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[Costin_Razvan]

Joy: Sometimes I'd honestly like to think that the great historical minds of our era don't argue over their ideas like schoolchildren. Of course I'd be very wrong.

Addai: My argument was that life was in general better before the end of Pax Romana before it gradually got worse before and after the end of the Western Roman Empire. The reality is that during Pax Romana the people inside the Empire's borders enjoyed great prosperity and stability as Joy put it.

Look at the period that Pax Romana lasted and then tell me of the conflicts that occurred compared to those after that period ( specifically after Aurelius ), then look at the conflicts that occurred after Aurelius until the end of the Western Roman Empire and finally look at the conflicts after the end of the Western Roman Empire.

That will paint you the following picture: Before the end of Aurelius the largest military conflicts where those waged against the Dacians, which the Romans eventually conquered and after that period began the decline of the Empire which was marked by large tribal invasions ( notably: Franks, Vandals, Visigoths and Huns ) which caused much devastation and death inside the Empire and the eventually abdication of the last Emperor.

Following the abdication and the complete destruction Roman Authority we enter a period with few detailed historical texts, this to me is the largest argument that it was a time of chaos and even though it might not have been as bleak as it is suggested the reality is that there was a lot of knowledge gained by the Romans lost in that period, for instance medical knowledge that was lost during this period in west and preserved in the Byzantine Empire.

The Roman Empire had one of the best medical systems of it's age, after the fall of Rome a system that was as effective was not implemented until the 18th century.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 21 juillet 2012 - 03:11 .

[Addai]

Good god, you'd think the Romans just handed out candy and grandfatherly pats.

Of course, a lot of players who came to TES as of Oblivion think the same thing about the empire, not remembering the giant f'ing robot.

Anyway, enough of this diversion.

[Addai]

greengoron89 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

The thing about Ingun is that she has an unholy combination of the dotty, demure type personalities which is my kryptonite.(Sadly i agree with your assessment on her, but she's so cute.) Remember Sibbi Black-Briar's ex fiancee whom he had you locate for him, she's also on my wishlist for marriage.

Muiri is very similar in regards to the dotty/demure personality, albeit in a slightly different way - Ingun is a budding serial killer/assassin, while Muiri is extremely vindictive (Eric Cartman level). If there's one thing you will learn about Muiri by the end of Mourning Never Comes, it's that you DON'T. F***. WITH MUIRI.

Oh, the Leliana phenomenon.  That type pushes my buttons too, but in an entirely different manner.

[Giggles_Manically]

There is a lot to be said, but without the Septim's the Empire is not the Empire.

I would join a group like the Stormcloak's if my country helped in a war, only to be told that:
A) You cant worship like you want
You have to pay more taxes to fund a man who signed away your culture
C) You have your old enemies kidnapping, torturing, and murdering your countrymen
D) You are told that you cant do anything about it

The Imperial's were morons, who sold out Redguard's and the Nord's just to save their own asses.
If an Empire cant even protect its own people, it does not have the right to be called an Empire.

[Costin_Razvan]

Good god, you'd think the Romans just handed out candy and grandfatherly pats.

The Romans fought and conquered, they pillaged and raped and brutally occupied certain territories, and what of it? What makes that so special compared to others that have done the exact same thing? and perhaps even worse? To me it's irrelevant.

The real importance of the Roman Republic and then Empire was the creation of a central European authority that took, preserved and improved on not only on the Greek knowledge and culture but others as well. The Roman used the tools of those they conquered and improved upon them, the gladius was a Spanish sword for instance.

There's a saying: The Romans defeated the Greeks but the Greeks conquered the Romans. It's in reference to culture and knowledge.

The Roman Republic and Empire helped preserved and improve on human knowledge far more then anyone else did in Europe and after the fall of the West we see a major loss of knowledge in all fields and even stagnation. That was the real loss that came with the end of the Western Roman Empire.

In contrast the Arabs achieved great advancements until their own decline using the knowledge that the Byzantines preserved, however after their own decline quite a lot of knowledge was lost to history. That it was not the tribes of Europe that used and improved on the Roman knowledge and instead the Arabs who did it tells me everything I need to know of the worth of those that ended the West Roman Empire.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 21 juillet 2012 - 03:38 .

[The Hierophant]

greengoron89 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

The thing about Ingun is that she has an unholy combination of the dotty, demure type personalities which is my kryptonite.(Sadly i agree with your assessment on her, but she's so cute.) Remember Sibbi Black-Briar's ex fiancee whom he had you locate for him, she's also on my wishlist for marriage.

Muiri is very similar in regards to the dotty/demure personality, albeit in a slightly different way - Ingun is a budding serial killer/assassin, while Muiri is extremely vindictive (Eric Cartman level). If there's one thing you will learn about Muiri by the end of Mourning Never Comes, it's that you DON'T. F***. WITH MUIRI.

Lmao, oh boy this reminds me of that SP episode where Cartman spent most of the episode being trolled only to dish out 100 fold at the end.

[Olaf_de_IJsbeer]

greengoron89 wrote...

Muiri is very similar in regards to the dotty/demure personality, albeit in a slightly different way - Ingun is a budding serial killer/assassin, while Muiri is extremely vindictive (Eric Cartman level). If there's one thing you will learn about Muiri by the end of Mourning Never Comes, it's that you DON'T. F***. WITH MUIRI.

Except that the PC serves as the agent of her vengeance, so you are perfectly capable of f*cking with Muiri. =D

And if Skyrim were anything like real life, in other ways as well if you decide to marry her, I guess.

Modifié par Olaf_de_IJsbeer, 21 juillet 2012 - 12:52 .

[Joy Divison]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Joy: Sometimes I'd honestly like to think that the great historical minds of our era don't argue over their ideas like schoolchildren. Of course I'd be very wrong.

True 'dat.  But a necessary evil for the progression of the discipline.  History is a lot like science in a way...without people to stir the ****, new developments/ways of thinking would never come about.  What annoys me most is the righteousness and arrogance the zealots imbue in their arguments 

I'm not very well versed in TES lore because Skyrim in the first game I've played in the series, but I find it very difficult to have any loyalties let alone sympathies for the Empire.  I only did the questline once and even roleplaying as a Altmer who blamed the stormcloaks for being on the chopping block in Helgan, the Civil War questline still made make stomach turn.

The Emperor's surrender -- that's how it should be interpreted -- after wiping out the Aldmeri's armies occupying the capital by selling out Hammerfell and Talos is damning evidence that it is unworthy.

[Olaf_de_IJsbeer]

Without at least a military alliance, the provinces that are not yet under the heel of the Dominion will likely be curbstomped one by one. Unless the 'free' provinces can be convinced to band together after the Empire falls as a likely consequence of a Stormcloak victory, I'm not entirely convinced that backing the Empire is the wrong choice.

[Joy Divison]

Olaf_de_IJsbeer wrote...

Without at least a military alliance, the provinces that are not yet under the heel of the Dominion will likely be curbstomped one by one. Unless the 'free' provinces can be convinced to band together after the Empire falls as a likely consequence of a Stormcloak victory, I'm not entirely convinced that backing the Empire is the wrong choice.

Skyrim's geographical position makes a potential Aldmeri conquest a difficult proposition.  How are the Aldmeri going to ship the large number of troops -- and supply them?  Water is far cheaper and easier than an overland route, but the Summerset Isles are a *long* ways away and the Sea of Ghosts is treacherous even without a Skyrim naval presence.  Skyrim's difficult geogrpahy and the innate intransigence of the locals make it ideal for a guerilla campaign against a would be political overseer.   High Rock, cut off from the Empire, would make a natural ally against the Thalmor and even if relations with Hammerfell are icy at present, they too are a potential natural ally vs both the Thalmor and the Empire.

The only argument I can see staying with the Empire is not military but economic.  In my tour of Skyrim I don't see much of the way of a diversified or robust economy and it seems the trade pattern is that manufactured goods mostly enter Skyrim whereas raw materials and silver exit.  But even former enemies have historically been quick to pick up trade once hostitilies cease; indeed it is difficult to cease smuggling and the black market even during open war.

[Olaf_de_IJsbeer]

Good points from both of you. If I ever do another playthrough of Skyrim, it'll probably be the Stormcloaks I'll FUS RO DAH for.

[Costin_Razvan]

 

 
True 'dat.  But a necessary evil for the progression of the discipline.  History is a lot like science in a way...without people to stir the ****, new developments/ways of thinking would never come about.  What annoys me most is the righteousness and arrogance the zealots imbue in their arguments  

I stand accused and guilty of the crime.

In regards to the Empire of Tamriel. At the time of the peace treaty the Empire had lost half it's entire military might defeating the Thalmor armies outside of the Imperial City, however the Dominion still had more forces that they could bring to bear. They had control of the southern part of Cyrodill and Hammerfell and prolonging the war would have done to southern Cyrodill the exact same thing that happened to Hammerfell, assuming they could even win. The Imperial armies had suffered a lot worse then the Dominion ones despite the former's victory, they simply could not move on.

After the peace treaty was signed and another five years of fighting the Redguards the Dominion still only lost a third of their military might. It's clear to me that the Empire was not in a position to really win against the Dominion.

It also should be noted that the war occured a mere three years after Titus Mede took power, that he managed to unite the Imperial provinces under him and actually create a cohesive fighting force is in itself remarkable to me but it's obvious the Empire then was weak.

Now however? Most of the Imperial armies are gathering on the border with Cyrodill expecting the fighting to begin again, Tullius mentions this as the reason he only has one under-equiped legion to fight Ulfric. From my perspective it will not be indepent nations that will against the Dominion due to a simple reason: Military Cohesion.

A single army led by one leader will always be in a better position then three or four different armies led by different leaders. The Thalmor were the ones to instigate the civil war using Ulfric and if I was in their position if the Empire split into different provinces I would just manipulate them against each other.

EDIT: Actually after retaking the Imperial City the Empire had lost three entire legions and the rest had lost half their men, so I realized they lost more then just half their entire military might.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 21 juillet 2012 - 03:58 .

[Joy Divison]

Costin - Weakness works both ways, the Empire's correlation of forces vis-a-vis the Thalmor were not as bleak to justify submitting to a humiliating peace which willingly gave away Hammerfell, threatened internal disintegration, and allowed the Thalmor free reign within its own borders.

Yes their remaining legions were seriously understrengthed and yes the Redgaurds had not suffered nearly as badly which was why Hammerfell eventually expelled the invaders. But as long as Hammerfell remained in the game, the Thalmor simply did not possess the military strength to successfully conclude campaign on both fronts. The position the Empire was in was roughly what the Soviets faced after destroying the German 6th Army at Stalingrad. Yes, it was a great victory, but the cost in manpower and resources to the Soviets for that victory was tremendous - perhaps over a million Soviet casualties. Its divisions by 1945 were far below nominal strength - if memory serves me they had less than half their paper combat strength (perhaps 4000) - what allowed for the political and eventual military victory was the will to continue fighting knowing that whatever losses they incurred, provided the Western Allies remained in the war, the Germans, regardless of how well they fought, did not have the military strength to impose an unacceptable peace to Moscow.

The Thalmor perspective will say that they "left" Hammerfell because their political objective of detaching it from the Empire was secured. That's pretty funny. Why did it wait 5 years after achieving its supposed desired poltiical objective?  Many apologists in the United States will claim we "left" Vietnam because Washington secured its political objectives of an independent South Vietnam in 1973. The "leaving" argument tends to be much more convincing when it is done early after military victory rather than late in the wake of military defeat.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 21 juillet 2012 - 04:36 .

[Costin_Razvan]

I'm sure after leaving one province in the dust, slaughtering people in the other, and letting Thalmor drag away hundreds of citizens to torture and death, the Empire will easily be able to regain the respect and loyalty of the people they treated like garbage for two decades

The respect and loyalty of the people outside of the army in the situation of war is irrelevant. It's the army they need to focus on. If they want peace they should execute all the Stormcloaks.

Joy Divison : Vastly different situations. While the Russians lost one million men and women so to did the Axis lose over eight hundred thousand troops. Resource wise it was the Axis who paid the heaviest price of that battle. They simply had less troops and resources compared to the Russians.

For the Dominion and Empire it's reversed. It was the Dominion who had more men and resources and not the Empire. The Thalmor in the entire war, the five years of Hammerfell, only lost a third of it's military while the Empire lost over half it's armies to win the capital city. To me it's clear it was the Dominion who was a in a position of strength even after that battle and not the Empire.

As for the Dominion winning on both fronts: They didn't need to. They could just pin the Redguards in Hammerfell and send a new army into Cyrodill.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 21 juillet 2012 - 05:00 .

[Costin_Razvan]

I said their Legions are massed on the border, I did not say it would be sufficient to actually fight and win against the Thalmor without the support of Skyrim.

I'm also certain that the vast natural resources of Skyrim are all worthless in the case of war right?

You argue the Empire is weak, alright then give me a sound military argument how exactly Skyrim, Cyrodill, High Rock and Morrowind would win on their own against the Thalmor, I'm waiting.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 21 juillet 2012 - 05:32 .

[Addai]

Costin- where are you getting the figure that the Dominion only lost a third of its forces in the Great War? The book The Great War says they lost their entire strike force in Cyrodiil at Red Ring, and incurred great losses in Hammerfell as well.

Mede didn't unite anyone. Much of the empire was gone by the time he took power, and the rest was just coasting along.

[Costin_Razvan]

Addai67 wrote...

Costin- where are you getting the figure that the Dominion only lost a third of its forces in the Great War? The book The Great War says they lost their entire strike force in Cyrodiil at Red Ring, and incurred great losses in Hammerfell as well.

Mede didn't unite anyone. Much of the empire was gone by the time he took power, and the rest was just coasting along.

http://elderscrolls....wiki/Fourth_Era 

The provinces will do better if they shed the Empire and the Thalmor and rebuild themselves from the ground up, free of any foreign influence. Cyrodiil and its snooty politicians and Legionnaires can stuff it.

How the hell will they fight the Thalmor as independent provinces if the Empire breaks apart?

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 21 juillet 2012 - 05:52 .

[Addai]

Yeah, um, first of all it says that they lost nearly a third of their Hammerfell invasion force. They lost their *entire* Cyrodiil strike force. Second of all, the wiki is a notoriously sketchy source of information. Unless you have something in-game, I wouldn't rely on it.