37007 réponses à ce sujet

[Giggles_Manically]

Depends on the mod.
I got one that made magic more useful.
But the simplest way to make combat faster is just to use Marked for Death.

[Giggles_Manically]

You know I realize that the game does not recognize those moments but I still love being the big damn hero and rushing in to save the day.

Here I was walking around Morthal when an ancient dragon comes flying in.
Wiping the floor with a dragon always is fun.

I really just wish they would join Paarthurnax or something.

[Yrkoon]

Jestina wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...
Pro-tip:  if your sole purpose on this thread is to spit out one gripe/whine after another for pages on end, at least  familiarize yourself with the gripes you're actually making. lol.

It's the level scaling and it's a complete mess. And yes, I realize some of you kiss Bethesda's ass no matter what they do.

But you weren't describing the level scaling.   And from your comments, It doesn't look like you know what level scaling even  is.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 29 juin 2012 - 02:55 .

[Giggles_Manically]

When Dawnguard comes out for the PC/PS3 how long post release shall we be wary of spoilers?

I mean as of now we freely discuss any Skyrim spoiler.
Like Frey and Astrid being traitors.

[Jestina]

Level scaling...meaning in theory the enemies scale up to whatever your level is. Sounds okay at first but is not as much fun as systems which specifically tailor areas for certain levels rather than leaving it up to randomness.

I go through a dungeon at level 10 and have little trouble. I do the same dungeon with a level 30 character and have a nightmare because suddenly bandits are armed with uber weapons that can one shot me and mages are filling the room with fire that downs me in two seconds. I felt more powerful at level 10 than 30. There's no sense of character growth and becoming stronger in a scaling system. Not to far into the game, it just devolves into an arms race rather than battles based more on skill.

[Yrkoon]

Jestina wrote...

Level scaling...meaning in theory the enemies scale up to whatever your level is. Sounds okay at first but is not as much fun as systems which specifically tailor areas for certain levels rather than leaving it up to randomness.

I go through a dungeon at level 10 and have little trouble. I do the same dungeon with a level 30 character and have a nightmare because suddenly bandits are armed with uber weapons that can one shot me and mages are filling the room with fire that downs me in two seconds. I felt more powerful at level 10 than 30. There's no sense of character growth and becoming stronger in a scaling system. Not to far into the game, it just devolves into an arms race rather than battles based more on skill.

Aah yes, and we're back to blaming the game for our own suckiness.

By level 30, any decent player is decked out in Legendary-level smithed gear, and with the right combat perks, is one shotting most non-boss enemies.  And if Stealth is involved, they're destroying enemies that are completely unaware of their presense.

But let me guess:  You "hate" the smithing system and the stealth system, and thus never use either one, so your armor rating, at level 30, is still in the  low 100s, you're only doing about  40 damage with your warhammer, and the trash mobs are overwhelming you before you can even drink a potion.  amirite?

Modifié par Yrkoon, 29 juin 2012 - 04:57 .

[LPPrince]

Come on Yrkoon. Play nice.

Anyway,

Found every one of the Paragons except the Emerald Paragon. Used them at the Paragon Platform.

Diamond Paragon=Very underwhelming.

Sapphire Paragon=Very overwhelming.

Go Sapphire!

Anywho, will locate the Emerald Paragon when I feel like it.

[Fishy]

Yrkoon wrote...

Jestina wrote...

Level scaling...meaning in theory the enemies scale up to whatever your level is. Sounds okay at first but is not as much fun as systems which specifically tailor areas for certain levels rather than leaving it up to randomness.

I go through a dungeon at level 10 and have little trouble. I do the same dungeon with a level 30 character and have a nightmare because suddenly bandits are armed with uber weapons that can one shot me and mages are filling the room with fire that downs me in two seconds. I felt more powerful at level 10 than 30. There's no sense of character growth and becoming stronger in a scaling system. Not to far into the game, it just devolves into an arms race rather than battles based more on skill.

Aah yes, and we're back to blaming the game for our own suckiness.

By level 30, any decent player is decked out in Legendary-level smithed gear, and with the right combat perks, is one shotting most non-boss enemies.  And if Stealth is involved, they're destroying enemies that are completely unaware of their presense.

But let me guess:  You "hate" the smithing system and the stealth system, and thus never use either one, so your armor rating, at level 30, is still in the  low 100s, you're only doing about  40 damage with your warhammer, and the trash mobs are overwhelming you before you can even drink a potion.  amirite?

But then you fall into the ' Do it or suck it up ' trap. You end upusing the same armor has everyone else with the same perk and the same weapons and you're just a copy carbon of every other player one shotting their way through every dungeons and posting the same comment in every forum about how people should learn how to play.

Then, the cycle repeat and all of those people have forgotten one prima thing. It's not a job. You're not paid to offer the best ass kicking to these monsters. Why include so many perk and skill if you end up using the  same thing in the end? Skyrim is a bit better in term of scaling than let's say Oblivion.

Where  common street thug would be wearing astral weapons and full set of gold  heavy set piece imbued in the blood of Mehrunes Dagon and hundred of  virgin woman at the hostel of despair at the peak of Mt.Doom. In Skyrim
they upscale, but their equipment and abilities still make more sense  depending of the area. For instance Giant don't scale with you. They're always level 20-35. Dragon dogma and Dark Soul Enemy don't scale and I love it. It`s still not a MMORPG. It`s make sense though that has a newly arrived weakling a great snow bear would tear you apart.

Modifié par Suprez30, 29 juin 2012 - 05:13 .

[Yrkoon]

No,  it's not that way at all. There are  a dozen  vastly different avenues to becoming  untouchable in Skyrim by level 30.   I simply listed 2 of them (smithing and stealth). There's also Alchemy. You can go through this game completely naked and visible, and still 1-shot giants and Falmer shadowmasters at will, if you've taken the Alchemy perks and made the right potions for the situation at hand. Then there's magic. You can exploit illusion and conjuration to such a degree that you don't even have to fight anymore. 

And don't get me started on Archery.  Or the combination of Archery and Alchemy, or the combination of Archery and Conjuration.  or Archery and Stealth, or melee and smithing.  or melee and Alchemy.  or Melee and Stealth.  or Melee, stealth and Alchemy.  or Enchanting and melee....e.t.c.  It's limitless.  Because the game is designed to be easily mastered by   anyone who makes mastery a goal. 

The canned, cliche arguments of level scaling  and build-railroading do not apply to Skyrim.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 29 juin 2012 - 06:16 .

[Addai]

Jestina wrote...

Level scaling...meaning in theory the enemies scale up to whatever your level is. Sounds okay at first but is not as much fun as systems which specifically tailor areas for certain levels rather than leaving it up to randomness.

I go through a dungeon at level 10 and have little trouble. I do the same dungeon with a level 30 character and have a nightmare because suddenly bandits are armed with uber weapons that can one shot me and mages are filling the room with fire that downs me in two seconds. I felt more powerful at level 10 than 30. There's no sense of character growth and becoming stronger in a scaling system. Not to far into the game, it just devolves into an arms race rather than battles based more on skill.

This is not how level scaling works in Skyrim.  The dungeon will remain at the level it was when you first entered the cell.  Some chest loot may be leveled because it respawns.  You will never, ever find normal bandits in ebony armor with dragonbone weapons.  Show me one.

When you explore new areas, those areas will be leveled to you- except for a few dungeons which have a fixed level.  This is so the game always remains challenging, without the sort of immersion breaking rigid scaling in Oblivion (where imps suddenly disappear, to be replaced by minotaurs, everywhere in the world).

The "arms race" is part of your skill because it's expected that characters will have some trade skill.  Crafting is important in Skyrim.  If you're not into crafting, it's going to always be hard.  You can always put down the difficulty.  I still don't see the problem.

Like F:NV, a few areas in the world are always going to be dangerous for low level characters.  That rat bastard draugr deathlord in Labyrinthian is always going to one-shot me with his friggin ebony bow, whether I go there at level 10 or 20.

Modifié par Addai67, 29 juin 2012 - 05:35 .

[Joy Divison]

Smithing arms race is not necessary. Between loot drops and vendors, good level appropriate weapons are easily obtainable for any type of character.

[Yrkoon]

Enchanting isn't really necessary either. Fairly early on you'll find (or be able to buy) weapons that do +20-30 elemental damage... which is something you'd normally need 80+ Enchanting skill to make yourself.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 29 juin 2012 - 05:56 .

[Haplose]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

I NEVER got the ridiculous hype this game got. At all. I played it for a while, enough that did most of the faction quests and went to that big mountain but it failed to hold my attention. The main quest was so dull I never even finished it, it seemed the selling point was HEY! DRAGONS! AND THEY FLY!!! Also the bad voice acting really got me, I mean with a very few exceptions it was awful, I usually switched off the sound and listened to some music instead. The visuals were amazing though, I felt like I could stare at the auroras for hours. Exploration, which was kinda big part was EXACTLY like Oblivion which might explain why I got bored so quickly. Combat didn't change at all either except for finishing moves which were horrendously animated at times. But what bothered me the most was the lack of any interesting quests or storylines. In fact the only ones that really got my attention, at least for a while, were the Dark Brotherhood and the Thieves Guild. Otherwise? Meh.

It wasn't a bad game but MAN did it make me yearn for a Bioware game.

Let's see if I understand it right. So exploration (and combat) in Skyrim is like Oblivion? Also how enjoyable a game is depends largely on the quality of voice acting? 
Uhm, well, okay.  

Cool story, Bro. Thanks for sharing!

[Elhanan]

Sorry, but one may find success as a 2H monster of death, or as an artisan; a spinning DW whirlwind of pain, or as an unseen sniper. Etc. If one character begins to resemble another, it is not the fault of this versatile system, but rather the Player that is making the same choices.

There are far too many stories in this thread alone of the various approaches one may play in Skyrim. Personally, I do not care for alchemy, but others have told of collecting ingredients, recipes, and delivering a poison that made the next major encounter rather humerous.While it ain't my choice, it is certainly available, and viable.

Also, want to eat a cooked meal? Sleep? Collect butterflies? It is available, but remains optional; all in the hands of the indv Player.

Not saying this is the greatest game I have ever seen, but it certainly is in the same short list of names I would nominate.

Modifié par Elhanan, 29 juin 2012 - 06:09 .

[Haplose]

Level scaling works actually pretty well in Skyrim. In principle I was always opposed to it. But after seeing how static levelled areas work in Nehrim (Oblivion total conversion mod), I think bracketed level scaling like in Skyrim might actually be a better choice for a large, open world game.

Also I disagree about "being forced" to develop in a certain way to advance and beat the game. Like Yrkoon wrote, there are many paths that lead to the goal.Many of them very powerfull.

Skyrim even went the controversial extra mile and made equipment grade of little relevance in the big picture. With Smithing (and armor caps in place) you can make lowest-tier Iron equipment almost comparable to top tier/Daedric/Dragonbone. Maybe even better, if you don't have higher-tier Smithing perks to double the smithing improvement effect for a given material. Or data about Smithing perk for a given item is missing from the vanilla game (*cough* Daedric Artifacts, Nightingale kit, etc.*cough*).
I'm not sure if it was a good decision, as it detracts from the natural gear progression. But it does allow for complete freedom in customization of what the characters wear and fight with. Supports the "doll" aspect of a character I suppose. And makes sure your character can be very effective regardless of equipment tier he's using (provided that he took other specialization perks).

Modifié par Haplose, 29 juin 2012 - 06:13 .

[Jestina]

Yrkoon wrote...
But let me guess: You "hate" the smithing system and the stealth system, and thus never use either one, so your armor rating, at level 30, is still in the low 100s, you're only doing about 40 damage with your warhammer, and the trash mobs are overwhelming you before you can even drink a potion. amirite?

I grind smithing...and enchanting, which you are pretty much forced to if you want to keep up. Stealth I have no problem with, but that's not going to do a whole lot of good if you don't have uber gear for when you break stealth. Not that I can play a thief often as the quick swap system is broken and Bethesda is too lazy to fix it. Gear starts to become more important than anything else as the game moves along. If you don't have smithing, enchanting, and maybe alchemy...then you are pretty much screwed. The problem with the crafting system is that they designed it more to make super powered characters...rather than as something to provide monetary support or just something else to do. The crafting skills just overshadow the class skills too much.

[Yrkoon]

Jestina wrote...
I grind smithing...and enchanting, which you are pretty much forced to if you want to keep up.

My Summoned Dremora Lord would beg to differ.  As would my Stealthy archer.

 Stealth I have no problem with, but that's not going to do a whole lot of good if you don't have uber gear for when you break stealth.

In a dungeon,  you Break stealth just in time for your opponent to FALL DEAD from your 15x  30x backstab multiplier.  And if you take the 100 sneak perk, you're back into stealth in a puff of smoke right after you're detected..

Stealth is *the*  most overpowered skill in the game.  I've been able to  sneak up to  Bandit Chiefs  and take their Armor and weapons away from them. leaving them naked and unarmed before I fight them.     I'll let you figure out what happens next.

Not that I can play a thief often as the quick swap system

 Thieves don't need to swap weapons, do they?  Or rather, their total effectiveness is not  diminished by simply using one weapon.  This is a subject change attempt on your part.

If you don't have smithing, enchanting, and maybe alchemy...then you are pretty much screwed.

My bound  Bow would disagree with you.

The problem with the crafting system is that they designed it more to make super powered characters...rather than as something to provide monetary support or just something else to do. The crafting skills just overshadow the class skills too much.

The "problem" with ALL skills in this game is that their upper limits are pretty darn high, to the point where one could, if one desires, Break the game with ANY skill.  And while *I* may see this as a flaw, you have been arguing otherwise for the last 2 pages - by claiming that the level scaling makes  you too weak  at high levels.   

But the exact opposite  is true and  anyone who's reached level 40-60 knows it.... the game ceases being a challenge  later on no matter  how pathetically built your   character is.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 29 juin 2012 - 08:49 .

[Elhanan]

Jestina wrote...

I grind smithing...and enchanting, which you are pretty much forced to if you want to keep up. Stealth I have no problem with, but that's not going to do a whole lot of good if you don't have uber gear for when you break stealth. Not that I can play a thief often as the quick swap system is broken and Bethesda is too lazy to fix it. Gear starts to become more important than anything else as the game moves along. If you don't have smithing, enchanting, and maybe alchemy...then you are pretty much screwed. The problem with the crafting system is that they designed it more to make super powered characters...rather than as something to provide monetary support or just something else to do. The crafting skills just overshadow the class skills too much.

Again, it appears that you are incorrect in your obeservations; possibly allowing personal bias taint yiur objectivity.

While equipment can be important, one does not have to craft, but may soley rely on finding decent loot. This may be done through exploration of both the lands, and the shops. Now this can require more patience than simply making a weapon or piece of armor at the forge, but it can be done.

Delve into those ruins and tombs, and find that matching set of guantlets your were seeking. Or if such questing is not your drink of choice, Quick Travel to Solitude and see if the sisters have that Immunity device you need. Etc.

Or if you are not into armor and weapons, then spend more time on your spells, and let your incantations do the talking for you. Personally, I am a convert to the IG notion that Restoration is not getting the respect it deserves. Through this School of magic. the game allows you to become a self-charging battery of power. And while I have not chosen to go with simple robes, this obviously is a viable choice thru Alteration.

Is the game perfect? Nope, but it strives in that direction.

[Haplose]

All good points, Yrkoon.

I would strongly advise levelling one, maximum two craft skills to stay competetive on Master difficulty. But you're certainly not forced to grind Smithing and Enchanting. In fact I'm having way more fun since I dropped Enchanting from my builds. And no problems keeping up with the difficulty curve on Master.

But there are builds which don't need crafting at all, like Yrkoon mentioned. Mages relying on Summons and/or Illusion and/or a Bound bow. Assasins who with the DB gloves deal 30x damage per sneak attack, which is enough to kill most enemies outright, regardless of weapon level.
Heck, my illusion assasin was dropping enemies with a dagger with 0 perks invested in One-handed (so he could still double his damage potential with a few perks).

[happy_daiz]

^ Aww, no Enchanting? With the vampire blight going on in my playthrough (Dawnguard), I'm finding it absolutely crucial to have frost (and sometimes fire) resistance enchantments. If I didn't, every random encounter would be quite a bit more difficult.

BTW, I smithed some of the new Dragonbone weapons last night, just to see what they look like. I think I'll stick to Daedric for that character - she's wearing Dragonscale, not Dragonplate, so the new weapons don't look right with what she's wearing.

[Haplose]

Enchanting is not absolutly necessary for resistances.
Agent of Mara gives 15% Magic Resistance. Lord Stone gives 25% MR. That's 40% MR easily and freely available. If you happen to play a Breton, that's another 25% MR right there. Or 50% Cold resist for Nords and 50% Fire resist for Darkmer.
If you train Alteration, you can get another 30% MR with perks.
If you use a Shield, Ysgramor's Shield or Shield of Solitude give 20% MR in addition to 50% resistance to all elements that you can get while shieldblocking with a perk.
Otherwise random loots, shop in Solitude and certain armor sets can have high levels of elemental resistance. Like the Nightingale armor with 50% Cold resist. All kinds of Shields, Amulets and Boots easily providing upto 70% Resistance to 1 element.

You don't need enchanting to make yourself magic-proof. You just have to look around and make some counscious decisions regarding your race, build, standing stones, equipment etc.
Maybe stalk the shopkeepers of Radiant Rainment in Solitude a bit...

[happy_daiz]

^ You do it your way, I'll do it mine.  Trust me, I'm well aware of all the places I can find enchanted gear. This isn't my first Skyrim rodeo. Plus, with Dawnguard, a lot of the quest payments are in enchanted gear.

I'm playing as a Redguard this time, so the only built-in resistance she has is against poison. I realize I could be playing as one of my other 12 characters, if I want to use their resistances, but I don't want to right now, and I'm stubborn.

And I'm also greedy. I make a lot of jewelry (smithing), then enchant it (enchanting), maybe use a potion to increase enchanting or speech (alchemy), then sell it (speech). That's just the way I do it, and the beauty of Skyrim is that you can find your own path to awesomeness.

Modifié par happy_daiz, 29 juin 2012 - 01:59 .

[Joy Divison]

Jestina wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...
But let me guess: You "hate" the smithing system and the stealth system, and thus never use either one, so your armor rating, at level 30, is still in the low 100s, you're only doing about 40 damage with your warhammer, and the trash mobs are overwhelming you before you can even drink a potion. amirite?

I grind smithing...and enchanting, which you are pretty much forced to if you want to keep up. Stealth I have no problem with, but that's not going to do a whole lot of good if you don't have uber gear for when you break stealth. Not that I can play a thief often as the quick swap system is broken and Bethesda is too lazy to fix it. Gear starts to become more important than anything else as the game moves along. If you don't have smithing, enchanting, and maybe alchemy...then you are pretty much screwed. The problem with the crafting system is that they designed it more to make super powered characters...rather than as something to provide monetary support or just something else to do. The crafting skills just overshadow the class skills too much.

Unless you devote all your perks to speech and lockpicking and store every septim and loot drop in a chest, any PC over level 35 is uber-powerful.  That's just the way RPGs go.  They are reasonably balanced in the beginning and then PCs get access to skills and abilities that allow them to break the game if players choose.  As Yrkoon pointed out, Skyrim has numerous such ways aside from smtihing and enchanting.

By level 30, without collecting a single plant, smithing an iron dagger, or visiting an enchanter's table, my dual wield assassin of death will have the best light armor (Nightingale set), a sword that paralyzing enemies that makes 95% of fights trivial (chillrend)...this, of course, if they survive two 30x damage from ebony daggers...80% resistance to fire, lightning, and frost (agent of mara, lord stone, and purchased resistance necklace), and Namiera's ridiculously overpowered ring.

Skyrim is a great game, but requires the player to restrain themselves from breaking the mechanics.

[Giggles_Manically]

I have like 8 separate characters and I dont have any issue.

The point is that you have to focus on an offensive and defensive skill.
Whether its mage armor, heavy armor, or light armor.
Or any of the available ways to do damage.

However you can do what my friend does and just be a wandering tinkerer, who avoids combat, and goes nowhere near dungeons.
Nothing of the main quest has been done and he is level 25.
Just levelled speech, lockpick, sneak, and some light weapon skills.

He still has fun.
If the game is one shotting you, turn the difficulty down, and go level grind on some weak ass bandit cave. Skyrim trumps Morrowind in that you wont always run into UBER powered areas and get killed, and it beats Oblivion in that you dont have to power level.

Seriously just play at the easiest if you are not having fun.
I play on Adept since its the right mix of fun and challenge for me.

But you cant get mad at the game if you are not getting ahead since leveling loot is a key staple of RPGs. My old DM would always point out that getting better gear is a key to success....and not forgetting to bring snacks.