37007 réponses à ce sujet

[Barbarossa2010]

Well, I have to admit on my second playthrough, that not only did I spare Saadia, I gleefully slaughtered the goons who would dare attempt harm to such a fair damsel.  My Nord was fully justified of course, primarily because of:  http://steamcommunit...ls/?id=74909562 

...as opposed to any real meaningful reason.

First time through, it was apparent to my PC that not only was she full of s#!+, she was dramitically so.  Of course, that PC was a single visit to High Hrothgar removed from being a monk; the second one, not so much.

[The Hierophant]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

Well, I have to admit on my second playthrough, that not only did I spare Saadia, I gleefully slaughtered the goons who would dare attempt harm to such a fair damsel.  My Nord was fully justified of course, primarily because of:  http://steamcommunit...ls/?id=74909562 

...as opposed to any real meaningful reason.

First time through, it was apparent to my PC that not only was she full of s#!+, she was dramitically so.  Of course, that PC was a single visit to High Hrothgar removed from being a monk; the second one, not so much.

I can't blame you, all i was staring at was her maximum cleavage.

[termokanden]

Addai67 wrote...

So basically someone can get away with turning a city over to the Thalmor because she's a woman?

It has nothing to do with her gender.

What about their methods is objectionable? They take her back to Hammerfell for trial. Granted they are questioning random women, but they quickly realize these don't fit the description and let them go.

A quick look at any of Skyrim's many dungeons and it's not hard to imagine what a fair trial will be like. What exactly do you think they do to traitors? It's not exactly My Cousin Vinny. As for questioning random women, I'm thinking of what actually happened only a few centuries ago in our own little world, where innocent people were in some cases arrested for the crimes of others or for no real reason whatsoever, tortured and executed. Maybe these guys are the Friendly Inquisition, but I doubt it.

I don't really think she deserves to get away with it, but I weighed it against the unnecessarily cruel punishment that awaits and made my decision.

Modifié par termokanden, 06 août 2012 - 09:47 .

[Addai]

Cutlass Jack wrote...
So basically someone can get away with abducting and harassing redguard females because they are male? Because they drop the name of an organization you hate? Works both ways. There is zero evidence that their story is true. Or that they really will take her back to Hammerfel for a fair trial.

The evidence is that a) they're Alik'r.  Granted your PC may not know what that means, but any reasonably aware person in Tamriel would, and Saadia is lying and lying very badly.

Somehow I think that if I were to to turn over a city to the Thalmor, I might get a better reward than... living undercover as a tavern wench. Clearly Saadia benefitted in no way whatsoever if that story was true. Especially since she fled to the one country unfriendly to the Thalmor.

These are the Thalmor we're talking about here?  The reward for Valenwood capitulating to them was to have their population purged.

On the other hand Skyrim is the best place to flee to if her story is true.

Given both stories are fishy with no way to prove either, I chose to err on the side of the one who is minding her own business and clearly outnumbered by a group of hostile swordsmen.

Kematu's story is not fishy.  There is no way on Nirn that Saadia's story holds up.  It doesn't even pass a laughability test.

@ temorkanden- You don't know what sort of punishment would be meted out.  I'm sure it wouldn't be pleasant, but if what the Alik'r are alleging is true, her actions probably led to scores of deaths, torture and destruction.  Hammerfell's cities were laid waste to.  Kematu says that Taneth might have held out if not for her actions.

Modifié par Addai67, 06 août 2012 - 09:50 .

[termokanden]

I do however agree that she looks more than a bit guilty. Didn't believe her for a second.

[Giggles_Manically]

It really just does not add up if you look at Saadia's story.

IF she is telling the truth why flee Hammerfall?
Hammerfall is openly against the Thalmor, so she would be safer there.

Half of Skyrim is for the Empire, and the Thalmor have free reign there.
She is sitting in a city right on the edge of Imperial controlled territory.

Just not a strong case overall.

[Addai]

Basically I think the quest wasn't well written. The only way that it's ambiguous is if you don't know anything about what happened to Hammerfell, and the game doesn't present you with a lot of that unless you read the in-game books. Saadia at least should have given a better story, so that it wasn't so glaringly obvious that she's lying.

[termokanden]

I don't know, it still presents a good moral dilemma. Let someone go for a horrible crime, or turn them in so they can be tortured and killed.

To me, she also appears as a pathetic fool. It wouldn't surprise me if she was manipulated by the Thalmor. The fact that she can't lie to save her own life proves that she's not the sharpest tool in the shed. Well, either that or she's a real criminal mastermind somehow, but I certainly doubt that.

Modifié par termokanden, 06 août 2012 - 10:06 .

[Elhanan]

I have not explored the option, but it may be possible to kill the men in the cave, and still turn Saadia in to others staying in Rorikstead; saw them hanging around there afterwards in my last playthrough. But I stood by my original agreement, ate dinner and moved along elsewhere.

Q: Is the Psiijic Order actually in Skyrim? I started to follow the rep that visited the College with a past character, but was interrupted by a draconic attack on Winterhold.

[Cutlass Jack]

Addai67 wrote...

]The evidence is that a) they're Alik'r. Granted your PC may not know what that means, but any reasonably aware person in Tamriel would, and Saadia is lying and lying very badly.

That he said something and you believed it is not evidence. Its simply a case of one persons word against the other. Because there is no actual evidence available.

That you know a city fell to the Thalmor in Hammerfell is also not evidence that it happened due to Saadia purposely turning traitor. It would completely be within standard Thalmor operating proceedure to frame the person who was their biggest opposition there. Or they could have tortured the information out of her. They did both those things in Skyrim after all.

My personal (non character) belief is that both sides were telling the truth as they knew it, if slightly embellished. But a fair trial was never going to happen.

[Joy Divison]

Cutlass, you are aware that the whole purpose of having a law enforcement agency is so that everyday citizens do not have to personally investigate crimes scenes and have come on personal contact with empirical evidence to verify the claims of the state. That is also why there are things called trials and courts.

If you disagree with Hammerfell jurisprudence, that is one thing, but Saadia's story is utterly incredulous.

Addai is right, people are letting Saadia go because they dislike the methods of the Alik'r, not because Saadia's side of the story is more believable.

[Addai]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

That he said something and you believed it is not evidence. Its simply a case of one persons word against the other. Because there is no actual evidence available.

That you know a city fell to the Thalmor in Hammerfell is also not evidence that it happened due to Saadia purposely turning traitor. It would completely be within standard Thalmor operating proceedure to frame the person who was their biggest opposition there. Or they could have tortured the information out of her. They did both those things in Skyrim after all.

My personal (non character) belief is that both sides were telling the truth as they knew it, if slightly embellished. But a fair trial was never going to happen.

  I don't know how to explain this any more fully.  There is no possible way that someone's life would be in danger for speaking out against the Thalmor in Hammerfell, of all places.  And that is Saadia's story- no one is accusing her of it, she tells you that's what happened.  The evidence is simply knowing the situation in Hammerfell, the historical events that they're talking about, and simple deduction.

Even if it were true (which I repeat, is ludicrous), you don't send Alik'r warriors on a simple assassin mission.  They simply wouldn't do that.

But if you want to insist that there's actual ambiguity here... ok, whatever. 

[The Hierophant]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

]The evidence is that a) they're Alik'r. Granted your PC may not know what that means, but any reasonably aware person in Tamriel would, and Saadia is lying and lying very badly.

That he said something and you believed it is not evidence. Its simply a case of one persons word against the other. Because there is no actual evidence available.

That you know a city fell to the Thalmor in Hammerfell is also not evidence that it happened due to Saadia purposely turning traitor. It would completely be within standard Thalmor operating proceedure to frame the person who was their biggest opposition there. Or they could have tortured the information out of her. They did both those things in Skyrim after all.

My personal (non character) belief is that both sides were telling the truth as they knew it, if slightly embellished. But a fair trial was never going to happen.

I think my major problem with her story is that she makes it sound like the Thalmor are in control Hammerfell, when they were driven out instead. Another thing is why would she be singled out amongst the majority of the  population including the nobility who had united together against the Thalmor? If the Thalmor wanted her dead they would've left her name on a bounty at their embassy in Skyrim, or contact the Dark Brotherhood to get rid of her.

The only thing i'm not sure about is her motive for betraying Taneth. One can guess she typically was scared for her own life snuck out the city, and the Thalmor noticing it used that exit/entrance to send an agent to unlock Taneth's main gate.(Ninja style)
Another theory could be that the Thalmor snuck agents into the city to bribe the nobility, and Saadia was the first or only one to take the bait. A  servent of hers probably took note of the exchange or, a random citizen saw her sneaking suspiciously at night near the entrance, and survived the siege relaying what they saw to the officials.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 06 août 2012 - 11:54 .

[The Hierophant]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
 There is no possible way that someone's life would be in danger for speaking out against the Thalmor in Hammerfell, of all places. 

Even if it were true (which I repeat, is ludicrous), you don't send Alik'r warriors on a simple assassin mission.  They simply wouldn't do that.

These two things are the problems he's having: you're claiming to know things you simply can't know. You aren't from Hammerfell. You wouldn't know. How would you?

The Redguards and Thalmor are bitter enemies since the former kicked the later out of Hammerfell after a 5 year war. Since Hammerfell is not controlled/occupied by the Thalmor wouldn't it be wiser to stay in the country instead of going to Sykrim where the Thalmor have an embassy, and patrol it's western and central roads regularly. 

P.S. pickpocket Kematu, iirc he had  Hammerfell official uniform on him.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 07 août 2012 - 12:18 .

[Addai]

EntropicAngel wrote...

These two things are the problems he's having: you're claiming to know things you simply can't know. You aren't from Hammerfell. You wouldn't know. How would you?

From other lore, of course.  I'm not just making it up.  The Alik'r have been in previous games, they are known to be the fiercest and most honorable of warriors, not mercenary assassins.  They are also the ones who chased the Thalmor through the deserts, causing them to lose a third of their forces.  Even if Saadia's fish tale is true, why would Thalmor or a pro-Thalmor faction hire them to hunt her down?

From The Great War:

In Hammerfell, General Decianus was preparing to drive the Aldmeri back from Skaven when he was ordered to march for Cyrodiil. Unwilling to abandon Hammerfell completely, he allowed a great number of "invalids" to be discharged from the Legions before they marched east. These veterans formed the core of the army that eventually drove Lady Arannelya's forces back across the Alik'r late in 174, taking heavy
losses on their retreat from harassing attacks by the Alik'r warriors...

In the end, the heroic Redguards fought the Aldmeri Dominion to a standstill, although the war lasted for five more years and left southern Hammerfell devastated. The Redguards say that this proves that the White-Gold Concordat was unnecessary, and that if Titus II had kept his nerve, the Aldmeri could have been truly defeated by the combined forces of Hammerfell and the rest of the Empire.

Modifié par Addai67, 07 août 2012 - 12:18 .

[LobselVith8]

Elhanan wrote...

Q: Is the Psiijic Order actually in Skyrim? I started to follow the rep that visited the College with a past character, but was interrupted by a draconic attack on Winterhold.

I don't think so. I think they used their abilities to arrive on Skyrim from Artaeum. They seem to be able to manipulate time and space, given what happens to the Eye of Magnus. I would like to see them again.

[The Hierophant]

Addai67, doesn't Kematu have a Hammerfell official uniform on him?

Modifié par The Hierophant, 07 août 2012 - 12:20 .

[Addai]

The Hierophant wrote...

Addai67, doesn't Kematu have a Hammerfell official uniform on him?

No idea, what difference would it make if so?

[The Hierophant]

Addai67 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Addai67, doesn't Kematu have a Hammerfell official uniform on him?

No idea, what difference would it make if so?

Proof that he's not an imposter because it's in his inventory, and a clue of his allegiance to Hammerfell.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 07 août 2012 - 12:27 .

[LobselVith8]

The Hierophant wrote...

Addai67, doesn't Kematu have a Hammerfell official uniform on him?

He wears the same Alik'r attire that his comrades wear (and we see a variant of it in the Dark Brotherhood). It's simply called Hammerfell garb. He also carries two scimitars.

[The Hierophant]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Addai67, doesn't Kematu have a Hammerfell official uniform on him?

He wears the same Alik'r attire that his comrades wear (and we see a variant of it in the Dark Brotherhood). It's simply called Hammerfell garb. He also carries two scimitars.

Hmm...i thought it said official. Oh well there goes that piece of evidence. The only thing anyone can rely on in this quest is headcanon or the Imperial Library for their choice.