37007 réponses à ce sujet

[slimgrin]

Yrkoon wrote...


Incidently, while we're still discussing cutscenes, it should be pointed out that the evolution of cutscenes in video games  neccessitates the inclusion of a Voiced Protagonist.  Something I, as a role player, vehemently oppose.

  lets see you address THAT  problem, dude.

If only we could go back to the good ol' days of silent film.

[Joy Divison]

Luc0s wrote...

Cutscenes = story.

Try to get a story across in video-games without cutscenes and you'll quickly discover that it's very hard to tell a compelling story without resorting to theatrics that we know as "cutscenes". That's why Skyrim's story is much simpeler and it's presentation much more shallow than, for example, Mass Effect, The Witcher or Dragon Age Origins.

What are you, like 12?

No offense, but if you are going to claim that it's very hard to tell a compelling story wo/ cutscenes in a video-game, you either have zero imagination, zero experience outside the medium of cutscenes, or are 12.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 19 mai 2012 - 03:52 .

[Yrkoon]

slimgrin wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...


Incidently, while we're still discussing cutscenes, it should be pointed out that the evolution of cutscenes in video games  neccessitates the inclusion of a Voiced Protagonist.  Something I, as a role player, vehemently oppose.

  lets see you address THAT  problem, dude.

If only we could go back to the good ol' days of silent film.

Oh, I'm totally in favor of a voiced protagonist in a movie.  Because in a movie, you're watching actors role play.

But not in games.   I don't play games to watch other people role play.   Because that would be silly.  Why not just  rent a movie?

Modifié par Yrkoon, 19 mai 2012 - 03:54 .

[Yrkoon]

Luc0s wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Incidently, while we're still discussing cutscenes, it should be pointed out that the evolution of cutscenes in video games  neccessitates the inclusion of a Voiced Protagonist.  Something I, as a role player, vehemently oppose.  And even here at BSN, the community is split right nown the middle on the issue.

  Lets see you address THAT  problem, dude.

Not true. You can have cutscenes with a silent protagonist.

You can, but like all aspects of gaming, there's evolution occurring.  Already  there was a groundswell of criticism regarding the "Zombie" Warden's lack of input  within DA:O's cutscenes, and that caused Bioware to make Hawke a talking ear-sore for the sequel.

Future Cinematically-heavy games will all contain voiced protagonists.  Scenes seem more "natural" that way.  Never mind  that a voiced protagonist totally throws the notion of true role playing under the bus, then runs it over while laughing.  But that's apparently the necessary evil with Cutscenes as a whole.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 19 mai 2012 - 04:04 .

[Joy Divison]

Luc0s wrote...

My entire point was that Skyrim's way of storytelling  is weak. The fact that I don't remember any stories from dungeons is evidence of that. You can blame it on me, but I blame it on the game.

Am I the only one we sees the humor in this statement?


The Beatles suck as a band.  The fact I can't distinguish any of their music from other musical groups is evidence of that.  You can blame it on me, but I blame it on the Beatles

[Yrkoon]

That's basically what he's saying, yes.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 19 mai 2012 - 04:03 .

[Yrkoon]

Luc0s wrote...

As I said, the notion that a silent protagonist is needed in order to be able to roleplay him is the biggest myth I've ever heard. If you can't roleplay a voiced protagonist than that's YOUR limit. I have no trouble roleplaying a voiced protagonist, at all.

No.  It's a literal limitation to roleplaying created by the Developers.  If I envision roleplaying a whisky-voiced brute,  or, for example, someone with MY voice,  but bioware decides instead to force upon us a  voice actor with a refined, formal british accent, my role playing options  have been limited.  Period.

There's also  the auto-speaking debacle of a voiced protagonist.  Geralt, Hawk and Shepard ALL say stuff in cutscenes that I didn't intend for them to say.  That KILLS both role playing and immersion.  period.

And ALL of these problems can be directly traced back to the inherant flaws with Cutscenes.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 19 mai 2012 - 04:20 .

[Yrkoon]

Luc0s wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

My entire point was that Skyrim's way of storytelling  is weak. The fact that I don't remember any stories from dungeons is evidence of that. You can blame it on me, but I blame it on the game.

Am I the only one we sees the humor in this statement?


The Beatles suck as a band.  The fact I can't distinguish any of their music from other musical groups is evidence of that.  You can blame it on me, but I blame it on the Beatles

Games are not the same as music.

God Damn, I don't think I've met anyone with your knack of utterly misunderstanding conceptual examples.

if one thing I've learned as a game-design student, it's that one should never blame the player if he fails to understand your game (unless the player in question is not your targer-audience).

You  were NOT discussing misunderstanding a game.   You were discussing your failure to remember something. contained in the game.

I left your initial quote intact in this quote pyramid so everyone here can see your disgustingly dishonest attempt to dodge the point.

[Joy Divison]

jreezy wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Cutscenes = story.

Try to get a story across in video-games without cutscenes and you'll quickly discover that it's very hard to tell a compelling story without resorting to theatrics that we know as "cutscenes". That's why Skyrim's story is much simpeler and it's presentation much more shallow than, for example, Mass Effect, The Witcher or Dragon Age Origins.

What are you, like 12?

No offense, but if you are going to claim that it's very hard to tell a compelling story wo/ cutscenes in a video-game, you either have zero imagination, zero experience outside the medium of cutscenes, or are 12.

Is that really the best argument you could come up with to what he said?

The way he "argues," or more accurately just assumes that everyone agrees with his opinions (which he believes are facts), is not worthy of anything better.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 19 mai 2012 - 04:20 .

[Yrkoon]

Luc0s wrote...

You think roleplaying is the opposite, you want it to be the other way around. What you want is creating your own personality and forcing that on the player character. Instead of assuming the role of a character, you want to create a personality and inject hat into your player character.

Just stop.  You've proven  already that you can barely speak for yourself, now you're trying to speak for others?

Let me re-iterate MY viewpoint, since you misunderstood it, right on cue.

A voiced Protagonist doesn't eliminate roleplaying.  it LIMITS it.    And no, there's no way to spin this to a positive.  Role playing is a good thing.    It's never good to LIMIT a good thing.

Luc0s wrote...

Which is the same thing in game-design terms. If people tend to forget the story in your game, then it obviously didn't leave a very big impression on them. There's no one else to blame in that situation than the developer and story writer.

LOL

I've got 2 forums filled with  untold thousands of people who don't seem to have forgotten stories contained Skyrim.

Perhaps your memory is just faulty?   There's certainly ample evidence of that on this very thread, where we've got you  failing to remember  that your Beloved Witcher 2 has dungeons and fetch quests in it.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 19 mai 2012 - 04:54 .

[Addai]

Luc0s wrote...

Here's another reason why cutscenes are good:

How do you want to show the emotions of your player's character without cutscenes?

You don't.  You let me imagine how my character is reacting to her environment, because to do anything else is to kill roleplay.

And here is where I realize we've been talking about silent vs. voiced protagonist the whole time.

[Yrkoon]

Addai67 wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Here's another reason why cutscenes are good:

How do you want to show the emotions of your player's character without cutscenes?

You don't. You let me imagine how my character is reacting to her environment, because to do anything else is to kill roleplay.

And here is where I realize we've been talking about silent vs. voiced protagonist the whole time.

^they're linked. The reason devolopers have moved to voiced protagonists is that it makes cutscenes seem more organic.

But the root of the problem is the cutscenes themselves. They've grown from being  occasional story  embelleshments to being the very bloodline of a game's plot and story-telling. It's not irrational to worry that in about 10 years, RPGs won't even have gameplay beyond "press X to pause", and "press A to skip" and "Press B to unsheath the Murder Knife and end the scene"

Modifié par Yrkoon, 19 mai 2012 - 04:41 .

[slimgrin]

Yrkoon wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Here's another reason why cutscenes are good:

How do you want to show the emotions of your player's character without cutscenes?

You don't. You let me imagine how my character is reacting to her environment, because to do anything else is to kill roleplay.

And here is where I realize we've been talking about silent vs. voiced protagonist the whole time.

^they're linked. The reason devolopers have moved to voiced protagonists is that it makes cutscenes seem more organic.

But the root of the problem is the cutscenes themselves. They've grown from being  occasional story  embelleshments to being the very bloodline of a game's plot and story-telling. It's not irrational to worry that in about 10 years, RPGs won't even have game play beyond "press X to pause", and press A to skip" and "Press B to unsheath the Murder Knife and end the conversation"

Exaggeration aside, I don't think gamers, especially role-play gamers, wil ever allow that to happen. Even Bioware doesn't do that. As I already pointed out, action games tend to abuse cutscenes, using them as filler. Not RPG's.

Modifié par slimgrin, 19 mai 2012 - 04:44 .

[Barbarossa2010]

Luc0s wrote...

Anyway, about cutscenes:

Personally I'm under the impression that cutscenes are the future of video-games. The way Skyrim handles things will get old eventually and it's not the best way to get a story accross. Some people might prefer it, but then again, some people prefer oldschool text adventure/RPGs (the good old DOS games). That does NOT mean it will have a future in the video-game industry though.

I think we can all expect that more games will go the same route as Mass Effect, The Witcher and Metal Gear Solid went, like it or not.

What I personally hope to see in the future, is interactive cutscenes, the same way Heavy Rain handles their cutscenes. Who is familiar with Heavy Rain, will know what I mean.

And just because you think it, doesn't mean it truly has a future.  How do any of those games in any of those series stack up to Skyrim's sales?  I think this is a case of "my preference is the future, because it's my...well...preference.  And any real evidence that doesn't support my preconceived notions, or those of the crowd I identify with, is simply going to be assumed away because it dimishes what I think should happen."

Personally I'm under the impression that cutscenes are fine for a very short and specific type of story-based game with minimal content, but are way overrated than the trend initially alluded to.  If anything, the wild success of an RPG like Skyrim has proven beyond any doubt to the industry that the recent fad of filling up all that disk space with cutscenes is really not necessary, and that they can save that space for the content that (apparently) many players want in its stead.

What I personally hope to see are more games like Skyrim in the future; games that value player freedom and agency, and offer a mind-boggling amount of exploration, customization, crafting and player modification with a serviceable story.  The rise of the Steam Workshop has already opened up to many new players the value and insane amount of fun to be had in modding, and that it's no longer just a geeky pastime for sun-sensitive troglodytes living in their undies in their basements.  I personall think this is a trend that will grow in the future.  Hell, the rise of indies and upstarts is a great indicator to me of a future that may differ a bit from yours.  You want to sell a couple of million copies, sure knock out a ME, or TW game.  You want to sell over 10 million copies, you make a Skyrim.  That's language the industry truly understands.

I value your opinion, but I see no indicators or evidence to suggest that your preferences are, in fact, THE future. Other than you really, really think that's what should happen.  What will be interesting to watch is what happens with FO4. 

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 19 mai 2012 - 04:50 .