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[RedArmyShogun]

Addai67 wrote...

[A lot of that conventional wisdom is going by the wayside.  London was a thriving city in post-Roman times, it just wasn't a Roman city.  In the written records, heavily Romanized, the latter was all that counts.  But the physical artifacts tell a different story, i.e. there was no "Dark Age" in Europe where everyone was miserable and half-dead.

I do think Tamriel is in for a dark time, but what else is new.

We've been over this before, we will not again.

There are records of **** floating in the streets of london as they didn't have a F'n clue on what to do.  A big populations isn't a sign of an advanced one by its own right.  And the Darkages were not a positive time. I guess though you are right and silly things like massed periods of war, the black death, or mongol invasions never happend. So lets not get down this road again, you lost last time, and you will this time.

The point is if you want to get technical, is crap is screwed up.

Also what giggles said and as a side note when  I use "dark ages" I mean the colletive area's they didn't see much of anything good happening, untill states were made and some progress happend, and correct on the Isalmic World. An angry Khan and a pissed of man out of Mecca is what happend there lulz.

Modifié par Confess-A-Bear, 20 juillet 2012 - 08:32 .

[The Hierophant]

Confess-A-Bear wrote...

Its sorta how when the Roman Empire went bust. So many things they built just crashed down. Heck it took the English a few hundred years to figure out how to improve the sewers in London, to the point that waste was floating in the streets. Thats about how it is for them I suspect. Which makes me think populations are suffering there, not growing.

Aside from the population growth, I remember in Markarth that  the court wizard and his nephew were trying to reverse engineer a Dwemer spider automaton, but it was inferior to an original. I know it's for story purposes but it amazes me that 1000 years after the Dwemer disappeared that their technological achievements were not properly reverse engineered by any of the other races. If the Dwemer were still on Tamriel by the 4th era there would've been toilet paper, 21st century styled computers, and flying cars.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 20 juillet 2012 - 08:50 .

[RedArmyShogun]

Lol if the Dwemer were still around we'ld only have one racial option in TES.

[Addai]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

The problem for Tamriel is that its not in the dark ages, its heading more towards an era where things are going to stagnate.

People are focused on war, and survival, not upon great technological leaps.
Look at Skyrim.
There are no cities or forts that dont look a thousand years old.

Also Addai is right, Dark Ages is just a term that Rome centered historians love using.
There was no dark age in the Middle East, and many thinkers did continue.

They just were not united under on banner anymore.

Ah, but the whole idea of "stagnating because no technology" is a very Roman/ classical and prejudiced one, too.  Technology is not the be-all end-all, not in our world but especially not on Nirn.  The Dwemer found that out, I think.  This isn't a world where time is marching on in linear fashion towards some golden age of progress.  Things go in cycles.  We're probably on a downward turn of this cycle, but maybe not.  It's hard to say because the devs could throw a curveball at any time.

The empire is in decline, that's for certain.  Most provinces have bailed.  The picture we get of imperial institutions- the Synod, Whisperers, the Blades, Penitus Oculatus, Elder Council- is one of fragmentation and parochial infighting.  All the more reason for Skyrim to cut the apron strings.  That's only a disaster if you're very attached to those institutions, which a lot of TES players are.

[Addai]

The Hierophant wrote...

Confess-A-Bear wrote...

Its sorta how when the Roman Empire went bust. So many things they built just crashed down. Heck it took the English a few hundred years to figure out how to improve the sewers in London, to the point that waste was floating in the streets. Thats about how it is for them I suspect. Which makes me think populations are suffering there, not growing.

Aside from the population growth, I remember in Markarth that  the court wizard and his nephew were trying to reverse engineer a Dwemer spider automatron, but it was inferior to an original. I know it's for story purposes but it amazes me that 1000 years after the Dwemer disappeared that their technological achievements were not properly reverse engineered by any of the other races. If the Dwemer were still on Tamriel by the 4th era there would've been toilet paper, 21st century styled computers, and flying cars.

Why should there be?  Moderns are so vain.  Not everyone wants our widgets and contraptions.  They seem to make life better, until you realize they're also making people sick.  And if you have magic, modern gadgets would be regression, not progress.

Anyway I forget the name of the trope, but this is one of those worlds where our notion of chronological progress is suspended in a medievalesque world forever.

[legion999]

Didn't Falion say he met, and spoke to, some Dwemer in the Outer Realms?

[Costin_Razvan]

The empire is in decline, that's for certain. Most provinces have bailed.

By most you mean the elves and red guards? Don't mention Skyrim since half the population wants to remain in the Empire.

In regards to the Dark Ages, I see a lot of exaggeration on both sides. The reality is that the loss of a central authority over much of Europe after the end of Pax Romana ( NOT the western Roman empire though things did get worse after that ended ) was something that caused the rise of a large number of armed conflicts inside the former Roman lands. Due to these armed conflicts life in general became harsher for the population in those regions and even beyond ( Charlamagne )

The simple reality is it is always worse for the people when a war is going on in their lands whereas in the Pax Romana wars generally happened on the frontier while much of the Empire was peaceful

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 20 juillet 2012 - 08:49 .

[The Hierophant]

Addai67 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Confess-A-Bear wrote...

Its sorta how when the Roman Empire went bust. So many things they built just crashed down. Heck it took the English a few hundred years to figure out how to improve the sewers in London, to the point that waste was floating in the streets. Thats about how it is for them I suspect. Which makes me think populations are suffering there, not growing.

Aside from the population growth, I remember in Markarth that  the court wizard and his nephew were trying to reverse engineer a Dwemer spider automatron, but it was inferior to an original. I know it's for story purposes but it amazes me that 1000 years after the Dwemer disappeared that their technological achievements were not properly reverse engineered by any of the other races. If the Dwemer were still on Tamriel by the 4th era there would've been toilet paper, 21st century styled computers, and flying cars.

Why should there be?  Moderns are so vain.  Not everyone wants our widgets and contraptions.  They seem to make life better, until you realize they're also making people sick.  And if you have magic, modern gadgets would be regression, not progress.

Anyway I forget the name of the trope, but this is one of those worlds where our notion of chronological progress is suspended in a medievalesque world forever.

It's probably Medieval-vile or something similiar.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 20 juillet 2012 - 08:52 .

[Addai]

Costin, the Roman presence meant constant warfare for the Danube, the Rhine, the Persian frontier. There was never any Pax Romana at the borders. That was a term coined by Livy, who was glad he could get botanical specimens from far-flung places. Fine for him and his potted plant collection, not necessarily for those who were subdued. When the Romans were gone, other leaders took their place. Same old same old.

The provinces are all gone except for a fractured Skyrim, a decimated Morrowind (maybe), and High Rock (maybe).  There is no empire any longer, no matter what you do in TESV.

Modifié par Addai67, 20 juillet 2012 - 08:52 .

[The Hierophant]

Confess-A-Bear wrote...

Lol if the Dwemer were still around we'ld only have one racial option in TES.

But the Dwemer being so technologically advanced would discover they're apart of a video game world, thus breaking the 4th wall. Which leads to them sparing the other races because, the lack of the latter would hurt sales. The Dwemer right now are probably hiding somewhere in the wilderness of Canada waiting to strike at any moment.

[Addai]

The Hierophant wrote...

Confess-A-Bear wrote...

Lol if the Dwemer were still around we'ld only have one racial option in TES.

But the Dwemer being so technologically advanced would discover they're apart of a video game world, thus breaking the 4th wall. Which leads to them sparing the other races because, the lack of the latter would hurt sales. The Dwemer right now are probably hiding somewhere in the wilderness of Canada waiting to strike at any moment.

That's called achieving CHIM and if you do that you learn to be a modder.  If you don't, you disappear.  So we're cool either way. 

[Costin_Razvan]

Costin, the Roman presence meant constant warfare for the Danube, the Rhine, the Persian frontier. There was never any Pax Romana at the borders. That was a term coined by Livy, who was glad he could get botanical specimens from far-flung places. Fine for him and his potted plant collection, not necessarily for those who were subdued. When the Romans were gone, other leaders took their place. Same old same old.

After the end of Pax Romana you had major wars sprining up for a long period of time in modern Britain, France, Spain and Italy besides greaters wars that took place deeper in Germany, Romania etc. So yes the end of Pax Romana made things worse for everyone, not just the former Roman subjects but also their enemies.

 
The provinces are all gone except for a fractured Skyrim, a decimated Morrowind (maybe), and High Rock (maybe).  There is no empire any longer, no matter what you do in TESV. 

Is there any evidence to suggest that High Rock and Morrowind are planning to leave the Empire? Or that life in Cyrodill is bad right now?

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 20 juillet 2012 - 09:00 .

[The Hierophant]

Addai67 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Confess-A-Bear wrote...

Lol if the Dwemer were still around we'ld only have one racial option in TES.

But the Dwemer being so technologically advanced would discover they're apart of a video game world, thus breaking the 4th wall. Which leads to them sparing the other races because, the lack of the latter would hurt sales. The Dwemer right now are probably hiding somewhere in the wilderness of Canada waiting to strike at any moment.

That's called achieving CHIM and if you do that you learn to be a modder.  If you don't, you disappear.  So we're cool either way. 

Lol!

[Giggles_Manically]

The problem for the Romans is that they stretched themselves to far, made to many enemies, and suffered far to many losses to maintain an empire.

I mean marching from Rome to Gaul is not that much, but from Rome to Syria?

The problem for the Septim Empire is that the Septim's were the only thing keeping it as an empire. Without a Septim most people stopped seeing the real point of it anyway.
They did not create an empire, but a dynasty.
The Dunmer were never really part of the Empire, the Orcs never really had a province, and the Altmer never wanted to be part of the empire.

Added to it, the Mede dynasty made blunder after blunder and the Thalmor proved far better at the political game.

The Empire is out of gas, and trying to tie another province to it wont make a difference in the end.
While it can still operate its nothing like what it was.

It just took to many hits, like the Oblivion Crisis, the Great War, and the rebellion.

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
After the end of Pax Romana you had major wars sprining up for a long period of time in modern Britain, France, Spain and Italy besides greaters wars that took place deeper in Germany, Romania etc. So yes the end of Pax Romana made things worse for everyone, not just the former Roman subjects but also their enemies.

And the Roman presence meant no wars?  Don't make me LOL.

 
Is there any evidence to suggest that High Rock and Morrowind are planning to leave the Empire? Or that life in Cyrodill is bad right now?

We're told that the reason they had to give in to the WGC is that things in Cyrodiil were so bad it was a matter of survival.  So if they're not bad, what the hell was that all about.

As I see it Morrowind, like Argonia and Elsweyr, was never really imperialized.  It was a veneer.  There was only one house who were chummy with the imperials.  The whole alliance was made between Vivec and Tiber- the Medes have seemed to leave Morrowind completely to its own devices, and so far I haven't heard anything to suggest the Dunmer care.  No one in the IC stirred themselves when the Argonians were razing southern Morrowind, so by the time the empire gets its **** together, if they ever do, do you honestly think the Dunmer are going to say "ohh, you're back, how lovely"?

As for High Rock, we know nothing about them really.  Their warring princes will likely take the opportunity of Cyrodiil's distraction to grab power for themselves.  If Skyrim goes independent, they'd be completely cut off.

All the writing on the wall is that the empire as it has been known up to now is a thing of the past.  Talos' avatar in Morrowind even said as much.

Modifié par Addai67, 20 juillet 2012 - 09:08 .

[Costin_Razvan]

The problem for the Romans is that they stretched themselves to far, made to many enemies, and suffered far to many losses to maintain an empire.

I mean marching from Rome to Gaul is not that much, but from Rome to Syria?

The problem was not from an external threat to Roman but from an internal threat. It was Romans who brought Pax Romana and it was Romans who ended it.

 
And the Roman presence meant no wars?  Don't make me LOL. 

Are you blind or just reading what you want to read? I said there were conflicts but in terms of intensity and numbers these conflicts were far less then those that followed. In case you forgot I am a Romanian, and what lands were conquered during Pax Romana? Oh right Dacia.

So what of it? Roman rule was better for us then Dacian rule or what followed after the Romans left us.

One only needs to look at one thing to asses the reality of life after the end of Pax Romana and then the Western Roman Empire: The lack of detailed historical accounts. Look at the ones before the end of the West and those after it's end and you will see a stark difference. What the hell does this tell you? That it was all as good as it was before? Now I LOL.

 
We're told that the reason they had to give in to the WGC is that things in Cyrodiil were so bad it was a matter of survival.  So if they're not bad, what the hell was that all about. 

It's one thing to lose your capital and half of the region and then lose half your entire military might defeating the enemy to rebelions, unrest, poor administration and so on.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 20 juillet 2012 - 09:15 .

[The Hierophant]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Costin, the Roman presence meant constant warfare for the Danube, the Rhine, the Persian frontier. There was never any Pax Romana at the borders. That was a term coined by Livy, who was glad he could get botanical specimens from far-flung places. Fine for him and his potted plant collection, not necessarily for those who were subdued. When the Romans were gone, other leaders took their place. Same old same old.

After the end of Pax Romana you had major wars sprining up for a long period of time in modern Britain, France, Spain and Italy besides greaters wars that took place deeper in Germany, Romania etc. So yes the end of Pax Romana made things worse for everyone, not just the former Roman subjects but also their enemies.

 
The provinces are all gone except for a fractured Skyrim, a decimated Morrowind (maybe), and High Rock (maybe).  There is no empire any longer, no matter what you do in TESV. 

Is there any evidence to suggest that High Rock and Morrowind are planning to leave the Empire? Or that life in Cyrodill is bad right now?

Imo, the Empire might try to throw High Rock under the bus to appease the Thalmor, like they did with Hammerfell during The White-Gold Concordat. Well about Morrowind it's currently the Black Marsh's toilet from what the lore implied.

[RedArmyShogun]

I'm not so sure on that, with an Empire play Tullius I think might crown himself, and he doesn't seem the bend the knee sort. A political body won't stand long if its military isn't in lockstep.

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Are you blind or just reading what you want to read? I said there were conflicts but in terms of intensity and numbers these conflicts were far less then those that followed.

That's just wrong.  Take Britain, for example.  Even in the Anglo-Saxon invasion, there was no large population displacement.  Any creaky old theories about a Celtic genocide have long been put to rest.  The Germanic tribes, the Vikings, assimilated with the local population and life went on.  Trade continued as it always had, so did manufacture- and these things pre-dated the Romans, too, incidentally, as did the roads that Rome liked to take credit for.

The idea that Rome brought peace, prosperity and the good life was Roman propaganda and the idea that Rome being gone led to mass suffering is, likewise.

 
It's one thing to lose your capital and half of the region and then lose half your entire military might defeating the enemy to rebelions, unrest, poor administration and so on.

So what are you saying?

[Costin_Razvan]

That's just wrong. Take Britain, for example. Even in the Anglo-Saxon invasion, there was no large population displacement. Any creaky old theories about a Celtic genocide have long been put to rest. The Germanic tribes, the Vikings, assimilated with the local population and life went on. Trade continued as it always had, so did manufacture- and these things pre-dated the Romans, too, incidentally, as did the roads that Rome liked to take credit for.

The idea that Rome brought peace, prosperity and the good life was Roman propaganda and the idea that Rome being gone led to mass suffering is, likewise.

I'm certain the wars that followed in Britain did genuinely improve life for the population after the Romans left right? Of course there is exaggeration in how good life was under the Romans and how bad it became after, but the fact is that life was better before the end of Pax Romana and worse after.

Also Britain didn't have nowhere near as bad the other former Roman provinces did after the end of Pax Romana but there was still a lot of chaos for a long period of time, a lot of unrest and fighting.

 
So what are you saying? 

What I'm saying is that there is no evidence that Cyrodill right now is doing badly in terms of trade, governement, administration, unrest etc. It's been decades since the Thalmor war, I'm fairly certain that by now they could rebuild from the devastation caused during that period.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 20 juillet 2012 - 09:36 .

[Giggles_Manically]

From where it stands right now at the START of the game:

The Empire: Cyrodil, High Rock, Half of Skyrim, and Morrowind.
Out of all of them only High Rock can be said to still be running okay.

Thalmor: Alinor, Valenwood, and Elswyr
Their main province was not even touched during the war.

Neutral: Hammerfall, and Blackmarsh.
One of whom hates the Empire as much as they hate the Thalmor.

I would LOVE siding with the Empire again since I spent 4 games holding it up.
But as it is, it seriously has slipped into a shadow of its former self.

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
I'm certain the wars that followed in Britain did genuinely improve life for the population after the Romans left right? Of course there is exaggeration in how good life was under the Romans and how bad it became after, but the fact is that life was better before the end of Pax Romana and worse after.

Well let's see.  The Britons immediately began dismantling Roman temples and using the stone for paving while they went back to their native wattle and daub housing.  Latin made no impact on the local dialect whatsoever that anyone can tell, whereas the Anglo-Saxon and Norse obviously did.  It looks like the Britons said "good riddance."

It was previously believed that Londinium collapsed.  Now, through more recent excavations, they have discovered a thriving Anglo Saxon settlement that was contiguous with Roman London.

Also Britain didn't have nowhere near as bad the other former Roman provinces did after the end of Pax Romana but there was still a lot of chaos for a long period of time, a lot of unrest and fighting.

This isn't true.  There was more continuity than disruption, also in Gaul and Germany.  This is all beside the fact that there were civilizations outside the Roman sphere who were doing just fine without them and didn't even notice the so-called Fall of Rome, except for maybe having to go further to trade their minerals and slaves.

 
What I'm saying is that there is no evidence that Cyrodill right now is doing badly in terms of trade, governement, administration, unrest etc. It's been decades since the Thalmor war, I'm fairly certain that by now they could rebuild from the devastation caused during that period.

The government is not doing poorly?  They are losing Skyrim.  That's not like Rome losing Gaul, it's like western and eastern Rome suddenly turning on each other.  Then there is the whole Dark Brotherhood quest line.  They've lost all their provinces, so I don't imagine their trade is doing so great either.  The East Empire Company is so vulnerable that some local hicks in Skyrim are able to totally disrupt them.