224 réponses à ce sujet

[tonnactus]

sinosleep wrote...

when ENEMY immunity spam is FAR more tedius than ANYTHING in ME 2 by virtue of the fact that NOTHING instantly removes that health boost while ME 2 health boosts ALL have instant counters and as such are OBJECTIVELY less time consuming/tedius.

Warp counters immunity in Mass Effect like it do now with armored foes.With the difference that it was an Aoe-ability and debuff in the first game.Plain and easy.

Now,boss enemies requires multiple warps/incinerates to get rid of their "protection".

And this is better i guess,right....

Modifié par tonnactus, 22 décembre 2010 - 09:28 .

[Arijharn]

sinosleep wrote...
stuff about Immunity

If I remember correctly, Immunity *can* be countered (in a strange round about way that while doesn't work 100% works relatively well).

Max Immunity I think is 75 or 80% damage ignore; max Warp I think is +75% damage.

I agree Immunity was completely bollocks though.

I'm of two minds really about the combat system, I hate rock paper scissors; but I prefered it to ME1 in certain aspects. The thing about ME1 was that at least as an Adept I didn't feel marginalized for most of the game, and only started to feel overpowered when I maxed Singularity (or Bastion Stasis)

I'm not sure how I would really 'fix' the problem though. An earlier thought I had would be to have say 'hypervelocity' rounds (really good vs. Barriers, sub-optimal vs. Shields) and subsonic rounds (opposite effect) and have armour as some sort of passive DR that can be mitigated by biotics/tech or other ammo types, and have either hypervelocity or subsonic be independent of those ammo powers (for example you can have Incendary Ammo and hypervelocity rounds).

But I'm strongly against having 'armour' as another resource to strip from the opponent because it's little more than a contrivance to artificially inflate a fight, whereas shield or barrier has a 'strategy' as such to attach.

LOL Tonnactus said what I said and 12 hours earlier... maybe I should really read the entire thread first...

Modifié par Arijharn, 23 décembre 2010 - 08:28 .

[kelsjet]

Rahzar wrote...
As the game difficulty is increased, enemies should become smarter (i.e. more advanced tactics) in addition to a less drastic increase to defenses and damage. I say "less drastic increase" because a tiny spray of assault rifle fire from an enemy on Insanity in ME2 should not decimate Shepard's shields (or the Hammerhead's shields, for that matter). Likewise, it shouldn't take endless loads of Shepard's rockets, shotgun blasts, sniper shots, etc. to kill a Krogan leader on Insanity difficulty, who is effectively as unintelligent as his hirelings on Normal difficulty.

This is actually a valid point, one that I am surprised has been ignored by the other side.

Any 'difficulty' which separates itself from other 'difficulties' purely through "punishing your mistakes" (e.g. stayed out of cover for an extra 0.2 seconds = death hypothetical example) and by no other means, is a one dimensional increase in difficulty at best, and shallow at worse.

A 'deep' or 'meaningful' increase in difficulty needs to amount to a lot of other things, e.g. enemies having more abilities, being smarter or requiring the player to think more tactically in taking them out (maybe even emphasizing direct use of squad abilities).

Just making enemies at Insanity hit harder and take less damage is a pretty shallow 'increased' difficulty.

[Lumikki]

I can't say much because it would require knowing the both game system really well. How ever, I can tell how it feels to me. This opinion is more from Infiltrators perspective, what I liked to play most.

In general ways I don't like how Bioware does the difficulty, as adding so much damage and weaken defence. When it should be more like every difficulty level add something new in enemies, like power or some new actions or tactics what they can use. Meaning adjust the damage and defence just little bit, but make enemies act differently.

As for layers, like health, armor and shields. I think it's fine if they have different properties as been better to agaist something than others. Of cause the layers should not be so total one way or other, but have affect. Example some layer could be only 50% affective agaist something, while 75% affective agaist something else. How ever, going too extreme ways, can make some attacts totally useless, what isn't good. So, as long layers stays in reason, it's fine, because it creates variety. Also it's reasonable that people would create defensive stuff to all different kind of attacks and not think that some bionics attacks damage can't be redused with technlogy.

Now at last the ME1 and ME2 combat. In my opinon bionic was too strong in ME1 while weapon combat wasn't good at all. Too much ME1 combat allowed more middle age type of actions. Like if players armor and damage was good enough, player could just rush in open battle field and over power the enemies, while armors handled the damage. In ME2 they made weapons work better and combat turned more modern. Meaning defence was never really that overpowered, combat was more like cover to cover jumping.

In my opions how people see what's good combat is also related what kind of combat they likes and what character classes they like to play. Example here in this forum can easyly see how people who played more weapon based classes likes ME2 more, while more bionic classes liked ME1 more. Not all players, but in general ways. This is also related directly how powerful players feeled they characters to be. Also how usefull they feeled they abilities (powers) where in different situations and how many different possibilities they had.

So, in my opinion layers, difficulty and combat style, it's all about keeping players options open enough, so that it's not comming on / off type of combat. How ever, not every action has to be allways equal effective agaist something. Also AI and characters needs to be more than damage and defence.

Modifié par Lumikki, 23 décembre 2010 - 11:22 .

[Lt. Yakmeihov]

.

Modifié par Lt. Yakmeihov, 23 décembre 2010 - 04:33 .

[Lt. Yakmeihov]

 they should just make better A.I. all around, they should tweak or get rid of scanning. I propose that they incorporate every aspect of ME1 and ME2 into ME3 with what ever else they had instore with it. to create a game we all can enjoy with guns that never run out of ammo with rechargable heat sinks, smarter A.I., muti-tasking powers with their own catagories such as specified biotic and techs, upgradeable/perchaseable armor/weapons, and great vehicle missions because a good piece of gaming philosophy is to always add to a game never take away.

Modifié par Lt. Yakmeihov, 23 décembre 2010 - 04:35 .

[sinosleep]

kelsjet wrote...

This is actually a valid point, one that I am surprised has been ignored by the other side.

Any 'difficulty' which separates itself from other 'difficulties' purely through "punishing your mistakes" (e.g. stayed out of cover for an extra 0.2 seconds = death hypothetical example) and by no other means, is a one dimensional increase in difficulty at best, and shallow at worse.

A 'deep' or 'meaningful' increase in difficulty needs to amount to a lot of other things, e.g. enemies having more abilities, being smarter or requiring the player to think more tactically in taking them out (maybe even emphasizing direct use of squad abilities).

Just making enemies at Insanity hit harder and take less damage is a pretty shallow 'increased' difficulty.

People have been ignoring it because EVERYONE wants better AI, and always has. And yet throughout the years what's been the standard solution to increased difficulty levels? Increased enemy health, accuracy, and numbers while gimping the player. If it was as easy as make better AI don't you think the industry would have done so by now? 

tonnactus wrote...

Warp counters immunity in Mass Effect like it do now with armored foes.With the difference that it was an Aoe-ability and debuff in the first game.Plain and easy.

Now,boss enemies requires multiple warps/incinerates to get rid of their "protection".

And this is better i guess,right....

Skip to 5:17. Dude takes damned near a minute to kill a dude with immunity on AFTER he cast warp on him. Which is why I've never really considered warp a direct counter to immunity in the same fashion that reave/inferno ammo/viper/widow/carnifex/warp/etc are in ME 2.

Compare that to me taking out an "elite" mob the Legionarre in no time flat at 3:10 of this video



With regards to actuall BOSS type enemies like YMIR Mechs and Gunships I don't care if they take a long time to kill, it's when standard mooks take 40 seconds to kill that I have problems with the game design.

Modifié par sinosleep, 23 décembre 2010 - 04:48 .

[vargatom]

Enemies have 100% damage and concentrate their fire on Shepard when out of cover; the two team members however have about 30-50% damage and rarely focus their fire on Shepard's target.



4 enemies vs. Shepard is 4 times higher DPS most of the time.

[kelsjet]

sinosleep wrote...

People have been ignoring it because EVERYONE wants better AI, and always has. And yet throughout the years what's been the standard solution to increased difficulty levels? Increased enemy health, accuracy, and numbers while gimping the player. If it was as easy as make better AI don't you think the industry would have done so by now? 

This is not entirely accurate.

'Better AI' is not the "magic bullet" that can solve the difficulty problem. True, it is part of the solution, but it alone won't do much.

Barring better AI, there are many other things that can increase challenge above and beyond just "increasing the numbers". Increasing the complexity of an encounter is just one example.

I can explain what this means with a simple hypothetical.

Say on Normal difficulty you have a boss. He has shields, armor, HP and does X damage in a pretty straightforward fashion. Like normal, you can take away his defenses using normal means (guns/biotics/tech etc) and then kill him.

On Insanity the same boss can be changed as follows. He still has shields, armor, hp and does 1.5x damage, but now he has some new attacks and needs new techniques to defeat.
For example, you can't anymore take out his shields using just guns/tech, but instead, you need to position the boss next to/under some environment object then detonate that object. You can't just burn down his armor using 'normal' means, but now have to pull off a special combo using multiple powers to make a dent (e.g. he needs to be hit with a biotic attack first to stagger him, then hit with a tech attach to confuse him and only then do you get a X second window to damage his armor).
Furthermore, you can add that the boss now also randomly charges an ally or can randomly stasis an ally, forcing you to be smarter in timing when you want to pull off your "armor burn combo".

This is just a simple example I thought up right now. It by no means is the best one someone can come up with, but I think it shows what "increasing complexity" can mean. It doesn't really require better "AI", just better scripting, which is an easy task nowadays, and is being done in multiple places.


Similar ideas can be propagated to 'group' or 'swarm' encounters. Where on higher difficulty the enemy group now adds a few more variables for the player to manage, above just "I need to do more damage to them to get by".

[sinosleep]

I don't like it too much for changing how defenses are taken down, but omething like that would work very well for offensive powers. Good stuff.

[Zaxares]

With the exception of Immunity just making everything take 10x as long to kill, I actually liked the defense layer system better in ME1 than in ME2. Here's how I would like to see it:

1. Every enemy has Health. Health no longer regenerates, either for you or your opponents except for certain races like Krogan and Vorcha. To restore health, you need to use medi-gel. Certain armor upgrades or class powers may grant health regeneration, however.

2. Some enemies have Armor. Just like in ME1, armor functions as a straight integer reduction of how much damage you take. Certain powers such as Warp or Incinerate can destroy armor, making it easier to damage tough foes. Armor does not regenerate while in combat unless renewed with special powers such as Fortification.

3. Most enemies have Shields (or kinetic barriers). Just like in ME1, shields automatically regenerate over time, even while in combat, while certain powers or upgrades can renew shields automatically. Shields protect you from projectile weapons and explosions, but not from melee attacks, fire attacks, or chemical weapons.

4. Biotic enemies have Barriers. Barriers serve two functions; they add to their Shield defenses, but Barriers also give biotics a chance to resist the effects of other biotic powers targeted against them. For example, a biotic uses Pull on a group of enemies. The common grunts and the YMIR mech are automatically affected by the Pull (although the Pull has much reduced effect and duration against the YMIR due to its sheer mass), but the enemy Biotic resisted the Pull due to her Barriers (and taking off a certain amount of the Barriers in the process). Shields/Armor etc. provide no protection against biotic powers.

This makes Biotics the quintessential crowd controller in battle, and a reason to tie in with the whole "OMG, they've got a Biotic with them!" feeling that seems to show up so often in lore. Biotics are rare, and are the reason why Asari soldiers are so feared in battle.

To counteract the fact that biotics have just gotten a MAJOR power boost, new armor upgrades can be included in the game that provide a chance to resist biotic powers (in-built miniature mass effect field generators that automatically activate to counter biotic powers when the suit's computer detects them etc). (Perhaps passive class powers can also grants resistance to biotic powers.) Most enemies will not have such upgrades, but elite or boss characters certainly might.

Modifié par Zaxares, 24 décembre 2010 - 03:08 .

[Lumikki]

Zaxares wrote...

1. Every enemy has Health. Health no longer regenerates, either for you or your opponents except for certain races like Krogan and Vorcha. To restore health, you need to use medi-gel. Certain armor upgrades or class powers may grant health regeneration, however.

Just commenting this. My characters and squad members "never" needed medi-gel at all. All of them regenerated health allways, because like you sayed armor upgrades. Also some classes (skill) and races have regeneration even without armor upgrades. So, in ME1 you did have health regeneration. If you did not use it....

Modifié par Lumikki, 24 décembre 2010 - 09:44 .

[tonnactus]

sinosleep wrote...



Skip to 5:17. Dude takes damned near a minute to kill a dude with immunity on AFTER he cast warp on him. Which is why I've never really considered warp a direct counter to immunity in the same fashion that reave/inferno ammo/viper/widow/carnifex/warp/etc are in ME 2.

Compare that to me taking out an "elite" mob the Legionarre in no time flat at 3:10 of this video



With regards to actuall BOSS type enemies like YMIR Mechs and Gunships I don't care if they take a long time to kill, it's when standard mooks take 40 seconds to kill that I have problems with the game design.

First,i cant watch the first vid anymore because i live in germany and it was blocked by you tube for my country.
But when i remember it right,Krogan Warlords like in this vid were subbosses. So i rather compare them with a blue sun commander then with a legionaire.No one could tell me anyway that Immunity on a krogan was worser then an enemy like Kuril with high Armor,Shields and health,and also,immune to most biotics until his "defenses" are down.
(and also protected by never ending spawning of Blue Sun mobs until you kill him)

The difference in Mass was you could prevent actually a krogan from using immunity with biotics ,warp him and then kill him fast.Also,this guy plays without squadmembers and warp stacked as an Debuff in Mass Effect.

Modifié par tonnactus, 24 décembre 2010 - 07:30 .

[sinosleep]

Hold on, so you can't watch the video, so you're just going to make things up? The video I posted was NOT the same guy as the solo vid I posted earlier, he had his squad with him. Not only that, but the enemy he fought WASN'T a Krogan. On insanity in ME 1 Krogan are NOT the only enemy type to spam immunity. So yeah, the legionaire comparison was perfectly valid, harder than your average enemy but not in the sub boss category.

Modifié par sinosleep, 24 décembre 2010 - 07:34 .

[tonnactus]

sinosleep wrote...

Hold on, so you can't watch the video, so you're just going to make things up? The video I posted was NOT the same guy as the solo vid I posted earlier, he had his squad with him. Not only that, but the enemy he fought WASN'T a Krogan.

Okay,my mistake. First,he didnt use his squad talents right and not even his own.He has carnage,what would speed up the killing time significantly after casting warp.He didnt use Wrex talents or did i miss something.I also didnt know how much points in warp he actually has.But an enemy like this should be killed far faster with Master Warp and actually prevent them from using immunity with biotics.

[sinosleep]

I'd stake my life on the fact that your average enemy in ME 1 takes longer to kill than your average enemy in ME 2 when playing on insanity. Which is really all I've been driving at all along. Hell, the biggest reason enemies take any significant amount of time to kill at all in ME 2 is usually you having to worry about your own health, not the fact that they have huge health bars themselves. The fact that the enemy he was shooting it was completely CC'd and STILL took that long to kill speaks volumes.

In ME 2 when fighting enemies with multiple layers of defense I spend more time fighting defensively so I don't get killed than I do actually doing the killing. If I could CC them and simply stand in front of them blasting away I'd kill them even quicker than I already do.

I mean take a look at 7:14 of this video where I'm fighting an enemy with both shields and armor.

Time spent watching my own ass about 30 seconds

Time spent shooting the guy 7:38 - 7:42 7:50 - 7:54 4 shots total and yeah, I realize he was down about 1/3 of his shield so you could round it up, the point being all n all he actual amount of time and damage to KILL him isn't very long cause the health bar isn't nearly as big as people seem to think it is.

Although again I'd like to clarify, I don't have a problem with bosses taking some time to kill, it's a video game staple I've grown accustom to so it doesn't really bother me. It's when STANDARD mobs take forever that I get PO'ed.

Modifié par sinosleep, 24 décembre 2010 - 08:19 .

[tonnactus]

sinosleep wrote...

I'd stake my life on the fact that your average enemy in ME 1 takes longer to kill than your average enemy in ME 2 when playing on insanity.

Oh,i wouldnt do that considering that your standard enemy in Mass Effect was the Geth Trooper and not the human merc.And even shocktroopers were easy to kill.

Which is really all I've been driving at all along. Hell, the biggest reason enemies take any significant amount of time to kill at all in ME 2 is usually you having to worry about your own health, not the fact that they have huge health bars themselves. The fact that the enemy he was shooting it was completely CC'd and STILL took that long to kill speaks volumes.

Like i wrote,that guy in the vid didnt use his and the talents of his squadmembers well.I could kill such mercs far faster in Mass Effect.

Modifié par tonnactus, 24 décembre 2010 - 09:23 .

[Kronner]

tonnactus wrote...

Like i wrote,that guy in the vid didnt use his and the talents of his squadmembers well.I could kill such mercs far faster in Mass Effect.

Really? Considering average enemy - Although they were just helplessly flying in ME1, after you CCd them, they could still take a lot of damage on Insanity. In ME2 you can kill them a lot faster.

To demonstrate, I use only squad + melee attack here
If anything, ME2 mercs are too weak.

[sinosleep]

No Kronner! Don't give em any ideas!

[tonnactus]

Kronner wrote...


Really? Considering average enemy - Although they were just helplessly flying in ME1, after you CCd them, they could still take a lot of damage on Insanity

Only human/krogans,and only if they arent snipers. Like i wrote,your standard enemy in the first game was the Geth Trooper,not human mercs like now. Such an enemy is killed in 1-2 seconds with a spectre rifle and tungsten ammo.
Funny that the geth are far tougher then humans now because of Geth Shield boost.

Modifié par tonnactus, 25 décembre 2010 - 06:27 .

[Schneidend]

vargatom wrote...

Enemies have 100% damage and concentrate their fire on Shepard when out of cover; the two team members however have about 30-50% damage and rarely focus their fire on Shepard's target.

4 enemies vs. Shepard is 4 times higher DPS most of the time.

I believe they only insta-aggro to Shepard if you pop your head out of cover while utilizing the "cover" position. If you're just running around Storming the enemies don't focus on you as much.

[ItsFreakinJesus]

tonnactus wrote...

Kronner wrote...


Really? Considering average enemy - Although they were just helplessly flying in ME1, after you CCd them, they could still take a lot of damage on Insanity

Only human/krogans,and only if they arent snipers. Like i wrote,your standard enemy in the first game was the Geth Trooper,not human mercs like now. Such an enemy is killed in 1-2 seconds with a spectre rifle and tungsten ammo.
Funny that the geth are far tougher then humans now because of Geth Shield boost.

Not true at all.  I've used lift in conjuction with throw or High Explosive Rounds on Insanity in ME1, launched enemies hundreds, if not thousands of feet into the air, across chasms no less, and had them land on the ground, get back up, and attempt to take pot shots at me while being specks in the distance.  Geth, human/krogan/turian/asari, and even husks survived these ridiculous falls (though not so ridiculous in regards to husks).

The amount of damage enemies soaked up on Insanity in ME1 was borderline ridiculous.  But even so, I liked how they handled biotic powers in ME1.  Even though something like Throw wouldn't do anything because the enemy still had shields, they would still at least go flying, keeping the crowd control nature of powers intact.

When you have half a dozen husks running at you in ME2 on Insanity and you're low on health, the fact that biotic powers or Concussive Shot won't at least knock them to the ground is a little ridiculous. 

Let someone with shields or armor be resistant to biotic damage, but if I hit them with throw, they should stumble to the ground, not stand there, shrug it off, and continue firing.

[vargatom]

Schneidend wrote...
I believe they only insta-aggro to Shepard if you pop your head out of cover while utilizing the "cover" position. If you're just running around Storming the enemies don't focus on you as much.

Yeah, popping out of cover you're a stationary target and a lot easier to hit in real life. Still, the game should apply modifiers so that you're rewarded for staying in cover... but punishing people for storming around would make Vanguards and Sentinels kinda sad, too.

It's a complicated issue. Halo has it easy, there they can penalize players by increasing AI accuracy with every second spent outside cover because the Master Chief is supposed to be a clever soldier. But some of the player casts in ME actually depend on agressive approaches and that means leaving cover... I can see the designer's dilemma here.

[vargatom]

Aren't biotics still working on protected enemies as well, but with reduced efficiency or no damage? I'd say it's OK if Throw knocks them back with 0 damage... but what about Pull? That'd make enemies pretty vulnerable instantly if it'd work even on protections.

[tonnactus]

ItsFreakinJesus wrote...


The amount of damage enemies soaked up on Insanity in ME1 was borderline ridiculous.

First,neither biotics or high explosive rounds were meant to be damaging in the first game.(weapon force is not weapon damage)
The purpose of biotics was Crowd Control/Debuff(Warp) and then finish them off with weapons.
And then it was balanced in the way that Shepardt himself and his team could get really good defense abilities.
I agree that immunity was stupid and it was right that they removed it. But that some human enemies have nearly as much "protection" as an ymir and dont need cover is absurd.Why warden kuril got better armor(shepardt doesnt have real armor anyway) and shields then shepardt? This doesnt make any sense.