37007 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Luc0s wrote...

It's not lazy. Making cutscenes takes more work than simply letting your NPCs tell the player what happened. THAT'S lazy.

Games like Skyrim only TELL you what happened, through dialogue.

No they don't.  You don't get it.  Go back to TES 101.  The main part of the storytelling is done through the environment and I don't just mean conversations.

Example- there's a dungeon where you meet a ghost who leads you through the crypts.  The ghost never speaks.  He leads you to his body, on which is a text of verse about King Olaf, who was responsible for the ghost bard's death.  After that the ghost vanishes, but you see him again on your way out where he opens a door that was previously sealed.  Inside is the throne room where he calls forth King Olaf's spirit.  The player and the bard-ghost then join together to fight the ancient king.  This is part of the Bard's College quest line, but I stumbled upon it in random exploration, and found it incredibly moving and effective.  There was hardly a word spoken.



So you might not prefer this style of storytelling, but don't tell me it's weak.  And it's not easy to construct, either.  This is just one example of many.

Modifié par Addai67, 19 mai 2012 - 02:24 .

[Yrkoon]

Luc0s wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

^

A single facial expression can sometimes say more than a thousand words. 'nuff said.

Not in a video game.  if a single facial expression says more than what the game play itself says, then we've got a problem:  bad writing.

Ow please, just shut up. That's complete BS  and you know it.

How can GAMEPLAY tell you anthing about the emotional state of a certain character?

Well lets see...

-Rebel General pacing up and down in his office before a big battle, taking  a few moments to look up as if pleading to  his god  -- translation, he's nervous, anxious, possibly fearful of what is to come.

-2 lovers  sharing a long  kiss as you walk in on them.  Translation -  emotion: love

-Monster flinging spells everywhere after being wounded in battle:  Translation:  someone is ANGRY

-Bandit sleeping on a bedroll, possibly the sound effects of snoring mixed in:  Translation: someone is tired.

-Soldier falls to the ground clutching his  right leg:  Translation:  Wounded in battle, in pain.  his leg hurts.

Go ahead and play dumb if you want, but considering your post history on this thread,  most people watching won't think you're actually playing.

[slimgrin]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

If that facial expression comes at the cost of content, then I simply don't need it. More cinematics tend to reduced content from my experience. That is absolutely unacceptable if it comes at that cost.

If you claim cutscenes are just filler, I agree. Which is why I think they don't belong in action games. But since RPG's tell story through dialog, devs have a chance to embrace good writing AND emotion through facial expression, gesture, etc. 

I do understand why Beth doesn't do them, but I gotta admit the beginning of Skyrim falls pretty flat imo, and would have had much more impact in a well crafted cut scene. 

Modifié par slimgrin, 19 mai 2012 - 02:29 .

[Yrkoon]

Luc0s wrote...

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

If that facial expression comes at the cost of content, then I simply don't need it. More cinematics tend to reduced content from my experience. That is absolutely unacceptable if it comes at that cost.

This is only true because DVD storage is very limited. But in the future we will have bigger storage devices for our games (rumors go that the next-gen of consoles will rely mostly on digital downloads). When storage space isn't an issue anymore, cutscenes will no longer come at the cost of other content.

This assumes games will  be longer in the future.

A silly assumption.  The trend has been the complete opposite since the the Super Nintendo days.

[Addai]

Conclusion: TES and Fallout are not your kind of games. So move on.

[slimgrin]

Addai67 wrote...

Conclusion: TES and Fallout are not your kind of games. So move on.

For the record, I totally agree that what makes Beth games special is each side quest, each dungeon or area tells its own story.

Modifié par slimgrin, 19 mai 2012 - 02:35 .

[slimgrin]

Luc0s wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Conclusion: TES and Fallout are not your kind of games. So move on.

They ARE my kind og game, I'm simply saying that the storytelling in these games are very weak. That's my only grudge with TES games.

I LOVE the sandbox experience and I play TES games mainly to explore their huge worlds. I love exploration and that's why TES games are so great. The stories in TES however, are not that great, well, in my opinion that is.

The story telling is there, and as Addia says, its in more than just the talking. It's in the environment and lore. But I won't say it holds a candle to the dialog in Bioware's or CDPR's games. And the plain voice acting is inexcusable.

Modifié par slimgrin, 19 mai 2012 - 03:20 .

[Yrkoon]

Luc0s wrote...
It's a simple fact that cutscenes take up the most disk space.

They Don't.  But hey, don't let that stop you from spouting utterly uneducated crap about matters you don't know jack about.

[Barbarossa2010]

Luc0s wrote...

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

If that facial expression comes at the cost of content, then I simply don't need it. More cinematics tend to reduced content from my experience. That is absolutely unacceptable if it comes at that cost.

This is only true because DVD storage is very limited. But in the future we will have bigger storage devices for our games (rumors go that the next-gen of consoles will rely mostly on digital downloads). When storage space isn't an issue anymore, cutscenes will no longer come at the cost of other content.


Also, watch this and tell me, do you think this specific and (to most) very emotional scene would be as emotionally convinding and as compelling if it WASN'T presented in a cutscene, but instead the Skyrim way, in-game through dialogue, like Skyrim does? I don't think so.

As of now, if there is a price to be paid, I think it's pretty clear where many players stand.  When the time comes that a developer can do both for the same resourcing, hey, that's just great.  We all get what we want.  You let me know when that happens.

As to your example, that's one of two or three scenes in ME3 that's right on target.  However, I don't make the argument that cut scenes are not effective, they're just not the only way.  That one scene, as good as it was, couldn't save ME3 and certainly wasn't enough to keep me in the game for much more than 30 or so hours; so you're example, while a fine choice, is a bit lost on me. 

ME3 is trying desperately to be a movie, Skyrim does not suffer under the burden of such limitations, and is hence and infinitely better experience for me.  I'll take the crafting/customization mechanics in Skyrim any day, three hundred times over, to the pathetic excuses BW calls crafting/customization in ME or Dragon Age.  I think I've been clear, no cutscenes or "facial expressions" at the cost of content. 

We could merely just expect different things out of our gaming experience.  While that might be true, I don't live under any delusions that you, or anyone else for that matter, is "wrong" because my preference,s and the extreme levels of subjectiveness that are required for me to even hold them, may not be yours.

[Yrkoon]

Luc0s wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

-Rebel General pacing up and down in his office before a big battle, taking  a few moments to look up as if pleading to  his god  -- translation, he's nervous, anxious, possibly fearful of what is to come.

Perhaps. But here is a better way ot showing a character being anxious, nervous and fearful of what is to come: http://www.youtube.c...j1P6iW4#t=5m05s

Indeed:   make the gamer stop playing.  Then force a cutscene  down their throats  where the proverbial God of the narrative screems in a booming Voice:    "you, chosen hero, you must now undertake a task that involves great danger.  Be nervous now.  be very nervous so that you don't confuse little  Player Jimmy, who isn't intelligent enough to appreciate or understand subtlty, and doesn't  want to waste brain space  gathering  clues from the environment or from text indicating that Chosen hero is nervous.


No f**king thanks.  Get this through your skull, now.   Some of us aren't kids.  Some of us are adults that  are  sick and tired of being coddled by developers and their love of hand-holding....  Developers  who make no bones about  their attempts  to attract  short attention-spanned  teenagers with movie style, hamfisted story-telling, and mindless horse-sh** like that.

You want to  know what the REAL future of gaming is?  I'll tell you.    Facebook and iPhones.  Why?  because even cutscenes are becoming too cumbersome for the  simple minds of kiddie gamers.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 19 mai 2012 - 03:13 .

[Barbarossa2010]

slimgrin wrote...

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

If that facial expression comes at the cost of content, then I simply don't need it. More cinematics tend to reduced content from my experience. That is absolutely unacceptable if it comes at that cost.

If you claim cutscenes are just filler, I agree. Which is why I think they don't belong in action games. But since RPG's tell story through dialog, devs have a chance to embrace good writing AND emotion through facial expression, gesture, etc. 

I do understand why Beth doesn't do them, but I gotta admit the beginning of Skyrim falls pretty flat imo, and would have had much more impact in a well crafted cut scene. 

That's a great opinion, but I disagree.  I was fine with it.  I don't need, nor want, a production in ES or FO.  And if the bill payer is content, cut scenes can go away as far as I'm concerned.  As I said earlier, there use was just not necessary for Skyrim to sell as well as it did; a trend I hope the wider gaming industry is paying attention to, especially when cutscenes are taking up so much disk space as Luc0s says.

I, for one, am pleased to no end that Bethesda bucked the trend of the interactive movie, and blew the doors off the industry with resounding success.  Controlling and restricting my experience is not something I do well with.  And let's face it, that what cut scene heavy wannabe movies do to the player experience.  There might be some bright spots in the genre (Alpha Protocol comes to mind, as I thoroughly enjoyed it-and could not imagine seeing Mike Thorton properly characterized without cut scenes), but freedom, to me, is king.  If my price for that freedom is little to no cut scenes peppered into the game, then that is a price I am happy to pay.

If crafting, exploration, drool worthy loot, a functioning economy, customization, and Mods, (by the gods I can't forget Mods), etc have to be reduced, or go away, so I can see Alduin in make-up, well, I don't think I have to really say where I stand on that.

[Yrkoon]

Luc0s wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Perhaps. But here is a better way ot showing a character being anxious, nervous and fearful of what is to come: http://www.youtube.c...j1P6iW4#t=5m05s

Indeed:   make the gamer stop playing.  Then force a cutscene  down their throats  where the proverbial God of the narrative screems in a booming Voice:    "you, chosen hero, you must now undertake a task that involves great danger.  Be nervous now.  be very nervous so that you don't confuse little  Player Jimmy, who isn't intelligent enough to appreciate or understand subtlty, and doesn't  want to waste brain space  gathering  clues from the environment or from text indicating that Chosen hero is nervous.

if you can seriously say that about that specific scene with a straight face and seriously meaning it, then you're either retarded, braindeath, or you lack emotions, or you simply don't appreciate art.

Yrkoon wrote...

No f**king thanks.  Get this through your skull, now.   Some of us aren't kids.

But obviously you are.

Yrkoon wrote...

Some of us are adults that  are  sick and tired of being coddled by developers and their love of hand-holding.... 
Developers  who make no bones about  their attempts  to attract  short attention-spanned  teenagers with movie style, hamfisted story-telling, and mindless horse-sh** like that.

Yeah, because Heavy Rain is SUCH a childish game. It indeed keeps holding your hand all the time. The cutscenes in Heavy Rain are truly weak attempts at telling a cheap story and it's obviously directed towards teenagers with a short attentionspan.

^
In case you didn't notice, that was sarcasm.

Yrkoon wrote...

You want to  know what the REAL future of gaming is?  I'll tell you.    Facebook and iPhones.  Why?  because even cutscenes are becoming too cumbersome for the  simple minds of kiddie gamers.

Facebook and iPhone will never replace triple A gaming as long as we keep buying our games instead of pirating them.


But honestly, you don't know what you're talking about. You have no idea how the game industry works and what the future might hold for us in video-game land, that much is clear to me.

Waaah.

lol

[Yrkoon]

Luc0s wrote...

Here's another reason why cutscenes are good:

How do you want to show the emotions of your player's character without cutscenes?  

MY Dovakiin  would never, ever, wish to  lower himself by showing any weakling "emotions".    Except for maybe one:   Bloodlust.  And that's easily shown in the very  traditional way.  With Violence.

Shove that down your pipe and smoke it.

Incidently, while we're still discussing cutscenes, it should be pointed out that the evolution of cutscenes in video games  neccessitates the inclusion of a Voiced Protagonist.  Something I, as a role player, vehemently oppose.  And even here at BSN, the community is split right nown the middle on the issue.

  Lets see you address THAT  problem, dude.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 19 mai 2012 - 03:40 .