37007 réponses à ce sujet

[Yrkoon]

Luc0s wrote...
There are no dungeons in The Witcher 2. The Witcher 2 is a completely different kind of game in that regards.

Aah, I see the problem now, it's not that you're intentionally spouting BS, you're just suffering from severe Amnesia.

What do you call the Harpy Lair in Chapter 2?  What do you call the cave  under the  Kaedwani camp?  What do you call the haunted Hospital near Flotsam?  What do you call the Dwarven catacombs in Vergen?

What do you call the   La Valette Dungeon that you have to escape from in the prologue?

[Yrkoon]

Luc0s wrote...


Oh really? And what does Skyrim give you? Draugrs... draugrs everywhere.
I fully admit that The Witcher 2 is quite limited when it comes to monster diversity, but STILL it's more diverse than Skyrim!

Nope, the beastiary  is quite a bit  larger in Skyrim.  Which is understandable, since the game itself  contains about 50x more content overall.

And The Witcher 2 doesn' reuse assets nearly as often as Skyrim, where every single dungeon is a f*cking draugr burial crypt with spiders, spider webs, burial urns and draugrs everywhere!  Well sure, you have Dwemer ruins too, but that's about it. We basically have just summed up all the "diversity" in Skyrim's dungeons. Draugr burial sites and Dwemer ruins... that's it... that's every dungeon in Skyrim!
 

Yep.  That's about it.


Well, except for Forts.  Bear Caves;  Troll caves;  Blackreach; Falmer dwellings;  Foresworn caves,  Foresworn dungeons, Foresworn camps,  Mines,   Riften's ratway; Vampire lairs;  Sovngarde; The Greybeard campus; The College of Winterhold; and the dungeon beneth it.   Oh and  the various Shipwrecks up north, or anything underwater.  Then we have the  major cities and their prisons, multi-leveled homes, castles, with dungeons.    Then there's the inside of Azura's star, and the inside of Mehrunes Dagon's shrine; Spriggin lairs,  and Giant camps.

And this, of course, is aside from the open air 'dungeons',  or "groves" which can contain just about anything from mages to wolves to ghosts to vampires,  to werewolves to spriggans.... and Dwemer runes, which you hilariously mention  in passing, as if those dungeons don't take up a huge HUGE chunk of the game itself

But then again, what are we comparing?   TW2 doesn't even HAVE dungeons, according to you

Modifié par Yrkoon, 18 mai 2012 - 11:27 .

[Yrkoon]

Luc0s wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Luc0s wrote...
There are no dungeons in The Witcher 2. The Witcher 2 is a completely different kind of game in that regards.

Aah, I see the problem now, it's not that you're intentionally spouting BS, you're just suffering from severe Amnesia.

What do you call the Harpy Lair in Chapter 2?  What do you call the cave  under the  Kaedwani camp?  What do you call the haunted Hospital near Flotsam?  What do you call the Dwarven catacombs in Vergen?

What do you call the   La Valette Dungeon that you have to escape from in the prologue?

Those are not typical dungeons in the traditional way of an RPG.

Stop with the inane BS.

I cited  a dungeon filled with undead,  a castle dungeon, a  dwarven mine, and a monster lair that houses the monster queen.   It doesn't get more traditionally cliche  than those 4.  Put down the bong, now.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 18 mai 2012 - 09:58 .

[Yrkoon]

Luc0s wrote...

Which proves my point, that cutscenes are a more succesful and more immersive medium of presenting a story.

Which is why  all of history's most celebrated books and stories  all have cutscenes in them.  Right?

 Cutscenes in video games are fine, when used  occasionally to enhance a story.   But they become a scourge  to the entire industry when they're used ALL THE TIME in order to make the story.

  Video games are meant to be Played, not watched.  if I want to watch a string of cutscenes, I'll rent a movie.    Hollywood does cutscenes  a lot better than the gaming industry, after all.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 18 mai 2012 - 10:30 .

[The Hierophant]

Quick question, when talking about the dungeons in Skyrim are they Draugr crypts only?

[Addai]

Luc0s wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I do admit that the wild wild internet makes obvious that most of the deeper story things and lore fly right over the heads of a lot of casual players.  For instance all the "Ulfric is a N*zi" opinions that are based solely on the one conversation you see when you first enter Windhelm.  People aren't digesting anything but the cutscenes.

Which proves my point, that cutscenes are a more succesful and more immersive medium of presenting a story.

No, just that the average media-addled person has the attention span of a gnat.  I'm talking about people who haven't played TES games before and just think the in-game books are loot to sell.  If they ever do actually read them, you hear the ooh's and aah's about how good they are on forum threads in Bethsoft forums.

Changing the medium to suit the lowest common denominator of casual player is recipe for a crap game.

[Elhanan]

Luc0s wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Sorry, but there is a wide diversity in Skyrim dungeons; almost to the point where I am able to tell in which one I am in by design and structure. And I am no Sherlock Holmes.

Nonsense, absolute nonsense.

Not only are plenty of dungeons reused several instances in Skyrim, they're all as linear as a ruler. Skyrim dungeons are the very definition of linearity.

Each Skyrim dungeon can be summarized like this: Go into dungeon, walk from A to B, defeat all enemies on the way, solve a simple puzzle that's designed for a 3 years old, defeat the boss of the dungeon, loot the items and pull a switch to create a hidden passage back to the entrance of the dungeon.

That accurately describes - EVERY - SINGLE - DUNGEON - in Skyrim.

To each their own, but after playing Skyrim for only 80 hours (10x less than you) I've not only seen every single unique dungeon there is, I've also seen the same dungeon layout being reused several times. And I've only played Skyrim for 80 hours or so!

I never mentioned linearity, but I actually prefer it personally. That said, not all are linear, as some may be approached in a few ways; one may be easily skipped altogether to gain the included Shout.

But they are diverse. Yrkoon has mentioned this many times in this very thread; the various puzzles, levers, lore, traps, etc that are different from  another, and that is only one other poster. Each has it's own flavor; even the Radiant quests are varied.

Sure; the round burial structures and possibly some other buildings are built the same based on the culture, but almost all have a varied approach, differing mechanisms, etc..

Landscape - as I understand, Skyrim is 16 square miles of territory. If there is any copy and pasting, it sure is hidden well. Perhaps another TES fan can give specifics, but this is my first such game.

Now I could care less about TW games; little appeal for me. But Skyrim has proven itself as a GOTY, as has DAO; simply for varied reasons. It is my hope to see both begin to blend a little with the other; not to lose what makes tham special, but to strive to become a better product, and perfection.

[Elhanan]

The Hierophant wrote...

Quick question, when talking about the dungeons in Skyrim are they Draugr crypts only?

Decent point. Skyrim offers a lot of varied hosts including these guardians; Undead, bandits, Hagravens, etc. Here is a deecent look at several of them:

http://elderscrolls....eatures_(Skyrim)

[The Hierophant]

Elhanan wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Quick question, when talking about the dungeons in Skyrim are they Draugr crypts only?

Decent point. Skyrim offers a lot of varied hosts including these guardians; Undead, bandits, Hagravens, etc. Here is a deecent look at several of them:

http://elderscrolls....eatures_(Skyrim)

So far i've been to alot of the caves, grottos, etc. Places like Eldergleam Sanctuary, Bloated Man's Grotto have variations in creatures and layout. The only places i can think of that look similiar are Draugr crypts even though they have different layouts.

[RedArmyShogun]

Plus when you build a type of building or such it tends to not differ much in the overall style. More so Crypts and fortifications. You seen one shipyard or bunker you've seen them all minus the layout. Its not like you'll walk into a 20 different versions of them. Uniformity tends to happen in most structures from the same time and Era, more so if its the same type.

[Yrkoon]

Luc0s wrote...
Is The Witcher your typical standard dungeon-delving RPG where delving into dungeons to gather loot and quest items is one of the main parts of the game? NO!

Yes?  Don't know  what game you're talking about, but in My copy of the Witcher 2, the Main story line most definitely DOES  see me delving into old dwarven ruins to gather stuff for the  advancement of the plot itself.  Or is there an alternate way to Cure Saskia that  doesn't involve   fetching Items from not one, but 2  dungeons?

 So YOU stop the insane BS. The Witcher 2 is an entirely different kind of game! So why did you bring up dungeons in The Witcher 2 at all? You and I both know that The Witcher 2 is not about that. So stop the BS yourself.

  Yay!  Subject changes for the win!

I believe we were discussing your drunken-stupor-induced  claim that TW2 doesn't have dungeons, and then  later, your amended, back-petal claim that it's got dungeons, but they're not the standard type that you see in other RPGs.

Though to your 3rd new point  (that the game itself isn't about its locations.  lulz), I will  counter that   by reminding you, again,  that the Dwarven mine in Vergen  (which I specifically cited) is actually, you know,  part of the main plot  As is the Dungeons of La Valette castle  (also mentioned).

So yeah, don't play us for fools.   Just because we're here in the Skyrim thread, doesn't mean we haven't  also Played the Witcher 2 to death, and  can easily  refute your bogus claims.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 19 mai 2012 - 12:06 .

[The Hierophant]

greengoron89 wrote...

You'll find Dwemer ruins to all be quite similar in architecture when you run into those - all stone, clockwork, and steam engines, with machine guardians and/or Falmer interspersed throughout the different areas.

I at least know that for a fact considering how meticulous the lore presented the Dwemer to be. What i'm trying to figure out is if the argument is between similiar architecture or copy pasted dungeons, ala DA2.

[Yrkoon]

Luc0s wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Which proves my point, that cutscenes are a more succesful and more immersive medium of presenting a story.

Which is why  all of history's most celebrated books and stories  all have cutscenes in them.  Right?

We're not talking about books, we're talking about dialogue in games v.s cutscenes in games. Stop trying to be witty, because you entirely miss the point and thus fail at it.

Bullsh*t.  Your sweeping generalization  made no such distinction.  We were talking about STORIES, and whether cutscenes make them "more successful" and "more immersive".  (your exact words)

Nice try, though!  <gag>

Yrkoon wrote...

 Cutscenes in video games are fine, when used  occasionally to enhance a story.   But they become a scourge  to the entire industry when they're used ALL THE TIME in order to make the story.

Cutscenes = story..

Nonsense.  Planescape: Torment, a game possessing perhaps the greatest story ever told in any mediium, contains.... 3 cutscenes.... in 60+ hours., and one of them is the epilogue.

But  even if it had 500 of them, the claim that "Cutscene = story"   is false  anyway.  Cutscenes are nothing more than a delivery system.  An easy one.  A lazy one.  designed for the  ADD-suffering casual gamer who doesn't like to read.... or think.  or use his imagination

Luc0s wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Video games are meant to be Played, not watched. 

I agree. But it just so happens to be that it's very hard to actually play a story. In fact, it's impossible to "play" a story in a video-game. A story is told, not played. A story is, after all, a recounting of a set string of events.

You don't play a story.  You play within a story's context.  Huge, HUGE difference.  Unless you're a DA2 fan, in which case, you don't do anything but play a story.  if even that.  I'd argue that you're not even playing the story in DA2.  You're just sitting there  getting pushed  through it by some invisible hand doing everything for you behind the scenes, and occasionally throwing you a meaningless task to make you feel as if you're  in control of the narrative..

Modifié par Yrkoon, 19 mai 2012 - 12:20 .

[RedArmyShogun]

Lol Luc0s just stop, you sound like a huge fan boy.

[Addai]

Luc0s wrote...

Cutscenes = story.

*choke*

No.  And they're not "deep," either.

So if you want to get a story across in a video-game, you have to resort to mediums that are actually build specifically to tell stories, like theatrics, movies or books. That's why old video-games back in the 80's had their story written down in the manual (e.g. books) of the game and that's why today's modern games tell their stories through cutscenes (e.g. theatrics / movies).

Stories aren't told in writing, painting or conversation?  I guess no one ever told a story in the history of mankind before there was camera and film.

You're missing the whole point of Skyrim's dungeons, BTW.  Most of them- almost all the locations in Skyrim- tell stories of their own.  What the heck have you been doing while you were playing?  Not paying attention, by the sounds of it.

[Yrkoon]

Luc0s wrote...

No, YOU brought up the subject of dungeons in The Witcher 2 (I don't know why). Then I told you that The Witcher 2 doesn't have your typical RPG dungeon-delving

No, you actually said THIS

Luc0s wrote...
There are no dungeons in The Witcher 2. The Witcher 2 is a completely different kind of game in that regards.

<gag> Enough with the dishonest debating already.

Luc0s wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Yes?  Don't know  what game you're talking about, but in My copy of the Witcher 2, the Main story line most definitely DOES  see me delving into old dwarven ruins to gather stuff for the  advancement of the plot itself.  Or is there an alternate way to Cure Saskia that  doesn't involve   fetching Items from not one, but 2  dungeons?

That's like 1 tiny part of the game.

You mean it's part of the main plot.

And what's this "it's only a tiny part of the game"  crap you keep responding with?  Show me ANY dungeon in Skyrim  and I'll show you a tiny part of the game.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 19 mai 2012 - 12:31 .