large and it has all of the above.  Open  cavernous area?  Check.   Winding narrow paths AND wide foreboding corridors?  Check.  Dual-leveled areas?  Check.  Story?  Check.  Atmosphere?  Dripping with it.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 18 février 2012 - 03:47 .

[Yrkoon]

  My apologies for dwelling too much on this, folks, but since  I've said about a million times on this thread that Skyrim's dungeons are the flat out BEST thing about the entire game, this issue attracts me like flies to  sh*t.

bussinrounds wrote...

Durlag's Tower in BG
Watchers Keep in Throne of Bhaal

Durlag's tower in BG1 is not awesome because of its complexity  (because it's not complex at all, it's just as linear  and  straight foward as any standard dungeon in  Skyrim).  Durlag's tower is awesome because of its story and atmosphere.

And Watcher's Keep?  Are you serious?  Watcher's keep is what happens when Level designers  come to work when they're still on their acid trips.   Let's decontruct watcher's keep.

-it consists of 5 levels.  This sounds awesome on its face.  But those 5 levels are perfect circles  (there's no corridors or directional paths  at all, just side rooms encircling a main center room area where you go can go up, or down, or out of the dungeon.   Enter  level one, walk in a circle. then decend to level 2, walk in a circle, then level 3, do the same, then 4,  same,  then go to level 5 and deal with Demogorgon.  Then you're done) 


-Each level has its own crazy theme.  Some people love this.  I don't.  especially when its done 5 times in one dungeon.  It just kills the mood for me.    Or should I say, it Forces me to change my mood 5 times

Personally, when it comes to Dungeons in BG2:ToB, I prefer Sendai's enclave.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 18 février 2012 - 03:55 .

[bussinrounds]

   I'm not saying complexity is the ONLY thing. I like a nice atmosphere too, (who doesn't) and a story behind it is good, but when it's too simplified and linear, is just a big turn off to me. Much like level scaling is.

It's great when you had to map it out with the graph paper. And screwing it up, getting lost...Good times.

Now they have a button you press and a line shows you the exit, right ?  As if that's even necessary.

Modifié par bussinrounds, 18 février 2012 - 04:09 .

[Yrkoon]

Yeah, I had to use  graph paper to map out Rubicon in Planescape: torment. And that was a Dungeon intentionally designed to bore you to tears (it was created by modrons, who are emotionless, logical machine-people)

I think the issue here is 2-fold.

1) 'simplified' is too subjective a term. I seriously don't see Skyrim's Dwemer ruins or its larger Draugir crypts as overly simplistic at all. Are they linear? For the most part, Yes. But that doesn't automatically translate to simplistic. You can still get lost in Labrynthian or Afthand due to their layouts alone. Make no mistake about that.

2) Dungeons are a game *setting*, lest we forget. Settings are not supposed to 'confuse' you. They're supposed to  be the background of game play. If they're overly complex, then they've failed their purpose.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 18 février 2012 - 04:12 .

[bussinrounds]

It's all subjective. There can be all types of 'settings'. Maybe I like getting confused a little and having to work it out.  Some (most) ppl like just being along for the smooth ride.

Modifié par bussinrounds, 18 février 2012 - 04:21 .

[Addai]

bussinrounds wrote...
It's great when you had to map it out with the graph paper. And screwing it up, getting lost...Good times.

Yeah... no.

I guess I'm the casual gamer who ruined your gaming universe, because that does not sound fun and I wouldn't play it.

Speaking of word walls not being in the same location every time, only on my 3rd game did I discover the word wall tucked in a non-descript pit in Ustengrav.  *facepalm*

[AventuroLegendary]

bussinrounds wrote...

LegendaryAvenger wrote...

bussinrounds wrote...

LegendaryAvenger wrote...

To be fair, the only problem with the dungeons is the linearity. Everything else about the dungeons is awesome. I'll take these hand-crafted dungeons over Oblivion and Daggerfall's "Complex" copy-and-paste dungeons.

Oblivions dungeons were complex ?

  Wow, Skyrims linear dungeons really screwed up ppl perspectives I see.

*Shrugs* The most complex dungeon I can think of was the sewers to the Imperial palace. God, I loved that questline. But, take away Oblivion then. Go and download Daggerfall and see how much you love backtracking, rushing, searching, and pretty much raging looking for one small potion for some unnamed questgiver in some forsaken, randomly-generated dungeon. 
It's better this way in Skyrim.

Screw the radomly generated dungeons of Daggerfall.

Some games with good dungeons ...
*Snip*

Ahhhhh the memories. Especially with Fallout 2. The TNT solution to the rock problem in the outpost was memorable 
But my point is that, Complexity isn't always a good thing and linearity isn't always a bad thing. With Skyrim's dungeons, I can take in all of the sights and riddles without mapping out routes.
Also, Daggerfall DID have a few good dungeons itself.

Modifié par LegendaryAvenger, 18 février 2012 - 04:31 .

[bussinrounds]

Addai67 wrote...

bussinrounds wrote...
It's great when you had to map it out with the graph paper. And screwing it up, getting lost...Good times.

Yeah... no.

I guess I'm the casual gamer who ruined your gaming universe, because that does not sound fun and I wouldn't play it.

Speaking of word walls not being in the same location every time, only on my 3rd game did I discover the word wall tucked in a non-descript pit in Ustengrav.  *facepalm*

That's why they make these games so everyone can enjoy them now.  Not just the old school rpg fans.

[Elhanan]

Unless there are pits, teleporters, shifting walls, etc, it was taught long ago that when one enters a maze, pick Left or Right, and stick with that direction as your guideline. While I use personal modifiers (eg; clear a current floor before ascending or descending to a new one), this works brilliantly, and generally aids in staying on track to completion.

It also helps eliminate the need for mapping; after all, that is what walkthroughs are for....

[bussinrounds]

Walkthroughs are for ****es.

 Wow, didnt realize you can't say female dogs.

Modifié par bussinrounds, 18 février 2012 - 05:21 .

[Yrkoon]

...And second-playthru completionists.

[Elhanan]

And perhaps to those that attempt to play efficiently. But in this case, I was attempting to be a little humerous.

I know I love the Skyrim Wikia, as it helps prevent playing with Bugs, often has lists of notable loot, and contains answers for a myriad of subjects. But while it does have maps to dungeons, I cannot recall it having maps of a dungeon.

But I recall with glee looking at maps to some old Gold Box games in order to actually complete one, and discover what happened in the other after encountering a game stopping glitch (ie; Pool of Radiance).

And while one is entitled to an opinion, it is often only worthy of note if it is an informed one. Seeing that the so called expert of canines is also holding the perspective that Skyrim dungeons are not good; not complex enough for their tastes, I offer the Wikia as evidence against such belief. And I contend that such taste seems to be an aquired one based on porcelain thrones....

[Doctalen]

I slaughtered everyone in Farkarth a few hours ago as a werewolf. I tried big cities but to many non-killables.

[Haplose]

Doctalen wrote...

I slaughtered everyone in Farkarth a few hours ago as a werewolf. I tried big cities but to many non-killables.

Umm, congratulations?

Also there's a mod to turn of the essential status for NPCs if you're into this kinda thing.

[VaIorite]

My Amazon update!

[weedyfun]

Any PC players using the SkyUI mod? it's awesome!

[Jane Shepard]

SkyUI mod? What is it?

I wish there were mods that could allow to do something like this without any cheat codes...


I just love this screen very much

Modifié par Jane Shepard, 18 février 2012 - 03:46 .

[xxEvenstarxx]

Jane Shepard wrote...

SkyUI mod? What is it?

I wish there were mods that could allow to do something like this without any cheat codes...


I just love this screen very much

 I NEED a better pc so i can haz this game on it.......

[VaIorite]

Jane Shepard wrote...



I just love this screen very much

Vilkas is playing nice and at the same time he's trying to steal your sword.
Nice screen though!

[AventuroLegendary]

 I want to make my female characters a bit more... young but I don't want to end up with a bunch of barbie dolls. 

[Elhanan]

Here is a link to the SkyUI at the Nexus; also available thru Workshop:

http://skyrim.nexusm...ile.php?id=3863

And AFAIK, that Glamour Mod has several options for which versions are used, including one w/o make-up, I believe.

Modifié par Elhanan, 18 février 2012 - 04:40 .

[Doctalen]

Haplose wrote...

Doctalen wrote...

I slaughtered everyone in Farkarth a few hours ago as a werewolf. I tried big cities but to many non-killables.

Umm, congratulations?

Also there's a mod to turn of the essential status for NPCs if you're into this kinda thing.

I was up real late when I posted that. No idea why. I'm on sexbox so no mods. Still, some of these random people are non-kills. It's kinda annoying when half the city just takes a knee when you want to mess around. 

[Snowship]

maybe a repost but I'll just leave it here anyway- Nord Mead

[Haplose]

Doctalen wrote...

Haplose wrote...

Doctalen wrote...

I slaughtered everyone in Farkarth a few hours ago as a werewolf. I tried big cities but to many non-killables.

Umm, congratulations?

Also there's a mod to turn of the essential status for NPCs if you're into this kinda thing.

I was up real late when I posted that. No idea why. I'm on sexbox so no mods. Still, some of these random people are non-kills. It's kinda annoying when half the city just takes a knee when you want to mess around. 

Yes, it is. I really wanted to help Mjoll and destroy the Thieves Guild on my Orc warrior. Was pretty annoyed that I couldn't do anything to them.