224 réponses à ce sujet

[sinosleep]

sinosleep wrote...

Mass Effect 1 Compare how long it takes to kill something in THAT video, to ANYTHING in ME 2.

I'm just going to quote myself since everyone going on about the BRILLIANCE of ME 1's combat system either didn't watch this or is in denial. What, exactly, is so tactical about THAT? Walk in room, cycle powers and CC everything in the room in no time flat, spend 10 years shooting at disabled enemies.

[revengeance]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Bennyjammin79 wrote...

revengeance wrote...
And i agree with a lot of you, i feel mass effect one was a lot funner of a combat system.

What combat system?

That broken, boring, unbalanced mess you use to neutralise foes.

revengeance stop spamming posts that contribute nothing more than you saying you agree with others. If you have no point to make then no one gives a crap what you think.

Wow well that broken boring unbalanced mess a lot of people actually liked. If i want to show my support of someone on my forum and stay involved in the conversations i will lol especially if they are adding to or supporting points i have voiced and feel strongly about. who are you to tell me what i can and can't do lol?

Modifié par revengeance, 19 décembre 2010 - 09:23 .

[sinosleep]

Bennyjammin79 wrote...

I fail to see how ME1 was more tactical. Between the weapon/armor mods ensuring the player never had to worry about overheating or not being able to cast and the wonky AI; tactics in ME1 are nothing more than fanfic to me. The most one can do "tactically" is place your squad in different positions. 

And that player isn't even using his squad. Imagine how much more CC he'd have access to if he brought along Kaiden and Liara. ME 1 had one tactic that worked for all situations, spam biotic CC, WIN.

[Homey C-Dawg]

Sinosleep may be having an attitude (No worries here Sino, I understand frustration), but as I myself am a long time insanity-only player, I can attest that most everything he's saying is correct.

However, whether or not the game mechanics are actually fun is a matter of pure opinion per person. I love the current system (after I learned the detailed ins-and-outs of the system), but it seems like many don't.

TBH I didn't think the ME1 system was that bad either. I've never seen someone comment of how broken the ME1 system would/wouldn't be if they simple removed the Heat Sync/Frictionless Materials upgrades. Would it still be so broken if you couldn't reduce overheat?

Anyway, what about a compromise? For example, Physics biotics like Throw and Singularity could work on shielded enemies but not on armored ones. This might make more sense as shields shouldn't add weight but armor obviously would.

Or perhaps physics biotics should be reduced in effectiveness by like 60 or 70% until defenses are stripped.
Just some thoughts.

Modifié par Homey C-Dawg, 19 décembre 2010 - 09:45 .

[Vena_86]

I actually really like the idea of the system, but it is hindered by it's implementation and screwed balance for higher difficulties.
The good about the system is that this actually gives you a reason to think about which squad member to choose for a mission. This is pretty much the only time in the game where you actually have to think about your "specialists" performance, since there is no more equipment customization. For example vs Geth it is overload + AI hack and disruptor ammo. Vs collectors warp and concussive shot. Vs Blood pack incinerate, inferno ammo, warp...
These considerations are important to make me feel like a commander, making strategical and tactical decisions.
It is also good that like this, team combos are encouraged and generally team play is important.

What is bad, is that different difficulties have different setups for these layers, which completely rapes the balance and makes weapons and certain powers overly usefull while other powers and with them the squad members become considerably less usefull (Jack for example).
Difficulity should change overall resistance/health but not what weapons and powers are usefull against enemies.
What is also bad, is that the base health is way too low, compared to the top layers. This makes most biotics and cool combos like pull + warp almost useless. A simple fix is making base health generally stronger, while reducing the strength of the defense layers accordingly.

Modifié par Vena_86, 20 décembre 2010 - 09:20 .

[Homey C-Dawg]

Thats true. The usefulness of certain squadmates is very dependent on the difficulty level. On insanity I only find Jack useful if I have warp but not pull (like sentinel) so I can use her pull to set up warp bombs, whereas she's quite useful on lower difficulties regardless of your class or the other squadmate.

Base health is variable with enemies. Krogan have much more health than armor, as do commandos. I find warp bombs most useful for killing the dude I'm exploding while simultaneously stripping nearby enemies defenses. Killing many birds with one bomb if you will. Leave everyone in the vicinity vulnerable to shockwave/singularity/etc.

Modifié par Homey C-Dawg, 19 décembre 2010 - 09:59 .

[Skilled Seeker]

revengeance wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Bennyjammin79 wrote...

revengeance wrote...
And i agree with a lot of you, i feel mass effect one was a lot funner of a combat system.

What combat system?

That broken, boring, unbalanced mess you use to neutralise foes.

revengeance stop spamming posts that contribute nothing more than you saying you agree with others. If you have no point to make then no one gives a crap what you think.

Wow well that broken boring unbalanced mess a lot of people actually liked. If i want to show my support of someone on my forum and stay involved in the conversations i will lol especially if they are adding to or supporting points i have voiced and feel strongly about. who are you to tell me what i can and can't do lol?

And a LOT more people disliked. You are a tiny minority.

Voice your support but we don't need 3 back to back posts from you saying 'I agree' One is enough. Or you can contribute by adding your own points. Otherwise you are just spamming.

[Ahglock]

sinosleep wrote...

Bennyjammin79 wrote...

I fail to see how ME1 was more tactical. Between the weapon/armor mods ensuring the player never had to worry about overheating or not being able to cast and the wonky AI; tactics in ME1 are nothing more than fanfic to me. The most one can do "tactically" is place your squad in different positions. 

And that player isn't even using his squad. Imagine how much more CC he'd have access to if he brought along Kaiden and Liara. ME 1 had one tactic that worked for all situations, spam biotic CC, WIN.

Yeah but he was showing more the issues of really high level play than the core system problems.  Onve you have enough powers and small enough cooldowns and the best gear you were invincible.  At earlier parts of the game you did need to use tactics.  Though I would not want to return to the immunity spam days.

[sinosleep]

At earlier levels it wasn't quite as crazy, but it's tempered by the fact that most people did bring a squad along. Without having done a single story mission at the time of this video I was already lvl 19. At that point its quite easy to have several CC skills up past the half way mark on your own character, and then another set of CC skills leveled up and ready to go on your squad should you take say Kaiden and Wrex, both which have access to several biotics and are available almost from jump.

At that point I also already had access to spectre gear that even with so/so cooling mods already allowed me to fire practically forever. I made that video in response to all of the "well the mods aren't broken till end game any way" responses that are common. The fact of the matter is that you could get pretty broken weaponry pretty damned early in the game.

Modifié par sinosleep, 19 décembre 2010 - 10:48 .

[Homey C-Dawg]

Sooo.... I see a lot of ME1 is better/ME2 is better. Compromise anyone? Made a couple suggestions a few post back. Thoughts?

Or has this thread gotten too personal?

[sinosleep]

Homey C-Dawg, check your PM box.

[Homey C-Dawg]

Thanks. Didn't notice.

[Malanek]

sinosleep wrote...

At earlier levels it wasn't quite as crazy, but it's tempered by the fact that most people did bring a squad along. Without having done a single story mission at the time of this video I was already lvl 19.

That video is hilarious.

[revengeance]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

revengeance wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Bennyjammin79 wrote...

revengeance wrote...
And i agree with a lot of you, i feel mass effect one was a lot funner of a combat system.

What combat system?

That broken, boring, unbalanced mess you use to neutralise foes.

revengeance stop spamming posts that contribute nothing more than you saying you agree with others. If you have no point to make then no one gives a crap what you think.

Wow well that broken boring unbalanced mess a lot of people actually liked. If i want to show my support of someone on my forum and stay involved in the conversations i will lol especially if they are adding to or supporting points i have voiced and feel strongly about. who are you to tell me what i can and can't do lol?

And a LOT more people disliked. You are a tiny minority.

Voice your support but we don't need 3 back to back posts from you saying 'I agree' One is enough. Or you can contribute by adding your own points. Otherwise you are just spamming.

Alright well i doubt that but whatever, that is not even the point of this post it is to hopefully improve upon the current system. And most of my post's are me contributing a lot of ideas and insight. But point taken I do understand how people would think that i am just trying to spam to make my post look better or whatever, but that is truly not my goal at all.

[Kronner]

I guess some people don't like ME2 combat system because it is more skill based whereas ME1 is stat and gear based combat. In ME2 enemies can fight back and Shepard goes down easily, in ME1 you spam 4 abilities in 2s, all enemies float around and you shoot them.



Fortunately, BW folks are smart and they will keep, and even improve ME2 combat system.

[Ahglock]

sinosleep wrote...

At earlier levels it wasn't quite as crazy, but it's tempered by the fact that most people did bring a squad along. Without having done a single story mission at the time of this video I was already lvl 19. At that point its quite easy to have several CC skills up past the half way mark on your own character, and then another set of CC skills leveled up and ready to go on your squad should you take say Kaiden and Wrex, both which have access to several biotics and are available almost from jump.

At that point I also already had access to spectre gear that even with so/so cooling mods already allowed me to fire practically forever. I made that video in response to all of the "well the mods aren't broken till end game any way" responses that are common. The fact of the matter is that you could get pretty broken weaponry pretty damned early in the game.

There were plenty of fights I could not CC my way through at level 20ish and I rarely had enough money to specter gear it up too much at that level.  I am sure some people could but plenty of people are good enough at ME2 that they effectively break the game as well.  Both games have there tactical elements, both games can be screwed with to minimize tactical needs.  In no way do I want to go back to ME1 gameplay or difficulty scaling I prefer ME2 entirely.  Stil I used plenty of tactics in ME1 and until I was mid levelish for a 1st run I never felt close to invincible. Except oddly on the main missions which alway seemed to have weaker foes than side missions.  Dealing with the thorian easy,  killing nasana's sister pain in the ass. 

[Ahglock]

Kronner wrote...

I guess some people don't like ME2 combat system because it is more skill based whereas ME1 is stat and gear based combat. In ME2 enemies can fight back and Shepard goes down easily, in ME1 you spam 4 abilities in 2s, all enemies float around and you shoot them.

Fortunately, BW folks are smart and they will keep, and even improve ME2 combat system.

That is IMO the hallmark difference between a RPG and a shooter, character vs player skill.  Overall this made ME2 much easier for me because I rarely built up my shooting skill on my characters in ME1 to the dregree that my natural skill in ME2 gives me.  But hey that is what makes an action oriented RPG a action rpg the attacks are delievered via player skill the power of the hit may be character based, but the timeing and skill of the attack is player based.  And honestly in a shooter it just is more fun, heck even in fantasy it might make it more fun.  Fable is based on player skill for its melee combat, yeah the character determines things like how hard you hit, but the player is blocking and swinging etc.  I find it harder to accept in a shooter though me aiming perfectly and my character missing or being totally inefective. 

[sinosleep]

Homey C-Dawg wrote...

TBH I didn't think the ME1 system was that bad either. I've never seen someone comment of how broken the ME1 system would/wouldn't be if they simple removed the Heat Sync/Frictionless Materials upgrades. Would it still be so broken if you couldn't reduce overheat?

Anyway, what about a compromise? For example, Physics biotics like Throw and Singularity could work on shielded enemies but not on armored ones. This might make more sense as shields shouldn't add weight but armor obviously would.

Or perhaps physics biotics should be reduced in effectiveness by like 60 or 70% until defenses are stripped.
Just some thoughts.

My biggest beef with ME 1's combat wasn't the unlimited ammo (although that was part of it) it had more to do with how over powered CC was in the game.

As far as how far to reduce biotic effectiveness it introduces the problem of bypassing the very system they put in. What's the point of a rock/paper/scissors system if biotic characters are allowed to just use a sledge hammer to crush all three?

I can't say that I've got a solution in mind (since I'm perfectly content with the current system) but that's what I think of the suggestions posted.

[TheJiveDJ]

No, no, no. Here is how it should work.

- Biotics should always work on an enemy unless they have a biotic barrier. Does gravity stop working just because you're wearing body armor? No, and neither should biotic powers.

- Sheilds should protect you from the full brunt of gunfire.

- Armors shouldn't protect you from a head shot.

Modifié par TheJiveDJ, 20 décembre 2010 - 01:38 .

[lazuli]

sinosleep wrote...

desonnac00 wrote...

This. Most of the powers not working on the tougher enemies- kinda suck-y. I mean- If you peeled the invincible badass du jour's shields and armor- why use a power when you are 1/3 away from killing him- just shoot and be done with it. 

I see that argument tossed around on these forums CONSTANTLY when that's simply not the case. Fact of the matter is you're not actually 1/3 away. Weapons are keyed to defenses, they take them down quicker than they do health. Same goes for most ammo powers, and the same can once again go for many of the powers themselves.

It's getting the point where you should add it to your signature or develop some sort of visual aid.

[Lvl20DM]

Bioware will almost certainly be tweaking combat in ME3, but I think it will still look more like 2 than 1. In general, improved AI (and slightly weaker enemies) would be an improvement. The overall difficulty would be a wash, but it would be more fun if the enemy was more aggressive.

[Googlesaurus]

I'm still bummed that the majority of guns do more damage against defenses than health. It defeats the entire purpose of defenses. 

Modifié par Googlesaurus, 20 décembre 2010 - 02:43 .

[blocks]

I think layers are bull, it's boring even on insanity, not as bad as some make it out to be, but it could definitely be better. I've said this a couple times already but the biggest problem I have with combat is 1. AI and 2. the way it feels, the cover system is pretty bad if you ask me, movement just feels weird in general, firing out of cover feels unnatural etc.



I still really want improved combat and a life or death no bull**** skill based mode:

everyone in the game dies in one or two hits other than krogan and vorcha,

armor takes 2 or 3 hits, so do shields, so do barriers.

Ammo types penetrate through the armor, they don't do more damage to it.

Enemy squads have medics and can also use medigel. Headshots are one hit kills without shields or barriers.

Missiles splash and do much more damage.

To rock paper scissors it out armor doesn't protect from biotics completely but it doesn't let much damage through even with the right ammo type and bullets that don't penetrate don't bother the enemy at all.



etc. etc. etc.

It would need to be balanced but I think it would be awesome, it would match the cutscenes and make the game feel much more life and death.

[Firesteel]

Homey C-Dawg wrote...

Sinosleep may be having an attitude (No worries here Sino, I understand frustration), but as I myself am a long time insanity-only player, I can attest that most everything he's saying is correct.

However, whether or not the game mechanics are actually fun is a matter of pure opinion per person. I love the current system (after I learned the detailed ins-and-outs of the system), but it seems like many don't.

TBH I didn't think the ME1 system was that bad either. I've never seen someone comment of how broken the ME1 system would/wouldn't be if they simple removed the Heat Sync/Frictionless Materials upgrades. Would it still be so broken if you couldn't reduce overheat?

Anyway, what about a compromise? For example, Physics biotics like Throw and Singularity could work on shielded enemies but not on armored ones. This might make more sense as shields shouldn't add weight but armor obviously would.

Or perhaps physics biotics should be reduced in effectiveness by like 60 or 70% until defenses are stripped.
Just some thoughts.

I like this idea of yours, armor should only slightly affect physics based biotics (adding mass),  but that was kind of in ME1, where you couldn't toss Juggernauts and Armatures around until you maxed out a power, which was perfectly okay.