224 réponses à ce sujet

[revengeance]

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
They should have made the powers... well, powerful, but costly in omnigel (tech ammo) and medigel (biotic ammo), so that it would be only efficient to use them against bosses/crowds, while average firefights would have to be resolved with unlimited ammo rifles. Ammo system - check. Lore upheld - check.

Revengeance also dissaproves, oh god ammo for my powers as well i would just put the game down.

[revengeance]

Arijharn wrote...

For the sake of argument, I didn't mind the requirement of ammo. I wasn't one of those who thought the game and universe we ruined with it's introduction. I just thought layers was just tedious but didn't make the combat any more fun. I guess it made it tactical in the sense that "OMG I need everyone to strip the defenses of this Ymir before I can lock it down" but honestly, I thought it was badly executed. If I poured enough firepower into the Ymir for example (effectively ignoring the other one) then I may as well just finish it off or something. The thing that annoys me about defence layers in particular is because it's just so artificial. I have a larger problem with that then I do with miscellaneous warehouses in the game that have carefully positioned crates to provide cover.

But as to ammo powers specifically, I agree that they shouldn't have been class powers at least. I know, gameplay and all, but it doesn't make sense to me that an alliance marine (and an N7 graduate at that) is going to suddenly not know how to use Incendary Ammo just because he's an Adept.

This post is full of win.

[revengeance]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

I think the defence layering is overwrought to be honest. I wouldn't mind some sort of diminishing returns system rather than just plain blocking of abilities if they aren't of the correct paper-scissors. I can understand their fear from Adept mastery in the first game, but it seems to me that they overly compensated.

They should have made the powers... well, powerful, but costly in omnigel (tech ammo) and medigel (biotic ammo), so that it would be only efficient to use them against bosses/crowds, while average firefights would have to be resolved with unlimited ammo rifles. Ammo system - check. Lore upheld - check.

Nooooo please no more ammo.

Listen AMMO only affects you the NPC's never have to reload! it is such a lame mechanic to try and spice thing's up. They should have kept the overheating system it was win!

[revengeance]

adam_grif wrote...

I agree that ME2 combat is better than ME1 combat, but I think this is more to do with broken balance, bugs and a generally bad cover system. The ability to use Biotics to "lock down" dangerous enemies or stun several enemies to keep them away from you is a good thing. IMO one of the most frustrating things in ME2, especially on high difficulties (Insanity is the worst for this) is when you see 3 enemies rush at you, and you just know there's nothing you can do about it. You can't kill them with squad abilities because they are too strong, you can't stun them with abilities because they have a defense layer, and you can't retreat because you'll get iced as soon as you leave cover. You may as well reload your last save then and there.

This is what I talked about above, there's basically zero crowd control in the game.

Exactly, and this leads me to another of my points. The enemy should never really be stronger than me they have advantages such as number's and on certain difficulties excellent teamwork and squad cohesion! But i am commander sheppard I can beat any of them one on one i just need to outsmart them.


Again 4 shots for me 60 for them not a good system it is lazy. If they have better gear ok 4 shot's for me 6-7 for them that is fine but this system is just trying to compensate for awful A.I!

[sinosleep]

I like the layers because for the most part powerful weapons and abilities remain so regardless of difficulty. The widow and claymore one shot your average mooks regardless of difficulty. AOE versions over overload and incinerate still one shot defenses. Warp bombs still kill mooks outright and strip the defenses of anyone in their wake. The list goes on and on and on. The layers, unlike insanity spamming baddies in ME 1, don't circumvent your powers and weapon damage turning the game to tedium. They ALL have very specific weakness that allow you to speed through the game.

[edit here] And as for not being able to do anything against groups of enemies? Are you kidding me? 

Group of three coming towards you.

If they have shields = overload + whatever crowd control you feel like using and you get nearly instant CC 
if they have shields = incinerate + whatever crowd control you feel like using and you get nearly instant CC
if they have barriers = warp + whatever crowd control you feel like using and you get nearly instant CC 

just youtube it, it's quite easy to take down groups of enemies in no time flat regardless of difficulty.

Modifié par sinosleep, 18 décembre 2010 - 07:42 .

[revengeance]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

adam_grif wrote...

I agree that ME2 combat is better than ME1 combat, but I think this is more to do with broken balance, bugs and a generally bad cover system. The ability to use Biotics to "lock down" dangerous enemies or stun several enemies to keep them away from you is a good thing. IMO one of the most frustrating things in ME2, especially on high difficulties (Insanity is the worst for this) is when you see 3 enemies rush at you, and you just know there's nothing you can do about it. You can't kill them with squad abilities because they are too strong, you can't stun them with abilities because they have a defense layer, and you can't retreat because you'll get iced as soon as you leave cover. You may as well reload your last save then and there.

This is what I talked about above, there's basically zero crowd control in the game.

That's what an "escape" power (Cloak, A-Rush, etc.) is for.

But the OP is right. In shooters enemy infantry is not supposed to live longer than two seconds (at most) under accurate player's fire.

Thank you.

[Skilled Seeker]

revengeance wrote...

Shotokanguy wrote...

I think the armor bar in ME2 sucked. It prevented a lot of powers from working and didn't make any real sense in the universe.

Exactly!! how does him having more body armor or whatever negate all my abilities and when does that get fun? gotta chip all the way down to health to use my awesome biotic powers...ughh

You can still use powers on shielded and armoured foes. They just aren't as effective.

[revengeance]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

revengeance wrote...

Shotokanguy wrote...

I think the armor bar in ME2 sucked. It prevented a lot of powers from working and didn't make any real sense in the universe.

Exactly!! how does him having more body armor or whatever negate all my abilities and when does that get fun? gotta chip all the way down to health to use my awesome biotic powers...ughh

You can still use powers on shielded and armoured foes. They just aren't as effective.

They do damage (minimal mostly) and may stop your foe for a second but that is all. You must agree that for anyone other than a soldier this is kind of lame. I should be able to send a shockwave at my enemies and they all go flying but maybe if they are smart, they spread out nuetralizing it's effect to an extent ( A.I )

[revengeance]

sinosleep wrote...

I like the layers because for the most part powerful weapons and abilities remain so regardless of difficulty. The widow and claymore one shot your average mooks regardless of difficulty. AOE versions over overload and incinerate still one shot defenses. Warp bombs still kill mooks outright and strip the defenses of anyone in their wake. The list goes on and on and on. The layers, unlike insanity spamming baddies in ME 1, don't circumvent your powers and weapon damage turning the game to tedium. They ALL have very specific weakness that allow you to speed through the game.

[edit here] And as for not being able to do anything against groups of enemies? Are you kidding me? 

Group of three coming towards you.

If they have shields = overload + whatever crowd control you feel like using and you get nearly instant CC 
if they have shields = incinerate + whatever crowd control you feel like using and you get nearly instant CC
if they have barriers = warp + whatever crowd control you feel like using and you get nearly instant CC 

just youtube it, it's quite easy to take down groups of enemies in no time flat regardless of difficulty.

I am not saying it can not be done, I am arguing that the system is lazy and could be a lot more fun.

[Rebel42]

I enjoy the combat system in me2 , which isn't to say that I don't think that it could be improved.

Obviously better a.i for all npc would be nice, as well as combat being less linear and each fight turning out roughly the same, hide, shoot, advance forwards.

[Skilled Seeker]

revengeance wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

I think the defence layering is overwrought to be honest. I wouldn't mind some sort of diminishing returns system rather than just plain blocking of abilities if they aren't of the correct paper-scissors. I can understand their fear from Adept mastery in the first game, but it seems to me that they overly compensated.

They should have made the powers... well, powerful, but costly in omnigel (tech ammo) and medigel (biotic ammo), so that it would be only efficient to use them against bosses/crowds, while average firefights would have to be resolved with unlimited ammo rifles. Ammo system - check. Lore upheld - check.

Nooooo please no more ammo.

Listen AMMO only affects you the NPC's never have to reload! it is such a lame mechanic to try and spice thing's up. They should have kept the overheating system it was win!

Not true, NPCs have to reload as well. And the overheating system was not win, it was broken and unbalanced.

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 18 décembre 2010 - 08:00 .

[sinosleep]

revengeance wrote...

I am not saying it can not be done, I am arguing that the system is lazy and could be a lot more fun.

Hey, all I did was counter the point that I quoted. Frankly compared to what most other games do when you up the difficulty (simply buff enemy health up in a manner which can't be countered while at the same time gimping the hell out of the player) I think what ME 2 did was SPECTACULAR. They found a way to buff enemy health without completely screwing the player into simply shooting more by building in direct counters to those buffs. If you don't want so spend an inordinate amount of time on X defense then you simply cast the counter, use the counter weapon, counter ammo, or have your squad do it and you're right back to blazing through the game.

In a perfect world what I would prefer is simply better enemy AI as the difficulty is bumped up with no gimping of the player or buffing of the enemies but if that was really an option wouldn't more games be employing it by now? I mean it's 2010 and most games on the market STILL resort to flat buff to enemies and flat nerf of the player as their end all be all difficulty changes. It's gotten to the point where I just think AI scripting is a hell of a whole lot harder than any of us think it is.

[Zulu_DFA]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

revengeance wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

I think the defence layering is overwrought to be honest. I wouldn't mind some sort of diminishing returns system rather than just plain blocking of abilities if they aren't of the correct paper-scissors. I can understand their fear from Adept mastery in the first game, but it seems to me that they overly compensated.

They should have made the powers... well, powerful, but costly in omnigel (tech ammo) and medigel (biotic ammo), so that it would be only efficient to use them against bosses/crowds, while average firefights would have to be resolved with unlimited ammo rifles. Ammo system - check. Lore upheld - check.

Nooooo please no more ammo.

Listen AMMO only affects you the NPC's never have to reload! it is such a lame mechanic to try and spice thing's up. They should have kept the overheating system it was win!

Not true, NPCs have to reload as well. And the overheating system was not win, it was broken and unbalanced.

The only thing unbalanced about it was the X-level Spectre Gear and the possiblitity to equip two mods of the same type on the same piece.

Kovalyov X with a single Frictionless Materials X would overheat quite fast if fired continuosly. I don't remember if the AR skill  affected the rate of overheating... Maybe indirectly, by lowering the recoil to make it non-issue even for continuous firing thus allowing to install the double Frictionless materials. Anyway the system could be easily balanced.


@ revengeance.

I meant the basically ME1 overheating and modding system for the guns, but "ammo" (instead of cooldowns) for the powers, to prevent the permanent spamfest of Incineration, Warp, etc. Heavy weapons could be available exclusively to the Soldier class (and Soldier type squadmates) to compensate for he lack of biotic/tech powers.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 18 décembre 2010 - 08:46 .

[revengeance]

I edited my OP to try get my point accross better. I feel that is does this quite welll now please check it out.

TY

[revengeance]

sinosleep wrote...

revengeance wrote...

I am not saying it can not be done, I am arguing that the system is lazy and could be a lot more fun.

Hey, all I did was counter the point that I quoted. Frankly compared to what most other games do when you up the difficulty (simply buff enemy health up in a manner which can't be countered while at the same time gimping the hell out of the player) I think what ME 2 did was SPECTACULAR. They found a way to buff enemy health without completely screwing the player into simply shooting more by building in direct counters to those buffs. If you don't want so spend an inordinate amount of time on X defense then you simply cast the counter, use the counter weapon, counter ammo, or have your squad do it and you're right back to blazing through the game.

In a perfect world what I would prefer is simply better enemy AI as the difficulty is bumped up with no gimping of the player or buffing of the enemies but if that was really an option wouldn't more games be employing it by now? I mean it's 2010 and most games on the market STILL resort to flat buff to enemies and flat nerf of the player as their end all be all difficulty changes. It's gotten to the point where I just think AI scripting is a hell of a whole lot harder than any of us think it is.

Spectacular...not the word i would choose.

[revengeance]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...

revengeance wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

I think the defence layering is overwrought to be honest. I wouldn't mind some sort of diminishing returns system rather than just plain blocking of abilities if they aren't of the correct paper-scissors. I can understand their fear from Adept mastery in the first game, but it seems to me that they overly compensated.

They should have made the powers... well, powerful, but costly in omnigel (tech ammo) and medigel (biotic ammo), so that it would be only efficient to use them against bosses/crowds, while average firefights would have to be resolved with unlimited ammo rifles. Ammo system - check. Lore upheld - check.

Nooooo please no more ammo.

Listen AMMO only affects you the NPC's never have to reload! it is such a lame mechanic to try and spice thing's up. They should have kept the overheating system it was win!

Not true, NPCs have to reload as well. And the overheating system was not win, it was broken and unbalanced.

The only thing unbalanced about it was the X-level Spectre Gear and the possiblitity to equip two mods of the same type on the same piece.

Kovalyov X with a single Frictionless Materials X would overheat quite fast if fired continuosly. I dont remember if the SR skill  affected the rate of overheating... So the system could be easily balanced.


@ revengeance.

I meant the basically ME1 overheating and modding system for the guns, but "ammo" (instead of cooldowns) for the powers, to prevent the permanent spamfest of Incineration, Warp, etc. Heavy weapons could be available exclusively to the Soldier class (and Soldier type squadmates) to compensate for he lack of biotic/teck powers.

Yes, and to be fair ok if they do reload in most games it affects you a lot more than them and th same can be said for this game. The overheating system was fine with tweaking it could have been a new norm for futuristic shooters.

[revengeance]

revengeance wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...

revengeance wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

I think the defence layering is overwrought to be honest. I wouldn't mind some sort of diminishing returns system rather than just plain blocking of abilities if they aren't of the correct paper-scissors. I can understand their fear from Adept mastery in the first game, but it seems to me that they overly compensated.

They should have made the powers... well, powerful, but costly in omnigel (tech ammo) and medigel (biotic ammo), so that it would be only efficient to use them against bosses/crowds, while average firefights would have to be resolved with unlimited ammo rifles. Ammo system - check. Lore upheld - check.

Nooooo please no more ammo.

Listen AMMO only affects you the NPC's never have to reload! it is such a lame mechanic to try and spice thing's up. They should have kept the overheating system it was win!

Not true, NPCs have to reload as well. And the overheating system was not win, it was broken and unbalanced.

The only thing unbalanced about it was the X-level Spectre Gear and the possiblitity to equip two mods of the same type on the same piece.

Kovalyov X with a single Frictionless Materials X would overheat quite fast if fired continuosly. I dont remember if the SR skill  affected the rate of overheating... So the system could be easily balanced.


@ revengeance.

I meant the basically ME1 overheating and modding system for the guns, but "ammo" (instead of cooldowns) for the powers, to prevent the permanent spamfest of Incineration, Warp, etc. Heavy weapons could be available exclusively to the Soldier class (and Soldier type squadmates) to compensate for he lack of biotic/teck powers.

Yes, and to be fair ok if they do reload in most games it affects you a lot more then them and the same can be said for this game. The overheating system was fine with tweaking it could have been a new norm for futuristic shooters.

[sinosleep]

revengeance wrote...

Spectacular...not the word i would choose.

Most likely the reason why I was the one that chose it. Rock, paper, scissors is spectacular compared to shoot it for a year and a half due to a flat inrease in health.

[lazuli]

sinosleep wrote...

revengeance wrote...

Spectacular...not the word i would choose.

Most likely the reason why I was the one that chose it. Rock, paper, scissors is spectacular compared to shoot it for a year and a half due to a flat inrease in health.

Agreed.  I don't think anyone is against improved AI, but it just doesn't seem to be a realistic option.  The defense system isn't perfect, but I'm fond of it.

[revengeance]

sinosleep wrote...

revengeance wrote...

Spectacular...not the word i would choose.

Most likely the reason why I was the one that chose it. Rock, paper, scissors is spectacular compared to shoot it for a year and a half due to a flat inrease in health.

It's pretty much the same thing.

[revengeance]

lazuli wrote...

sinosleep wrote...

revengeance wrote...

Spectacular...not the word i would choose.

Most likely the reason why I was the one that chose it. Rock, paper, scissors is spectacular compared to shoot it for a year and a half due to a flat inrease in health.

Agreed.  I don't think anyone is against improved AI, but it just doesn't seem to be a realistic option.  The defense system isn't perfect, but I'm fond of it.

Agreed, i know it might be hard to do but people have done it and it would make the action aspect of the game so much better.

[lazuli]

revengeance wrote...

It's pretty much the same thing.

No, the current defense system is not "pretty much the same thing" as ye olde Immunity spam.  Both setups do increase enemy resilience.  The current system empowers the players with abilities that cut through the defenses, if they choose to use them.  In the old system, the players had no recourse other than to keep laying on the damage, either that or wait out the Immunity.  I am not saying that the defense system is perfect.  I do think we've come a long way, though.


Not to shadow mod, but you might want to consider spamming your own thread a little less.

[Legbiter]

I like the current system. It forces you to pick your squadmates tactically depending on what you think you'll encounter.

[Rebel42]

I don't want to be a complete badass running into combat gung-ho, I like using tactics and the right squad for each mission, improving ai so that it is more of a challenge and less hide and attack, more moving into the correct position would be more of a challenge for me

[giuliano]

I dont think they should take the layers off , just make powers work on protected enemies and i agree on infantry not having a lot of protection , only bosses should have a lot.