37007 réponses à ce sujet

[Costin_Razvan]

Well let's see. The Britons immediately began dismantling Roman temples and using the stone for paving while they went back to their native wattle and daub housing. Latin made no impact on the local dialect whatsoever that anyone can tell, whereas the Anglo-Saxon and Norse obviously did. It looks like the Britons said "good riddance."

It was previously believed that Londinium collapsed. Now, through more recent excavations, they have discovered a thriving Anglo Saxon settlement that was contiguous with Roman London.

That our historical knowledge is lacking quite severely after the Roman departure tells me a bundle about that situation in the land.

This isn't true. There was more continuity than disruption, also in Gaul and Germany. This is all beside the fact that there were civilizations outside the Roman sphere who were doing just fine without them and didn't even notice the so-called Fall of Rome, except for maybe having to go further to trade their minerals and slaves.

So you mean the constant wars between the tribes that started to settle in France and Spain and who constantly fought one another had no impact whatsoever on the welfare of the people living in those regions. Wars that then expanded into Germany and other regions? Really?

[Laser Beam]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

The problem for Tamriel is that its not in the dark ages, its heading more towards an era where things are going to stagnate.

People are focused on war, and survival, not upon great technological leaps.
Look at Skyrim.
There are no cities or forts that dont look a thousand years old.

Also Addai is right, Dark Ages is just a term that Rome centered historians love using.
There was no dark age in the Middle East, and many thinkers did continue.

They just were not united under on banner anymore.

There was surely a Dark Age throughout Europe. Just look at the contrast in thought between that time and Renaissance. And how that period compares to the Ancient Greeks.

[Addai]

greengoron89 wrote...

Heh, I've been waiting three games to take the snooty bastards down a peg - hated the damn Empire and their smarmy supporters since day one. Even more so now that the Septim bloodline is no more. I'll never join the Legion in Skyrim ever again.

Oh, empire lovers need not despair.  Bethesda loves the empire, too, so there will always be stuffed shirt imperials running around trying to tell everyone what to do.  More people will just be flipping them the bird and more openly.

@ Laser Beam:  Don't get me started on how people go on about the Renaissance.  More puffery.  The Enlightenment was full of ****, I can't believe people still hold on to that outlook.

Modifié par Addai67, 20 juillet 2012 - 10:05 .

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
That our historical knowledge is lacking quite severely after the Roman departure tells me a bundle about that situation in the land.

No it doesn't.  Our ability to excavate in London is very limited due to its continuous occupation.  Written records aren't the be-all end-all.  For one thing, they're full of lies.  I trust the archaeological record more, though all sources are important of course.

[So you mean the constant wars between the tribes that started to settle in France and Spain and who constantly fought one another had no impact whatsoever on the welfare of the people living in those regions. Wars that then expanded into Germany and other regions? Really?

What tribes are you talking about in France and Spain?  There weren't "tribes" in France since before Julius Caesar.  The Visigothic kingdom took over for Rome.  Charlemagne was in direct continuity.  I don't see any huge disruption at all, just more of the same.

Fascinating as this is, it's all o/t and we should probably drop it.  Also since we're never going to agree on this point.  To you, Rome being gone qualifies as a disaster.  To me it's a good start. 

[Costin_Razvan]

No it doesn't. Our ability to excavate in London is very limited due to its continuous occupation. Written records aren't the be-all end-all. For one thing, they're full of lies. I trust the archaeological record more, though all sources are important of course.

That we don't have written records speaks of chaos in the region, chaos is not a good thing no matter what you say.

Of course they are full of lies, so what of it? We've been able to successfully tell the truth from fiction.

What tribes are you talking about in France and Spain? There weren't "tribes" in France since before Julius Caesar. The Visigothic kingdom took over for Rome. Charlemagne was in direct continuity. I don't see any huge disruption at all, just more of the same.

Fascinating as this is, it's all o/t and we should probably drop it. Also since we're never going to agree on this point. To you, Rome being gone qualifies as a disaster. To me it's a good start.

Franks, Vandals, Alans, Huns, Burgundians.You forget these guys?

That from chaos and war might arrise prosperity isn't surprising and it did eventually happen but it took centuries. You think life was good during that time?

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 20 juillet 2012 - 10:20 .

[Addai]

You're working on outdated assumptions, Costin. The graves of "Dark Ages" nobles are just as rich, in both quantity and variety (indicating international commerce) as those before and after them. And once again, the assumption that there was no war or poverty or suffering under Roman rule is laughable.

Anyway, TES... for people who are Morrowind fans, you might be interested in a very good fanfiction piece that was posted in the lore forums, which is meant to be an imperial census of the Morrowind houses after the Vvardenfell disaster. It's fanfiction, but is an homage to the kind of things that developers used to post under anonymous RP names and it makes for a fun read. I'll try to find the url.  edit-  Here it is.

Modifié par Addai67, 20 juillet 2012 - 10:32 .

[Joy Divison]

Reading Costin and Addai reminds me of the time I studied for my PhD exams when I had piles of books with authors and their respective theories insisting they were right while their scholarly opponents were wrong


Whatever Rome might have been (and people often treat it as a static entity when it was many different things in different places at different times, i.e it's hard to compare Romania and the southern British Isles), I think it is quite clear in Skyrim the "Empire" has outlived its usefulness.

@Addai - I think Costin is saying Roman rule generally brought stability, which is not quite the same as peace and prosperity.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 20 juillet 2012 - 10:44 .

[Splinter Cell 108]

termokanden wrote...

Splinter Cell 108 wrote...

If I wanted to make a character specialized in Smithing, Alchemy and Enchanting, how should I arrange the perks? Also with which tree should I start, I'd say alchemy but I don't know if starting with enchanting is best.

I'd start with smithing.

Smithing: Either go left or right through the tree. With Dawnguard, Dragonbone will become the ultimate in weaponry. Until then, Daedric weapons are best. The best LIGHT armor is Dragonscale, and the best HEAVY armor is Daedric. Draw your own conclusions about which path is best for you. I like heavy personally, and it's a tremendous help that you get Dwarven smithing as it's a really good way to level smithing.

Alchemy: I pick all the perks that provide bonuses for beneficial potions first. If it's to max out your gear, those perks are all you need and it's entirely obvious what you should pick.

Enchanting: The middle path is where you want to go. Max out the first skill and go up the middle until you reach the double enchantment perk. The left and right paths are OK, but those can wait.

Thanks I'll do that once I start my new Imperial character. 

[termokanden]

Joy Divison wrote...

Reading Costin and Addai reminds me of the time I studied for my PhD exams when I had piles of books with authors and their respective theories insisting they were right while their scholarly opponents were wrong

Heh, it just isn't academia without drama. Trust me, I know

[Addai]

Joy Divison wrote...
@Addai - I think Costin is saying Roman rule generally brought stability, which is not quite the same as peace and prosperity.

Yeah, well, the word "overrated" comes to mind.    As far as the Romans go, I mean, not in general.  Rebellions, conscriptions, having to fight Rome's wars for them... not to mention taxes and slavery...  there is a reason why Rome had to keep fighting to maintain its rule.

Oh, something that might bear on High Rock- in Lord of Souls, it says that the Thalmor have been murdering Altmer refugees in Sentinel (Hammerfell) and Balfiera (Iliac Bay, High Rock).  All of the murdered people have mixed blood or political assocations against the Dominion.  I can't imagine the Bretons are too happy about that, being mixed blood themselves.  So I think if the Thalmor were not obsessed with Talos and had decided to pick on High Rock instead of Skyrim, the Bretons would be no happier than the Nords about the empire cooperating with them.  Other than that, we really know zilch about the situation inside High Rock.

Oh... I also think I found a lore reason to do Eola's quest.  The old Nords consider Arkay a trickster god (Orkey) and don't like him.  I'm roleplaying my character as the descendant of Sai, the god of luck, with more of a Skaal outlook than other Nords.  She's kind of paladin in tendencies but maybe I can fudge with that.  

Modifié par Addai67, 21 juillet 2012 - 12:40 .

[Joy Divison]

Ah, the anti-Romaness is in full bloom   For every slave and vagrant press-ganged, there were plenty of folks who lived well beyond the city's borders who fashioned themselves as Romans and enlisted to fight wars they felt were their own.

I do agree stability is generally overrated - it overlaps somewhat with stultifying conservatism and requires stronger authoritative oversight to maintain it then I find palatable - but there is something to be said when farmers can plant their crops and be reasonably certain they can harvest them in exchange for a tax or merchants can travel roads relatively free of highwaymen in echange for paying a toll.

Of course, stability does not mean no succession crises, religious upheavals, the intrusions of centralized political officials, and other random calamities, it just means your appointment calander won't require as many corss-outs, reschedules, and cancellations. 

[Addai]

Yes, my character is also a werewolf and I did think about that, you "feed" regularly too if you use Beast Form. I might turn on Eola, too, though a lot of you seem to like her which got me curious.

@ Joy- I know what you're saying, but still dispute the idea that on the borders, Rome's exit was calamitous.  For one thing, their empire was long in decline and presence in Europe waning.  The Romans were becoming "barbarians" and vice versa.  The process was a lot more organic than is usually credited.  Not that there weren't wars, but that I don't think the early medieval were any more or less traumatic than those that went before, when Rome was trying to cling to its power.  And I do think that has some bearing on TES in that the empire clinging to its old power is doing more harm than good to its provinces.

Modifié par Addai67, 21 juillet 2012 - 01:09 .

[billy the squid]

Joy Divison wrote...

Ah, the anti-Romaness is in full bloom   For every slave and vagrant press-ganged, there were plenty of folks who lived well beyond the city's borders who fashioned themselves as Romans and enlisted to fight wars they felt were their own.

I do agree stability is generally overrated - it overlaps somewhat with stultifying conservatism and requires stronger authoritative oversight to maintain it then I find palatable - but there is something to be said when farmers can plant their crops and be reasonably certain they can harvest them in exchange for a tax or merchants can travel roads relatively free of highwaymen in echange for paying a toll.

Of course, stability does not mean no succession crises, religious upheavals, the intrusions of centralized political officials, and other random calamities, it just means your appointment calander won't require as many corss-outs, reschedules, and cancellations. 

That's how I see the Empire in Cyrodiil. It bound the disperate provinces of Tamriel under one banner, and provided stability and allowed prosperity to florish. However, we've also seen internal strife and corruption as well as weak Emperors and wars of succession. Like the real world Roman Empire, the Empire in Tamriel seems to be at the nadir of it's power.

It's collapse doesn't neccessarily precipitate a new Dark Age in Tamriel, Indeed Gaul (France) carried on many of the tradditions of Rome after the Empire collapsed, The Byzantine Empire did too. It was actually that stagnation which ultimately caused the Byzantines fall aswell.

I think I've said before, but whilst the Empire was a force for "good" now, it looks like binding Skyrim to it will simply allow it to limp on, until the next Thalmor onslaught. Especially as the battle of Red Ring's outcome was only possible with Nordic and Redguard re inforcements. With the the Redguard severing ties with the Empire, I don't think Nordic re inforcements would do much good. Rather I think Cyrodiil's fall is a forgone conclusion, Skyrim's not so much. Especially if the Thalmor have to fight in a hostile enviroment, and the Nords are galvanised by the idea of fighting for their homes and culture. An alliance with the Redguard of Hammerfell also seems more likely if Skyrim becomes independant of the Empire.

Modifié par billy the squid, 21 juillet 2012 - 01:17 .

[The Hierophant]

greengoron89 wrote...

Eola is definitely an excellent companion - probably the best mage companion (that I've used, anyway), and she has a soothing voice and is kind of easy of the eyes, too... for a cannibalistic psychopath.

Acquiring her as a follower though requires you to perform one of the most evil acts in the game - so best follower in the game or not, she and her Coven die 99% of the time.

So does this describe your feelings on Eola?

Modifié par The Hierophant, 21 juillet 2012 - 01:23 .

[Addai]

The Morthal vampires have raw meat all over their tables. So do the Thalmor, BTW. I think the devs are daring you to loot it. "Mmm, mmm, venison.. I hope it's venison..."

[Giggles_Manically]

My Orc may be a werewolf BUT like Draco in Dragonheart said:
"I chew, but I never swallow"

I wish my Orc was voiced by Sean Connery.

[The Hierophant]

greengoron89 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

greengoron89 wrote...

Eola is definitely an excellent companion - probably the best mage companion (that I've used, anyway), and she has a soothing voice and is kind of easy of the eyes, too... for a cannibalistic psychopath.

Acquiring her as a follower though requires you to perform one of the most evil acts in the game - so best follower in the game or not, she and her Coven die 99% of the time.

So does this describe your feelings on Eola?

Well played, matey - well played.

In truth, I just seem to have a thing for Breton girls in general, and also "crazy" girls - I count Muiri, Ingun-Black-Briar, Serana, and Astrid among my favorite ladies of Skyrim along with Eola, and all of them are nuttier than a squirrel.

Ah, I almost forgot Ysolda (the drug dealer), Jenassa, and Aela - they're all quite... interesting as well.

Lol  i married Ysolda in my last playthrough, but i wish you could marry Ingun Black-Briar though.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 21 juillet 2012 - 01:56 .

[Giggles_Manically]

I wish you could wipe out the Black-Briar family.

I would love seeing Maven's face when she got dragged off to jail.
I would have done the Thieves Guild, and Dark Brotherhood questline differently.

Instead of ignoring, or just doing one mission to wipe them out:
Have a long counter questline where you break either guild in the province.

It would have been so fun to play like an expy of a 1930's cop, or someone taking on an assassins guild.
Ah what could have been.

[The Hierophant]

greengoron89 wrote...

^Ingun's a sweet girl... who has a disturbing obsession with poisoning animals and watching them die. Something tells me she'll "upgrade" from animals sooner or later, as is typical with people who torture and kill animals in such a cold, calculated manner.

Hmm, perhaps I should initiate her into the Dark Brotherhood - she wants to "ply her talents in darker circles", after all. XD

The thing about Ingun is that she has an unholy combination of the dotty, demure type personalities which is my kryptonite.(Sadly i agree with your assessment on her, but she's so cute.) Remember Sibbi Black-Briar's ex fiancee whom he had you locate for him, she's also on my wishlist for marriage.

[The Hierophant]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I wish you could wipe out the Black-Briar family.

I would love seeing Maven's face when she got dragged off to jail.
I would have done the Thieves Guild, and Dark Brotherhood questline differently.

Instead of ignoring, or just doing one mission to wipe them out:
Have a long counter questline where you break either guild in the province.

It would have been so fun to play like an expy of a 1930's cop, or someone taking on an assassins guild.
Ah what could have been.

Sibbi & Maven are the biggest offenders, even though you can't kill Maven you can kill the former.