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[Costin_Razvan]

It simply says invasion not specifically related to Hammerfell.

What there is an absolute certainty is that the Imperial armies were trashed in retaking the capital.

 
By forming an alliance like we've been talking about for the last page or so. 

Oh so after a supposed end of the Empire which would be marked by a series of bloody civil war you are claiming that people will just fight along side each other after they just finished killing each other? Seriously that's your idiotic logic?

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 21 juillet 2012 - 06:11 .

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

It simply says invasion not specifically related to Hammerfell.

What there is an absolute certainty is that the Imperial armies were trashed in retaking the capital.

"The Battle of the Red Ring results in the complete destruction of the Aldmeri army in Cyrodiil"
"Having been fought to a standstill by the Redguards, the Aldmeri
Dominion completely withdraws from Hammerfell. The Aldmeri Dominion lost
nearly a third of its invasion force during the process."

They lost their entire strike force in Cyrodiil, and then they lost another third of what was left in Hammerfell.  We don't know if they have reserves in Alinor, because the Medes' intelligence service was always balls and he refused to listen to the Blades before they were all executed.

Oh so after a supposed end of the Empire which would be marked by a series of bloody civil war you are claiming that people will just fight along side each other after they just finished killing each other? Seriously that's your idiotic logic?

The empire is broken and it's now leaderless, since I'm sure the DB quest line will be made canon.  So banking on the empire is banking completely on a question mark.  If you read the companion novels, it's obvious that the Mede dynasty was weak from the first.  These aren't the Septims anymore.  It's not a matter of numbers, it's leadership and resolve.  Mede II lost his nerve and bowed to political pressure at home, and in 30 years has shown no signs that he intends to fight- at least fight anyone but his own people.

Modifié par Addai67, 21 juillet 2012 - 06:08 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Who said anything about Cyrodiil being a part of that alliance? I just stated that Cyrodiil can stuff it. What I'm talking about is an alliance between Skyrim, Hammerfell, and possibly High Rock - something I've also stated multiple times.

I really don't care for repeating myself over and over, so try to keep up with what people are actually talking about in the discussion at hand if you would.

You think they will leave just like that? You think that Ulfric will govern Skyrim without any resistance to his rule after the civil war and based on what do you claim they would even ally? Oh nice concept ignoring the Thalmor who instigated the civil war and all, I'm sure they would just back and do nothing right?

 
The empire is broken and it's now leaderless, since I'm sure the DB quest line will be made canon. 

If someone wanted to assassinate the Emperor then he had a plan to take over. I'm not talking of that fool that asks you to kill Mede. There is no reason whatsoever that if Mede dies someone else will take over and will just impose strong leadership, in fact that person might have very well been planning this for a while.

Anyway you stated yourself that Bethesda loves the Empire and won't kill it.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 21 juillet 2012 - 06:19 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Political manipulation mean anything to you? If the Thalmor have any brains whatsoever, which they do, they will just sit back and instigate wars between the different former provinces of the Empire.

Once these provinces bleed each other out the Thalmor can just stomp the remnants. The game makes a point the Thalmor do use political manipulation, and they use it well.

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
If someone wanted to assassinate the Emperor then he had a plan to take over. I'm not talking of that fool that asks you to kill Mede. There is no reason whatsoever that if Mede dies someone else will take over and will just impose strong leadership, in fact that person might have very well been planning this for a while.

Anyway you stated yourself that Bethesda loves the Empire and won't kill it.

Maybe he had a plan, but whether it will work or not is a question mark.  Seriously read the novels.  The Medes had one hand tied behind their backs from day one.  Mede I had an advisor who for ten years plotted to hand the IC over to Clavicus Vile.  At first he just blindly trusted the guy, but even when he got suspicious, he wasn't able to do anything about it because the Elder Council supported this guy.  Mede was forced to accept a nutter and traitor as his right hand because he had no political support to do otherwise.  And this was the original Mede who was supposedly all badass.  Given that we know the empire has crumbled from there, losing one province after another, the idea that Mede II accepted the WGC out of purely pragmatic military terms is unlikely.  He bowed to political pressure from Cyrodiil nobles because otherwise they would have removed him- as they eventually do anyway.

So, why should Skyrim let itself be sold to the Dominion because Cyrodiil is a cesspit and can't find its ass with a magelight spell?  They are better off on their own.  Any time someone has stood and fought the Dominion, the Dominion has lost.  Any time someone has tried to play the Thalmor's political game, they've ended up with horker dung on their faces.  So Skyrim trusting the empire is foolish.  Either way, there are risks, but at least on their own they can evaluate what is best for Skyrim and not have to bleed for Cyrodiil's problems.

[Olaf_de_IJsbeer]

I really hope they'll release a DLC about the Dominion. Assaulting one measly fort and their embassy is simply not enough Thalmor head-cleaving action.

[billy the squid]

Olaf_de_IJsbeer wrote...

I really hope they'll release a DLC about the Dominion. Assaulting one measly fort and their embassy is simply not enough Thalmor head-cleaving action.

This so much. I like the political aspect of the civil wat and I'd love them to expand on it and go into more depth regarding the key players on the Thalmor side and Skyrim's view of the Redguard and their conflict with the Dominion.

Either that or a DLC which expands more on the Falmer and the possibility of them emerging and enslaving the surface dwellers of Skyrim.

[Olaf_de_IJsbeer]

I nearly forgot about Ancano. That guy had "REALLY FRICKIN' EVIL" written all over him.

"OMG ANCANO IZ TRY 2 DESTRUY DA WOLD!"

...you don't say?

[billy the squid]

Yeah, I want to see more of the key players in the Dominion, possibility of an invasion from the south etc. Not just someone like Ancano as just an aid to the Arch Mage. We could learn more of their purges from refugees, like we did when doing the main quest etc. Maybe I'm hoping for too much, but I'd certainly like a Thalmor centric DLC too.

[Addai]

They may hold off on developing the Dominion story line til TES VI. The provinces we haven't seen yet are all in the Dominion now, so we may get to see the destruction of the Thalmor from the inside, which I think would be pretty cool.

I do hope we get DLC that is more Nord focused. A return to Solstheim, or something with Nord history.

[Joy Divison]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I'm sure after leaving one province in the dust, slaughtering people in the other, and letting Thalmor drag away hundreds of citizens to torture and death, the Empire will easily be able to regain the respect and loyalty of the people they treated like garbage for two decades

The respect and loyalty of the people outside of the army in the situation of war is irrelevant. It's the army they need to focus on. If they want peace they should execute all the Stormcloaks.

Joy Divison : Vastly different situations. While the Russians lost one million men and women so to did the Axis lose over eight hundred thousand troops. Resource wise it was the Axis who paid the heaviest price of that battle. They simply had less troops and resources compared to the Russians.

For the Dominion and Empire it's reversed. It was the Dominion who had more men and resources and not the Empire. The Thalmor in the entire war, the five years of Hammerfell, only lost a third of it's military while the Empire lost over half it's armies to win the capital city. To me it's clear it was the Dominion who was a in a position of strength even after that battle and not the Empire.

As for the Dominion winning on both fronts: They didn't need to. They could just pin the Redguards in Hammerfell and send a new army into Cyrodill.

No, Addai is right.  The entire Cyrodill force was wiped out.  Red Ring was a costly battle but was the first time the Imperials could claim a legitmate military victory.

Why would any Breton, Nord, or Redguard have any faith in the political leadership of the Empire after it proved its military and political bankruptcy by submitting to the Thalmor at the *threat* it could reorganize another invasion force and reverse Red Ring?  As the Dominion had not proved its theoretical decisive military advatange yet on the battlefield, such a humilating peace is unnaceptable...especially damning in light of military events in Hammerfell afterward.

[Costin_Razvan]

Your alternative would be then? I've heard the many arguments of why the Empire sucks but I want a clear proposed alternative, not some half-assed explanation of a potential alliance between the provinces.

In regards to Hammerfell specifically, the fight years of fighting left the south completely devastated. A pyrrhic victory at best.

[wickedgoodreed]

Speaking of a dead horse - Arvak is pretty nifty.

I just got the twin souls perk and can now summon two of him! Too bad Serana doesn't actually take advantage of it or I would summon him/them more often...Always feels awkward to ride around while your follower trails behind.

Random question: Does the one-handed Savage Strike perk work with daggers? I'm trying to decide whether or not it would be worthwhile to take for a character that's primarily sneak based.

[blaidfiste]

 

[Joy Divison]

What a Nord should do when the events of Skyrim take place are not quite the same as what should have been done after Red Ring. I would never sign a peace treaty to an enemy power which gave it free reign to send its agents into my sovereign territory to seize, torture and execute my subjects/citizens for practicing their traditional way of life -- never. If such a treaty had to be signed, it would be done by some other collaborationist tool *after* military events proved resistance was impossible. I would have stuck with the Empire had it kept fighting after Red Ring.

As a Nord living in Skyrim, I would support the rebellion because as long as the Empire allows the Thalmor justiciers the right to abduct and execute any Nord for practicing their traditional beliefs, it is as if the Thalmor are already ruling Skyrim. Skyrim is not cursed with geography like Poland; if the Thalmor want to mount an expeditionary army in a distant far away land separated by oceans and enemies and actually try to supply and maintain it via unenviable supply lines, by all means let them try.

I do not hate the Empire or really believe things like Skyrim should be ruled by the Nords, but it is difficult to see the Empire at a steadfast and determined opponent of the Thalmor for which I as a Nord should put my hopes in.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 21 juillet 2012 - 11:58 .

[Costin_Razvan]

I do not hate the Empire or really believe things like Skyrim should be ruled by the Nords, but it is difficult to see the Empire at a steadfast and determined opponent of the Thalmor for which I as a Nord should put my hopes in.

There are other ways to deal with the problem though. In my personal view what a Nord should do is crush Ulfric's rebellion, recreate the Blades, kill the Emperor and then start waging a shadow war against the Thalmor. In the long run the Dragonborn could also take the throne for himself/herself or help someone with progressive views take it.

I never played a Nord so I can't say I really give a damn for them though, and the way I see the Redguards ( one of which I played ) is that they resent Mede for removing them from the Empire instead of fighting. I don't think they really hate the Empire as much as they hate it's leadership.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 22 juillet 2012 - 12:04 .

[billy the squid]

Half arsed potential alliances, because an alliance by two ideologically opposed factions would never happen in the face of purging and subjugation by the Dominion. It's the lesser of two evils. Nor is it half arsed or did the Communist totalitarian state not ally with the Capitalist west in world war 2? It's an alliance of convenience, nothing more. I don't expect any lasting alliance between the individual provinces of Tamriel, free of the Empire, for longer than is necessary to push back the Thalmor.

Both Skyrim and Hammerfell have an interest in seeing the Thalmor defeated, and unless Ulfric is unbelieavably short sighted, despite fighting in the Great War, he'd not forgo aiding Hammerfell, if it meant keeping the Thalmor out of Skyrim, especially considering the damage done to Southern Hammerfell. It's not paticularly altruistic, in fact it holds true to Ulfric's more nationalistic ideology. Safeguarding Skyrim from invasion even if it means entering a conflict outside it's borders.

The Empire has shown it draws troops from the provinces to defend Cyrodiil, unless there is a reason to deploy it's remaining strength in defence of the provinces ie: silver and other raw materials in Skyrim, Mede has shown himself as being more concerned with safguarding his heartlands. As any Emperor would. An independent set of states declares war with a partial eye to it's own security, the Empire levies taxation and troops to deploy where it sees fit. I don't see any give in that. In fact if it wasn't for the commander of the Legion station in Hammerfell, leaving a core of veterans behind, against orders, the conflict there could have taken a very different turn and the Redguard having no choice but to submit to the White-Gold Concordate.

Modifié par billy the squid, 22 juillet 2012 - 12:15 .

[Costin_Razvan]

I don't expect any lasting alliance between the individual provinces of Tamriel, free of the Empire, for longer than is necessary to push back the Thalmor.

That's the thing though. What if the Thalmor don't invade and just sit back to wait until the various nations start fighting each other? What then? They aren't above such a long term plan and in fact that's exactly what I would expect them to do.

I can't see anyone coming up with an invasion plan of the Dominion if the Empire breaks apart, after all the Dominion borders Cyrodill right now and I don't think the Imperial would try such an invasion if the entire empire breaks apart, in fact I'd suspect the Imperials would really resent the nords for the end of their empire.

Even if they do ally to invade the Dominion, what are the chances they would actually win?

EDIT: In regards to Hammerfell, I think it could be argued that a greater presence of redguard troops at the battle of the Capital city would have ensured a not so costly victory for Mede there.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 22 juillet 2012 - 12:57 .

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Your alternative would be then? I've heard the many arguments of why the Empire sucks but I want a clear proposed alternative, not some half-assed explanation of a potential alliance between the provinces.

In regards to Hammerfell specifically, the fight years of fighting left the south completely devastated. A pyrrhic victory at best.

It's only "half assed" because you prefer the notion of an empire that's long gone.  I'm not talking about a permanent alliance but a mutual defense treaty that says if one is attacked by the Dominion, the others will aid it.  As far as I'm concerned, the provinces can stay independent.  Why shouldn't they?  The empire's time has come and gone.  It never was very good at preventing the provinces from fighting each other, and Cyrodiil sure isn't doing anyone any good now, so there's nothing to lose.

As far as Hammerfell, what do you suggest they should have done?  Give up half their land and be occupied by the Dominion?  That sounds like a great plan.

[Yrkoon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
 In my personal view what a Nord should do is crush Ulfric's rebellion, recreate the Blades, kill the Emperor and then start waging a shadow war against the Thalmor. In the long run the Dragonborn could also take the throne for himself/herself or help someone with progressive views take it.

 Forgive me if you've already addressed this, but...

I'm with you on recreating the blades, eliminating the emperor and fighting a shadow war against the Aldmeri Dominion  But I don't understand   the  purpose of putting down Ulfric's rebellion.  Seems like a huge waste of time and resources that produces no immediate or long term benefits. There's not even a pragmatic advantage to doing so, since Ulfric is ridiculously charismatic with the Nords in Skyrim and allying yourself with him  only makes  beating the Imperial Legion and removing the Thalmor easier.

Ulfric could easily be dealt with afterwords...   when there's no longer a rebellion.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 22 juillet 2012 - 01:58 .