224 réponses à ce sujet

[revengeance]

lazuli wrote...

I'm a fan of the defense system. No, it doesn't make any sense from a lore perspective for armor to block Biotics. But it makes for more interesting combat. The defense system isn't perfect, by any means, but it forces players to explore other options.

As you become more comfortable with higher difficulties, the defenses will seem like less and less of an issue. Even defended enemies can stagger, and talented players can take advantage of these momentary vulnerabilities. Know your enemies, know your class, and know your squadmates. Defenses are a challenge to overcome. Challenges can be fun.

It does not make more interesting combat for anyone who chose anything other than a soldier. Yeah it forces them to explore not using powers lol.

I beat the game with multiple classes and extensively played others, Adept on insane is not fun it is tedious!!!

[lazuli]

revengeance wrote...

The current system is so mindless.

Are you talking about the enemy AI in ME2, or the layers of armor and shields?

[lazuli]

revengeance wrote...

It does not make more interesting combat for anyone who chose anything other than a soldier. Yeah it forces them to explore not using powers lol.

I beat the game with multiple classes and extensively played others, Adept on insane is not fun it is tedious!!!

Every class has a way to deal with defenses, and every class has squadmates to cover their own weaknesses.  If you think ammo powers are the only way to deal with defenses, or even the best way in all situations, you might want to re-evaluate your view of ME2 combat.

As for the Adept, see this thread.  This discussion has been rehashed so many times that I'm not going to pretend I can change your mind.  I can only say that as I gained more experience with Insanity I was forced to change my views on what I thought was effective and ineffective. 

The defense system is obviously not for everyone, but I greatly enjoy planning my team for the mission at hand.  This might be an unpopular view, but I do hope defenses return, at least in some form, in ME3.  This is not to say, though, that I wouldn't welcome improved enemy AI.  I don't know the details of programming cunning enemy AI, but I can imagine it's difficult.  If it is impractical for Bioware to greatly improve the enemy AI in ME3, I do hope they include more enemies that pressure us, either in close combat or with the ability to push us out of cover (Shockwave and similar effects).

[revengeance]

lazuli wrote...

revengeance wrote...

The current system is so mindless.

Are you talking about the enemy AI in ME2, or the layers of armor and shields?

Both.

[revengeance]

lazuli wrote...

revengeance wrote...

It does not make more interesting combat for anyone who chose anything other than a soldier. Yeah it forces them to explore not using powers lol.

I beat the game with multiple classes and extensively played others, Adept on insane is not fun it is tedious!!!

Every class has a way to deal with defenses, and every class has squadmates to cover their own weaknesses.  If you think ammo powers are the only way to deal with defenses, or even the best way in all situations, you might want to re-evaluate your view of ME2 combat.

As for the Adept, see this thread.  This discussion has been rehashed so many times that I'm not going to pretend I can change your mind.  I can only say that as I gained more experience with Insanity I was forced to change my views on what I thought was effective and ineffective. 

The defense system is obviously not for everyone, but I greatly enjoy planning my team for the mission at hand.  This might be an unpopular view, but I do hope defenses return, at least in some form, in ME3.  This is not to say, though, that I wouldn't welcome improved enemy AI.  I don't know the details of programming cunning enemy AI, but I can imagine it's difficult.  If it is impractical for Bioware to greatly improve the enemy AI in ME3, I do hope they include more enemies that pressure us, either in close combat or with the ability to push us out of cover (Shockwave and similar effects).

I just feel that it could be far better, i think you would really enjoy my way if they did it right. I think bioware could handle it i mean fear's A.I is a great example if they can do it bioware can.

Modifié par revengeance, 18 décembre 2010 - 07:27 .

[blocks]

lazuli wrote...

revengeance wrote...

It does not make more interesting combat for anyone who chose anything other than a soldier. Yeah it forces them to explore not using powers lol.

I beat the game with multiple classes and extensively played others, Adept on insane is not fun it is tedious!!!

Every class has a way to deal with defenses, and every class has squadmates to cover their own weaknesses.  If you think ammo powers are the only way to deal with defenses, or even the best way in all situations, you might want to re-evaluate your view of ME2 combat.

As for the Adept, see this thread.  This discussion has been rehashed so many times that I'm not going to pretend I can change your mind.  I can only say that as I gained more experience with Insanity I was forced to change my views on what I thought was effective and ineffective. 

The defense system is obviously not for everyone, but I greatly enjoy planning my team for the mission at hand.  This might be an unpopular view, but I do hope defenses return, at least in some form, in ME3.  This is not to say, though, that I wouldn't welcome improved enemy AI.  I don't know the details of programming cunning enemy AI, but I can imagine it's difficult.  If it is impractical for Bioware to greatly improve the enemy AI in ME3, I do hope they include more enemies that pressure us, either in close combat or with the ability to push us out of cover (Shockwave and similar effects).

IMO the only time you should be picking squadmates tactically is when it's a "go blow something up" mission, you bring a demolition expert kind of thing. Or a sniper for certain missions CQC for others etc. like it  would be in real life. The teammate AI is terrible anyhow and enemies almost never try to shoot them when I'm remotely in the area even if they cant hit me so really their only use is powers which you control. Pretty stupid if you ask me, if it's going to be a squad based game, squad tactics should apply, which leads me back to the main point. Say I want to tell my machine gun/ AR weilding teammate to suppress a group of enemies, I can't, not because my teammate won't attack, but because bullets are simply insignificant. Like I said before, it doesn't make sense in the story either and therefore it's stupid from both the perspective of a shooter fan and an RPG fan.


AI that has even some resemblance to smart tactics will always be better than AI that can take a load of damage and kill you in a couple hits.

[Dark_Caduceus]

Imperium Alpha wrote...

BattleRaptor wrote...
THere was a reason soldiers were so much better then every other class.. they did the most DPS.. and DPS is what counted taking down the enemy.. everyone else took a damage and ability nerf till shields and armor were punched though.

Agree with you on that one. But also, I remember while playing the first Mass Effect, Biotics were way more powerful than soldier. Shepard anyway is a Soldier everybody know that

Soldier Shepard could go Shock Trooper Specialty class and the last level of Immunity with just a couple of power cooldown reducers which allowed the duration of Immunity to last longer than its cooldown. Know what that means? 80% damage reduction, for the entire game, along with tons of health and shields essentially made Shepard into a walking tank. I stopped using cover with that soldier, I jsut ran up to every enemy hitting then and shooting point blank, did a run through without ever dying. ME1 Soldier>every other class.

[adam_grif]

Yes, the A.I. is horrific, and the terribleness really comes into play when you crank it up to Insane. For tough fights I force my squadies to stay behind obstacles where they physically cannot get shot, and stay there for the fight. That way they can't die, and I can use their powers at will.



I was just doing the Colossus fight on Tali's recruitment mission, stuck them up next to Kal Reegar, lol.

[revengeance]

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

Imperium Alpha wrote...

BattleRaptor wrote...
THere was a reason soldiers were so much better then every other class.. they did the most DPS.. and DPS is what counted taking down the enemy.. everyone else took a damage and ability nerf till shields and armor were punched though.

Agree with you on that one. But also, I remember while playing the first Mass Effect, Biotics were way more powerful than soldier. Shepard anyway is a Soldier everybody know that

Soldier Shepard could go Shock Trooper Specialty class and the last level of Immunity with just a couple of power cooldown reducers which allowed the duration of Immunity to last longer than its cooldown. Know what that means? 80% damage reduction, for the entire game, along with tons of health and shields essentially made Shepard into a walking tank. I stopped using cover with that soldier, I jsut ran up to every enemy hitting then and shooting point blank, did a run through without ever dying. ME1 Soldier>every other class.

Yeah it's true, i played two soldiers in ME1 and they destroyed.

[revengeance]

adam_grif wrote...

Yes, the A.I. is horrific, and the terribleness really comes into play when you crank it up to Insane. For tough fights I force my squadies to stay behind obstacles where they physically cannot get shot, and stay there for the fight. That way they can't die, and I can use their powers at will.

I was just doing the Colossus fight on Tali's recruitment mission, stuck them up next to Kal Reegar, lol.

Lmao i know, if i had a nickel for every time i went  "No...don't run out there!?...DAMN IT!! ...Stop standing in front of me...out of omni gel..perfect! face palm.."

I literally had a pre designated spot to stick them in any firefight for the whole firefight.

[revengeance]

blocks wrote...

lazuli wrote...

revengeance wrote...

It does not make more interesting combat for anyone who chose anything other than a soldier. Yeah it forces them to explore not using powers lol.

I beat the game with multiple classes and extensively played others, Adept on insane is not fun it is tedious!!!

Every class has a way to deal with defenses, and every class has squadmates to cover their own weaknesses.  If you think ammo powers are the only way to deal with defenses, or even the best way in all situations, you might want to re-evaluate your view of ME2 combat.

As for the Adept, see this thread.  This discussion has been rehashed so many times that I'm not going to pretend I can change your mind.  I can only say that as I gained more experience with Insanity I was forced to change my views on what I thought was effective and ineffective. 

The defense system is obviously not for everyone, but I greatly enjoy planning my team for the mission at hand.  This might be an unpopular view, but I do hope defenses return, at least in some form, in ME3.  This is not to say, though, that I wouldn't welcome improved enemy AI.  I don't know the details of programming cunning enemy AI, but I can imagine it's difficult.  If it is impractical for Bioware to greatly improve the enemy AI in ME3, I do hope they include more enemies that pressure us, either in close combat or with the ability to push us out of cover (Shockwave and similar effects).

IMO the only time you should be picking squadmates tactically is when it's a "go blow something up" mission, you bring a demolition expert kind of thing. Or a sniper for certain missions CQC for others etc. like it  would be in real life. The teammate AI is terrible anyhow and enemies almost never try to shoot them when I'm remotely in the area even if they cant hit me so really their only use is powers which you control. Pretty stupid if you ask me, if it's going to be a squad based game, squad tactics should apply, which leads me back to the main point. Say I want to tell my machine gun/ AR weilding teammate to suppress a group of enemies, I can't, not because my teammate won't attack, but because bullets are simply insignificant. Like I said before, it doesn't make sense in the story either and therefore it's stupid from both the perspective of a shooter fan and an RPG fan.


AI that has even some resemblance to smart tactics will always be better than AI that can take a load of damage and kill you in a couple hits.

Thank you sir, well said.

AND SERIOUSLY! if i am nearby the enemy like...smell me! lol they won't even look at my squadmates. i haaated that.

[hong]

The system in ME2 is far more compelling than in ME1. In the first game, I replayed primarily to experience the awesomeness of the endgame, with the parts in the middle being a necessary hurdle. In the second, I'm replaying just to do some of the big fights again, and the reworking of the combat engine is the reason for that. The layers of defenses make for interesting tactical options where just slapping immunity/regen on everything didn't. Sure, you can't willy-nilly shut down everyone with singularity and lift, but that's a Good Thing.

[adam_grif]

I agree that ME2 combat is better than ME1 combat, but I think this is more to do with broken balance, bugs and a generally bad cover system. The ability to use Biotics to "lock down" dangerous enemies or stun several enemies to keep them away from you is a good thing. IMO one of the most frustrating things in ME2, especially on high difficulties (Insanity is the worst for this) is when you see 3 enemies rush at you, and you just know there's nothing you can do about it. You can't kill them with squad abilities because they are too strong, you can't stun them with abilities because they have a defense layer, and you can't retreat because you'll get iced as soon as you leave cover. You may as well reload your last save then and there.



This is what I talked about above, there's basically zero crowd control in the game.

[Zulu_DFA]

adam_grif wrote...

I agree that ME2 combat is better than ME1 combat, but I think this is more to do with broken balance, bugs and a generally bad cover system. The ability to use Biotics to "lock down" dangerous enemies or stun several enemies to keep them away from you is a good thing. IMO one of the most frustrating things in ME2, especially on high difficulties (Insanity is the worst for this) is when you see 3 enemies rush at you, and you just know there's nothing you can do about it. You can't kill them with squad abilities because they are too strong, you can't stun them with abilities because they have a defense layer, and you can't retreat because you'll get iced as soon as you leave cover. You may as well reload your last save then and there.

This is what I talked about above, there's basically zero crowd control in the game.

That's what an "escape" power (Cloak, A-Rush, etc.) is for.

But the OP is right. In shooters enemy infantry is not supposed to live longer than two seconds (at most) under accurate player's fire.

[adam_grif]

Cloak works, but only if you're an infiltrator, Adrenaline rush only sometimes works, and taking Barrier/Shield Boost / whatever as a bonus talent denies you other useful things and only *sometimes* works because you are so fragile on high difficulties anyway.

In shooters enemy infantry is not supposed to live longer than two seconds (at most) under accurate player's fire.

I *prefer* shooters that way, but there are plenty of counter-examples. Gears of War and Halo are not like that for many of their enemies, and they are enormously popular franchises.

[Homey C-Dawg]

I didn't like the layered defenses approach at all when the game came out. However I've been playing only insanity for a long time. Now I would find it boring without multiple layers of defenses.

I love seeing how fast I can cut through a geth prime or blue suns commando's shields/armor/health with any given class.

[Arijharn]

I think the defence layering is overwrought to be honest. I wouldn't mind some sort of diminishing returns system rather than just plain blocking of abilities if they aren't of the correct paper-scissors. I can understand their fear from Adept mastery in the first game, but it seems to me that they overly compensated.

[Zulu_DFA]

Arijharn wrote...

I think the defence layering is overwrought to be honest. I wouldn't mind some sort of diminishing returns system rather than just plain blocking of abilities if they aren't of the correct paper-scissors. I can understand their fear from Adept mastery in the first game, but it seems to me that they overly compensated.

They should have made the powers... well, powerful, but costly in omnigel (tech ammo) and medigel (biotic ammo), so that it would be only efficient to use them against bosses/crowds, while average firefights would have to be resolved with unlimited ammo rifles. Ammo system - check. Lore upheld - check.

[Arijharn]

For the sake of argument, I didn't mind the requirement of ammo. I wasn't one of those who thought the game and universe we ruined with it's introduction. I just thought layers was just tedious but didn't make the combat any more fun. I guess it made it tactical in the sense that "OMG I need everyone to strip the defenses of this Ymir before I can lock it down" but honestly, I thought it was badly executed. If I poured enough firepower into the Ymir for example (effectively ignoring the other one) then I may as well just finish it off or something. The thing that annoys me about defence layers in particular is because it's just so artificial. I have a larger problem with that then I do with miscellaneous warehouses in the game that have carefully positioned crates to provide cover.



But as to ammo powers specifically, I agree that they shouldn't have been class powers at least. I know, gameplay and all, but it doesn't make sense to me that an alliance marine (and an N7 graduate at that) is going to suddenly not know how to use Incendary Ammo just because he's an Adept.

[lazuli]

adam_grif wrote...

I agree that ME2 combat is better than ME1 combat, but I think this is more to do with broken balance, bugs and a generally bad cover system. The ability to use Biotics to "lock down" dangerous enemies or stun several enemies to keep them away from you is a good thing. IMO one of the most frustrating things in ME2, especially on high difficulties (Insanity is the worst for this) is when you see 3 enemies rush at you, and you just know there's nothing you can do about it. You can't kill them with squad abilities because they are too strong, you can't stun them with abilities because they have a defense layer, and you can't retreat because you'll get iced as soon as you leave cover. You may as well reload your last save then and there.

This is what I talked about above, there's basically zero crowd control in the game.

You need to make better use of the cover system.  Buy yourself time to move with momentary staggers, even against defended enemies.  Insanity difficulty rewards aggressive play.

And I am not sure how to respond to your last comment.  Every single squadmate has access to at least one crowd control skill.  Every single Shepard class does as well.  Although most crowd control effects don't work well on protected enemies, you can still get staggers.

Zulu_DFA wrote...


They should have made the powers... well, powerful, but costly in omnigel (tech ammo) and medigel (biotic
ammo), so that it would be only efficient to use them against bosses/crowds, while average firefights would have to be resolved with unlimited ammo rifles. Ammo system - check. Lore upheld - check.

Quality gameplay- ...

Yeah, not checked.  I find resource systems for powers compelling in certain games, but I don't know that they would fit well into Mass Effect.  You seem to have an outdated idea of what makes games fun, and I respect that.  I find plenty of old games enjoyable.  But if the shift from ME1 to ME2 is any indication, Bioware wants their games to feel more modern.


Edit: Multiple quote formatting.

Modifié par lazuli, 18 décembre 2010 - 02:39 .

[DJBare]

revengeance wrote...
I think the whole layer system sucks, to be blunt.

Now understand!!! i do not have any trouble on any difficulty with any character class, I just find it to be tedious and i think it could be much more fun, that is my arguement!


And on a final note the fact that i have to chip away at everything down to health to use any of my power's makes playing my adept a snooze fest.

Different strokes for different folks, I like using cover and chipping away at the enemy, I especially like getting into a position where I can use the sniper rifle and pick them off one at a time, I even try to hold my squad back so that I can make the kills.

[BattleRaptor]

Djbare
Thats the point.. its quicker and EASIER with guns then supporting classes.. which we are trying to point out... a SniperRifle besides the problems with ammo work FAR faster then support classes.. even thou support classes aint actually surpose to be support.. they are just surpose to be diffrent way to get things done.. that doing is going though the enemy.

GUNS are not the problem in me2.
So there is no reason you should feel there is a problem when your fav playstyle is shooting.

lazuli
True or false
A Soldier can clear out a level faster then any other class?

True or False
Having both team mates with sniperrifles rather then biotics/tech helps you clear out levels faster then any other team combo?.

The support classes are almost entirely limited to ONLY being effective once shields/armor are down.

Health is so low compared to shields/armor that 1-3 hits from heavy pistols in the head even on insanity kills.

as a % shields/armor make up about 80% of the total health of most things.

ITS QUICKER
to fire 3 rounds at a depelted enemies head then it is to cast a power in me2.

The System was designed to make support classes support classes... but in whats an ENTIRELY stupid move.
Because.. and Im sure your picked up on my contridctory statements.. Bioware wanted Bionics to feel like SUPERMEN... THERE WORDING in one of the interviews leading up to me2 release.

The support classes in general only work AFTER not BEFORE the damage classes have done there work.

Ive completed me2 on insanity with almost every class.. or maybe I have with every class... cant remember.
But I feel powerless when playing a adept...
Its do'able.. you can complete the game.. you can even do it rather easy.... but it does not feel very fun.

Modifié par BattleRaptor, 18 décembre 2010 - 02:51 .

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
They should have made the powers... well, powerful, but costly in omnigel (tech ammo) and medigel (biotic ammo), so that it would be only efficient to use them against bosses/crowds, while average firefights would have to be resolved with unlimited ammo rifles. Ammo system - check. Lore upheld - check.

[lazuli]

BattleRaptor wrote...

lazuli
True or false
A Soldier can clear out a level faster then any other class?

I can't say for sure, as that would take an awful lot of testing to gain accurate results.  If [Mattock] Soldier isn't fastest, it's in second place after Vanguard, which would win for the sake of spawn-stopping if nothing else.  Again, though, I haven't tested this and I'm not into speed runs.  I play on the xbox.

True or False
Having both team mates with sniperrifles rather then biotics/tech helps you clear out levels faster then any other team combo?.

That would depend on whether you as the player are manually controlling your squadmates' use of powers.

[revengeance]

hong wrote...

The system in ME2 is far more compelling than in ME1. In the first game, I replayed primarily to experience the awesomeness of the endgame, with the parts in the middle being a necessary hurdle. In the second, I'm replaying just to do some of the big fights again, and the reworking of the combat engine is the reason for that. The layers of defenses make for interesting tactical options where just slapping immunity/regen on everything didn't. Sure, you can't willy-nilly shut down everyone with singularity and lift, but that's a Good Thing.

Agreed, but i feel it could be much better by doing these few improvements -
1.) A.I instead of a layer system.
2.) power's should not be nullified by anything other than, well other powers. Let's face it that's not fun for anyone.
3.) Better team A.I

....Basically better A.I, the enemy should try outsmart me using their teamwork and number's.