18 réponses à ce sujet

[RGC_Ines]

Im interesting how You feel about all those " cheaters" speech from devs and others forumites. One of Devs mentioned, that we can be punished becouse of romance choices in ME2 ( from here: http://social.biowar...3/index/5422342
I played ME1 as a Fem Shepard, and  I had Liara/Kaidan as LI. In ME2 I wanted to try alien romances and I took Thane as a new partner of my Shep, who was in relationship with Kaidan in previous game, and honestly I don't feel like a cheater. First, for Kaidan , Shepard was dead by two years, and naturally it was a some kind of theirs relationship's ending. He had a time to move on, and finally he make decision about starting his life anew. I never was upset becouse of that, I think, that he had a right to do so, and even to have true relationship with another woman. For other hand, my Shep have also right to move on, especially, that in ME2 she never promised Kaidan to stay loyal, never gave him a false impresion, that theirs relationship can be continue in a future. Also his mail, at last for me, never was a promise for continuation theirs relationship, he only gave us a hint, that if we will want this, probably we will have option to rebuild it. Of course, it could be more clearly, if Devs gave us a chance to broke up with ME1 LIs in ME2, or via dialog option on Horizon, or as an answer for theirs mails. We never get this chance, and I think, it's a little unfair to consider a new relationship as a cheating, while except Shepard " death" there's no others ways to finish Me1 romance. Im interesting what You think about this?

[Mr.House]

If you have a ME2 LI and you romanced Liara and you keep romancing Liara in LotSB and don't break it off with your ME2 LI, you are cheating.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Ooo, you're treading on dangerous territory here. Folks feel pretty passionate about this issue.

From a meta perspective, I think of it more as avoiding the ME2 romances opens up the possibility of rebuilding the ME1 romances. And romancing someone else in ME2 precluding the possibility for rekindling the ME1 romance.

EDIT:  I also think Liara's situation is vastly different from that of the Alliance LIs.  I did feel like Horizon could be legitimately interpreted as a relationship ending event.  However, Liara risked her life to save Shep from the Collectors doing god knows what.  The only reason why she's not back as a squaddie is to set up LoTSB and take down the guy who tried to hand Shep to Harbinger.  I do feel like her romance has an entirely different tenor, and messing around on her feels more like cheating than simply precluding the romance.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 17 décembre 2010 - 08:21 .

[Alienmorph]

Luclky LotSB made us to solve peacefully at least the situation if we romanced Liara in ME1. But I don't know what might happen with who cheated with the VS...

[Collider]

My perspective.

As for Liara, unless you break it off with her in the DLC, yes, it's cheating.

[Nozybidaj]

You can't cheat if you are not in a relationship. Since none of the ME1 relationships were continued in ME2, I can't see how it would possibly be considered cheating.

[FireEye]

I think "cheating" is a bad word for it, but that's the word BioWare uses, so that's the one in circulation.

The problem with the entire scenario and word use is that you're not given a chance to talk to your ME1 LI about it.

With Ashley and Kaidan, you died, effectively ending the relationship.  We (or at least, I) do not begrudge them for moving on while you were dead, but you aren't given a chance to talk to them about that or about anything.  They could have at least let you send an email back to them with the options of "I love you/Maybe/It's over" on the wheel.  But since you can't flat-out end it, it's in a gray area where you're moving on without telling them, which BW could consider "cheating," but it's still not a fair situation.

With Liara, it's a bit more problematic.  You know where she is at all times, and she knows you're alive.  Technically, your relationship shouldn't even be on hold with her.  But again, you're not given a chance to tell her you want to see other people (until LotSB, anyway?  I haven't played it...)

So yeah, it can be considered "cheating" in that you're seeing other people without breaking it off with your old LI, but the game never gives you the option to break it off.  I think it's a trap. 

(I mean, I have no interest in any of the ME2 LI's, and I still think it's a trap.)

[syllogi]

The game broke up any relationship Shepard had with Ashley or Kaidan, after Horizon. It's not cheating or being disloyal to move on and begin a new relationship.



BUT, as someone who stayed "faithful", I saw my character as being both hopeful for a renewal of the relationship in the future, and not angry or resentful about Horizon. So it made sense for me to use that terminology. If I had a character who had thought of the VS romance as just a fling, or definitively over after Horizon, I wouldn't call that Shepard a cheater.



If you're worried about consequences in ME3, I wouldn't worry. Most of the claims made about the ramifications of your ME1 decisions in ME2 were highly exaggerated.

[RGC_Ines]

I don't have LotSB, but also my Shep stayed loyal to Liara, so no problem there. I agree also with Sable, that story about Shep/Liara was different, than things about Shep/Kaidan/Ashley.
Liara gave Shepard to Cerberus to save her/his life, she made everything to help Shepard, and in ME2 she still is helping him/her.
And thanks Collider for a link
FireEye..It's good idea about mails. I think, it could work very well in ME2, but unfortunetly Devs never gave us this chance, even, if I good remember, there were promises, that we will be able to send a mails to ours ME1 LIs in ME 2 ( long time before ME2 relase)
TeenZombie..Im not affraid about " unloyality" consequences , but I just feel, it's unfair to call Shep a cheater and and talking that "'Cheating' on your ME1 LI might have negative repercussions in ME3 ", while there's no truly " cheating", well, except Liara...

Modifié par RGC_Ines, 17 décembre 2010 - 08:40 .

[mineralica]

I don't think in case of Ashley/Kaidan Shepard could be called a cheater. It's a grey territory, so if I were VS I would accept denial rather normal - too many time passed, Shepard has an odds, VS has already buried this relationship once.

The problem is that Shepard knows nothing about developers' decisions, keeping an excitement until ME3, equal right for all LIs and possible DLCs. But player does, and from metagaming perspective player may counts as a cheater. Again, from metagaming, hated by many people here. "Head explosion"

[Wrathra]

I don't consider it cheating, since the relationship technically ended the day Shepard died. However, I do think jumping right to a new LI after Kaidan/Ashely yell at you is pretty cold, depending on how you viewed the relationship in the first game. For example, my Shep had strong feelings for him and would have been hurt badly, even if she logically understood what had happened. Anything with an ME2 LI for her would have been rebounding, and not fair to anyone. Another Shepard may have viewed the ME1 relationship as a fling/one night stand/etc.



Liara on the other hand, I absolutely consider cheating, since she knew what was going on and appeared to stay faithful all the way through, knowing you were coming back. There was never any indication that relationship ended, I don't think



Just my 2 cents, for what its worth.

[Aeowyn]

Kaiden and Ashley: No. I don't consider that cheating. They've moved on and when they see you on Horizon they pretty much turn their back at you (bad writing but whatever). Imo, the relationship is dead there. The fact that there is some hope for it to start anew in the e-mail they sent afterwards might make some players wait for them, but imo if they decide to move on, it wouldn't be considered cheating.



Liara is a bit tricker. As Wrathra wrote, she knew that you were alive and what was going on with Cerberus and stayed faithful. She was the one who managed to get your body from the SB and well, I think if she wasn't on a revenge crusade against the Shadow Broker she would've joined you without blinking.

[SirOccam]

I think it's all in the eye of the beholder.

I think Ashley sounds pretty over it on Horizon, so I don't think it would necessarily be morally wrong to move on yourself. I haven't seen the Kaiden version, but I assume it's more or less the same.

Even Liara...she talks about how it's been such a long time and everything...I think she would understand if Shep moved on. She might not like it, but she can see the rationale. If you don't take that paragon interrupt right then, then I think she's able to cope.

Now Ash/Kaiden, I think there's enough of a rationale there too. If they show up in ME3 and find out you're with someone else, I doubt they'll be flabbergasted or anything, considering the frosty reception you get on Horizon. I suspect they'll both be romanceable, though, so it's not like the door is necessarily closed either.

I think they played it pretty well. The extended length of time plus the tensions about Cerberus and everything offers enough justification for ending it, but they left it open if it's something you want to pursue.

I personally love the idea of a Shep that stays "faithful" through ME2, and that's what my primary playthrough does, but if someone's Shep has moved on, then he/she has moved on. I don't think we can conclusively say one way or the other what's right or wrong.

[aeetos21]

all relative i think. some people consider ogling a hotty cheating - they aren't too realistic. as for me1 LI's... Shepard has been dead for two years and he had a relationship spanning about a month at most. maybe if those two timetables were reversed then yes it would be cheating but as it is... the amount of content you had to go through in me2 means you definitely spent a lot more time with your me2 li an than your me1 li. still i would've preferred it if bw gave us the option to sit down and talk with them - explain why it won't work or hell even an email! then again that wouldnt make for drama in me3 sooo.... no, not cheating.

[Estelindis]

It's very different depending on who you romanced in ME1, both from Shep's point of view and that of the LI character.

(TL;DR version: I think it's fairer to call a Shep who romanced Liara a cheat if they go after a ME2 LI than one who romanced Ash or Kai, but there's grounds for either reaction either way.)

In the case of Liara, she knows Shep is alive - in fact, she's one of the people most responsible for Shep's return. There's little reason for her to move on, but perhaps clear reasons for her to temporarily freeze her feelings for Shepard because she knows the Lazarus Project is going to take some time and she feels a duty to work hard to help Feron. She puts a pause on things - she doesn't intend to see anyone new, but she can't afford to spend all her time longing for Shepard either. She subsumes herself in the new role that her situation demands.

For Ash or Kai, you are dead. It is only right and healthy for them to move on. To obsess over a dead lover would actually be the disloyal thing, since a Shep who truly loved them wouldn't want them to wallow in grief. Of course, given the strength of their feelings, it's difficult for them to move on - but, as you see from the emails later, both of them made an effort to rise from the ashes.

In terms of Shepard's situation, she or he is naturally going to feel the same way about her or his love upon first waking from clinical death. As far as Shep is concerned, no time has passed. For that reason, I think moving on is going to take a bit of time, regardless of the person from whom Shep is moving on. Once Shepard realises that two years have passed, though, she or he may take a number of different approaches:
1) Shep may choose to regard death and severing all bonds: regardless of how the ME1 LI may feel, Shep is free.
2) Shep could decide it's too cruel to reintroduce her/himself into the LI's life after the mourning period is bound to have passed (even though, to my mind, it's arrogant to make that decision alone, determining for the LI what s/he would want regardless of what they might actually want).
3) Shep may want to be able to meet the ME1 LI, but only to settle things and make sure that the ground is smoothed between them before Shep moves on. Maybe they can remain friends, if circumstances and wills permit it?
4) Shep may want to resume the romance - though this doesn't mean trying to force the matter if the ME1 LI balks at getting back together with a ghost from the past after a traumtic mourning period. It just means that Shep loves the ME1 LI as much as ever, wants to try to help heal the wounds together, and would be overjoyed if, in time, they could be together again, stronger than ever.

Now, we get to the differences from Shep's point of view when it comes to Ash/Kai and Liara.

In the case of Ashley and Kaidan, the above responses apply, but modified by the encounter on Horizon. They are clearly shocked, conflicted, and in pain - both from the Collector attack and from meeting Shepard again after all this time. The fact that Shep works with Cerberus now is the clincher. In the midst of their emotional turmoil, all they know is that they *can't* stand with Cerberus, even if that's where Shep is. Their duty to the Alliance is what has kept them going, and they can't turn their back on that now. It's not Shepard they're rejecting - it's Cerberus. Now, in terms of how Shepard reacts to this, any Shep who had intended to have nothing to do with Ash or Kai again is going to take Horizon as a confirmation that they were right. On the other hand, a Shepard who had intended to reconcile with Ash/Kai (whether for friendship or for romance) will, in my opinion, either decide that that they made a mistake and should stay away from someone who wants nothing to do with them anymore, or will decide that it's ridiculous to make a long-term decision based on a few minutes of incredibly stressful conversation and will try to keep an open mind about the future.

On the other hand, once Shepard finds out that Liara was responsible for bringing her or him back, and reunites with her in such a fashion that it's always possible to visit her again, I cannot see any reason why Shepard would turn his or her back on Liara. Well... apart from the good old "Liara, you've changed" - but two years have passed, of course she's changed! Giving her more than a few minutes or a few days to readjust to Shepard being back seems like the only option that isn't brutally unfair.

In the case of both, my personal feeling is that Shepard will give her or his ME1 LI some time to come to terms with the current situation if Shepard ever really loved him or her. Sure: Shepard is ultimately an adult and free to carry on with whomever she or he wishes. But the simple fact that one can focus on oneself over and above the person who mourned one doesn't mean that one should.

Of course, this matter of cheating could have been avoided if Bioware gave Shepard the opportunity to clearly sever the relationship. Instead, Shepard must either persevere in spite of doubt (and maybe end up pinning hope on a dead relationship) or shrug and move on (and maybe show her/himself to be so fickle as to be unable to manage to stay alone romantically for as much as a month, when their ME1 LI had to do so for two years - in other words, cheating by moving on when whether or not things have ended is far from clear).

Modifié par Estelindis, 18 décembre 2010 - 01:40 .

[Ryzaki]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Ooo, you're treading on dangerous territory here. Folks feel pretty passionate about this issue.

From a meta perspective, I think of it more as avoiding the ME2 romances opens up the possibility of rebuilding the ME1 romances. And romancing someone else in ME2 precluding the possibility for rekindling the ME1 romance.

EDIT:  I also think Liara's situation is vastly different from that of the Alliance LIs.  I did feel like Horizon could be legitimately interpreted as a relationship ending event.  However, Liara risked her life to save Shep from the Collectors doing god knows what.  The only reason why she's not back as a squaddie is to set up LoTSB and take down the guy who tried to hand Shep to Harbinger.  I do feel like her romance has an entirely different tenor, and messing around on her feels more like cheating than simply precluding the romance.

She handed my Shep's body to a terrorist organization and was pretty damn cold (no I didn't do LotSB I shouldn't have to play a DLC to get character development that should've been in game.) So as far as he's concerned they're done.

So I really don't see any of them as cheating. Everyone had moved on with their lives.

And frankly Liara should have moved on. Her not doing so was creepy ather than heartwarming to me.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 décembre 2010 - 01:36 .

[LoveAsThouWilt]

I stuck with her on Shadow Broker with my one Playthrough. I admit I miss the old kinder Liara, but 2 years, people change. I don't see how Kaidan or Ashley one could be considered cheating if Shepard was, after all, DEAD. That and they have NO ROLE in Mass Effect 2. None. So if they aren't in Mass Effect 3 who the HELL is charge of Mass Effect anymore because we were told that their would be consequences and therefore the MUST be in ME3.

[TomY90]

FireEye wrote...

 since you can't flat-out end it, it's in a gray area where you're moving on without telling them, which BW could consider "cheating," but it's still not a fair situation.

technically with the alliance solider romance you can sort of say if you have broken up with them or not with Joker (when he is asking what it was like seeing him/her again) and in a way Kelly Chambers as well when you talk to her afterwards does give you the opportunity to say what you feel about it.

But you are right you cannot stay straight out its over to their face.

My opinion on this is that you were dead they should have moved on and they do feel that you are not the same person as you once were because they thought you would never work for cerberus.

So really it is not true cheating its more a shady part of romancing.

But do not care really prefer Miranda over the ME1 and the ME2 options to be honest and plus it will add more dialogue options if you have a conflict of interests between ME1 and ME2 romances.