119 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

Bocks wrote...

Zulu, it makes sense that Bioware made it difficult for Shepard to actually die. Consider that they made it much less difficult and actually commonplace for people's playthroughs to end tragically. Not only would they be unable to import their characters into ME3, but it would make Bioware look less and less towards content aimed at the choices you made in the first two games. Every playthrough in which Shepard dies is one more playthrough of meaningless decision-making, and hence Bioware don't have to focus on making content for, say, Shiala or Gianna Parasini or Emily Wong in ME3.

Solution: Reload last pre-SM save, replay it. Or play the whole game for the second time.

As is, it's practically impossible to get Shepard killed without a determined intention of doing so, and they could just as well make Shepard unkillable.

Bocks wrote...
Meaningless deaths might be painful for a while, but they ultimately
contribute nothing and are there simply for the sake of have people
die, which is always poor. It's the equivalent of a screamer in horror
movies. A cheap way to gain emotion out of the audience.

Cheap or not, it's a way to make the "suicide mission" feel realistic and immersive, since the concept of a story death is implemented.

BTW, you can sometimes see a post like "I got everyone out alive! On insanity!!!"

Well, ignorance is bliss.

[Bocks]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Bocks wrote...

Zulu, it makes sense that Bioware made it difficult for Shepard to actually die. Consider that they made it much less difficult and actually commonplace for people's playthroughs to end tragically. Not only would they be unable to import their characters into ME3, but it would make Bioware look less and less towards content aimed at the choices you made in the first two games. Every playthrough in which Shepard dies is one more playthrough of meaningless decision-making, and hence Bioware don't have to focus on making content for, say, Shiala or Gianna Parasini or Emily Wong in ME3.

Solution: Reload last pre-SM save, replay it. Or play the whole game for the second time.

As is, it's practically impossible to get Shepard killed without a determined intention of doing so, and they could just as well make Shepard unkillable.

Bocks wrote...
Meaningless deaths might be painful for a while, but they ultimately
contribute nothing and are there simply for the sake of have people
die, which is always poor. It's the equivalent of a screamer in horror
movies. A cheap way to gain emotion out of the audience.

Cheap or not, it's a way to make the "suicide mission" feel realistic and immersive, since the concept of a story death is implemented.

BTW, you can sometimes see a post like "I got everyone out alive! On insanity!!!"

Well, ignorance is bliss.

First, it doesn't matter if you go back and change you rplaythrough. It is embedded into Bioware's death-o-meter. Every single death = less chance of the dead character(s) playing a large role in ME3.

Also, I CARE if Bioware use cheap tactics to get emotiion out of the audience. The entertainment industry as a whole is degenerating and caring less and less about producing art and more about profiting, and it's people who don't care to change this that are contributing to this downfall. Compared to Total Annihilation, Starcraft 2 has no idea how to make a powerful atmosphere.

[Zulu_DFA]

Bocks wrote...

First, it doesn't matter if you go back and change you rplaythrough. It is embedded into Bioware's death-o-meter. Every single death = less chance of the dead character(s) playing a large role in ME3.

The chances of Mthe E2 squadmates to play a large role in ME3 are minimal to zero, because of the fact that they a killable. Casey Hudson openly stated this prior to the ME2 release.

Bocks wrote...
Also, I CARE if Bioware use cheap tactics to get emotiion out of the audience. The entertainment industry as a whole is degenerating and caring less and less about producing art and more about profiting, and it's people who don't care to change this that are contributing to this downfall. Compared to Total Annihilation, Starcraft 2 has no idea how to make a powerful atmosphere.

Can't agree more. And ME2 is a clear example of this degradation practically in every aspect. In part I think, that the "suicide mission" was meant to be better designed (deadlier), but the dev team didn't have the time.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 18 décembre 2010 - 12:52 .

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

*sighs*

Firstly OP, you need to change your title to state there maybe spoilers. Either that or some people need to go back through the pages and remove said spoilers that they have put in their posts. There is at least one on the first page that discusses the suicide mission.



On-topic, like some others have said. Sorry but considering I've done 8 playthroughs already, if I had every single one of them have the whole squad/crew make it out alive that would be dull imho. Also OP you fail to grasp how when some people say they 'hate' a character they might mean that their Shepard hates a character and were forced to bring them along, something you haven't even thought about not even in your edit. I have characters that don't like various people in the squad, granted some don't even need to be recruited, but there are some which are and as such, tend to find themselves meeting a dead end.

Variety is the spice of life. Case in point, some of the squad not making it out alive allows for variance in discussions with people (as seen in LotSB)

[lazuli]

When discussing the Suicide Mission and whether or not it actually qualifies as one, it's best to take two things into account:



1) Forum regulars are not accurate representations of the average ME2 player.

2) How many times have you gone through the Suicide Mission? Compare subsequent playthroughs to your first, especially if you didn't use a guide.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

lazuli wrote...

When discussing the Suicide Mission and whether or not it actually qualifies as one, it's best to take two things into account:

1) Forum regulars are not accurate representations of the average ME2 player.
2) How many times have you gone through the Suicide Mission? Compare subsequent playthroughs to your first, especially if you didn't use a guide.

On my first playthrough, the second day ME2 was out and without a guide, I got everyone out safe except Thane (who I sent into the vents knowing he would die). It was not difficult at all to guess who Bioware wanted you to choose for what.

[Mecha Tengu]

I killed off miranda



my justifications are: I dont like her



and roleplay wise: I dont like her spying on me on behalf of the illusive man

[lazuli]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

lazuli wrote...

When discussing the Suicide Mission and whether or not it actually qualifies as one, it's best to take two things into account:

1) Forum regulars are not accurate representations of the average ME2 player.
2) How many times have you gone through the Suicide Mission? Compare subsequent playthroughs to your first, especially if you didn't use a guide.

On my first playthrough, the second day ME2 was out and without a guide, I got everyone out safe except Thane (who I sent into the vents knowing he would die). It was not difficult at all to guess who Bioware wanted you to choose for what.

See point one.

[AdmiralCheez]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

So what was the last M-rated action movie where none of the introduced good guys gets killed?

The wonderful thing about Mass Effect is that your ending and my ending can be different.  I happen to like happy endings and am sick and tired of my favorite characters always dying.  Being able to save Wrex on Virmire was like giving a sandwich to a starving man.  Saving the whole team was a glorious feast!

If anything, I'd like to pat Mass Effect 2 on the back for breaking free of the "cool guy always dies" trope.  It gets old after a while; if I see it enough, I just stop caring about the characters at all.  Why root for the guy you know will lose?  Is the "noble sacrifice" truly noble when everyone and their mother is doing it?  It's a nice plot element, but it's overused and unnecessary.

ME2 sucks, of course! At the LIs this time.

What, you expect everyone's personal taste in romantic partners to be covered in six characters?  And wouldn't you complain about lack of originality if Bioware pumped out a character just like Nova?

So why is it so hard to admit that the "suicide mission" would have been only better (possibly better enough to not suck at all) if the odds of survival were lower and a couple or two of manadatory squad deaths peppered it up for real? In a purely videogamey sense?

You totally missed the definition of "purely videogamey sense," didn't you?  And you missed the part where I explained that, since In Utter Darkness was part of some crazy-ass prophetic dream, the deaths weren't real and could be prevented in the future.  I already knew you were a selective reader, since you only bothered to quote the parts of my posts you wanted to make a point of disagreeing with, but now you're being ridiculous.

And there's one major difference between StarCraft and Mass Effect: in SC, you send a bunch of faceless, replaceable peons out to be slaughtered.  In Mass Effect, your soldiers have names and faces, and you get to know them almost as if they were real people.  You only care when the peons die because they cost you time and money, but when someone you know and trust is on the line, you owe it to them to try and save them.

I wouldn't have minded if the suicide mission had been a little tougher and more nuanced.  However, I'm not one of those sadistic bastards who needs the people I care about to die for my dramatic pleasure.  In fact, I am sick and tired of the entertainment industry thinking it has to off the BAMFest of the BAMF just to make things more dramatic.  It's a cheap shot, and I deal with enough death in real life.  No matter how many places I volunteer, no matter how many charities I donate to, no matter how many times I stop by for a visit and help around the house, I can't save the people I care about the most.  Just once I want to escape from that ugly reality and go to a place where I can rescue the people that have come to trust me.  The person on the other side of my computer screen needs to be a hero, because I'm not.  If videogames were a fair reflection of real life, there'd be no point in playing them.

[matt-bassist]

*SPOILERS*

I saved Tali from falling off the platform at the end in a daring slide-grab... unfortunately she died moments later as the platform collapsed. It was truly emotional.

[kill_switch_423]

matt-bassist wrote...

*SPOILERS*
I saved Tali from falling off the platform at the end in a daring slide-grab... unfortunately she died moments later as the platform collapsed. It was truly emotional.

SPOILAHHH

So was she not loyal?  I'd assume that if you were emotionally invested in her character enough to care about her death, you'd have spent the time to make her loyal... O.o;  (Edit::  Unless, of course, you wanted that effect, which is perfectly valid.  I myself have several playthroughs where my favorite characters did not make it, while my "main" Shep saves everyone)

As it was just as emotional for me having saved her, seeing that big ol' platfrom squished her fragile body sscared the **** out of me and I think I literally cheered when I removed the debris andboth she and Garrus made it.

Some people prefer tragedy.  Some prefer ultimate heroism.  Neither is better or worse than the other, and the point is that it is possible to achieve either effect.  Could the SM have had more depth? Definitely.  I liked the suggestion of certain combinations resulting in a death, such as Jack/Miranda or Tali/Legion (seriously, after their scenes would you really expect them to get all buddy-buddy just because you broke up ONE argument?), but no mandatory death please.  ME is about options, and being such a badass mofo' that you can do the impossible.  Saving your whole crew is one of those things.

/2 cents

Modifié par kill_switch_423, 18 décembre 2010 - 11:50 .

[matt-bassist]

Yeah i totally did it on purpose just to see the effect. It was great, you do the whole super slide hand-grab save, then she promptly dies like a minute later. A nice little sucker punch to Shepards gut.

That being said, my main Shep saved everyone, while only a few of my less-favourite teammates died in the final run with my renegade win-at-all-costs FemShep (she's badass)

[Annihilator27]

This is how you get the job done.

[Hathur]

www.youtube.com/watch That's 1 reason right there why it's worth killing your team mates (all of them)... that's one of the most heart-wrenching moments in game.

[Sidac]

If killing team mates screws over the galaxy ill kill joker if i have to!

[Alphyn]

@ AdmiralCheez:







I love you. Have my babies.

[Alphyn]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Solution: Reload last pre-SM save, replay it. Or play the whole game for the second time.

That be so unbelievably tedious and annoying. Need I say more?

Zulu_DFA wrote...
As is, it's practically impossible to get Shepard killed without a determined intention of doing so, and they could just as well make Shepard unkillable.

Well, yeah, Shepard is the protagonist. (S)he is meant to go through three (maybe more) games.
Again, please tell me if I need to say more.

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Cheap or not, it's a way to make the "suicide mission" feel realistic and immersive, since the concept of a story death is implemented.

BTW, you can sometimes see a post like "I got everyone out alive! On insanity!!!"

Well, ignorance is bliss.

The term "suicide mission" is often used to imply that death can happen - not that it will, 100% certainly, kill everyone. It's just down to your decisions, as a commander.
For me, I really do not see the point of purposely killing squad-members when you can save them so easily, by just understanding their character's strengths. You know, like a good commander, who gets to know his/her squad on a personal level, so that they have a better chance of getting out alive.

But, hey, I'm not telling you how to play the game you bought.

[Da_Lion_Man]

Bocks wrote...
Contrary to popular belief, killing off someone in the suicide mission DOESN'T necessarily make the story more interesting or exciting or sad.

Sorry but it does. Doing a "suicide" mission and coming out alive with everyone just kills the credibility of the story. It's awkward and it shouldn't happen. I expect people to die, no matter how strong the team is, we are not invincible. This is not Disneyland, this is a game rated M for Mature.

I had 3 playthroughs, 1 of them was one where everyone died excluding Garrus and Jacob, that was by far the best suicide mission run I had.

[Alphyn]

Da_Lion_Man wrote...

Sorry but it does. Doing a "suicide" mission and coming out alive with everyone just kills the credibility of the story. It's awkward and it shouldn't happen. I expect people to die, no matter how strong the team is, we are not invincible. This is not Disneyland, this is a game rated M for Mature.

I had 3 playthroughs, 1 of them was one where everyone died excluding Garrus and Jacob, that was by far the best suicide mission run I had.

Thing is about that, if, let's say, Garrus died randomly on the mission, despite being a master tactician and brilliant marksman, I'd feel a little mislead that these guys I'm working with truly are the best.

It's a double-edged sword, here.

[AdmiralCheez]

@Da_Lion_Man: You serious? I just feel like a jerk when I kill people off.  It wasn't satisfying at all.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 19 décembre 2010 - 06:07 .

[Alphyn]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

@Da_Lion_Man: You serious? I just feel like a jerk when I kill people off.  It wasn't satisfying at all.

I wouldn't dream of it.
I have enough trouble stomaching the very end "coffin" scene.

[Da_Lion_Man]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

@Da_Lion_Man: You serious? I just feel like a jerk when I kill people off.  It wasn't satisfying at all.

I didn't kill them "deliberately". Well I did, but not in the way you think I did it. I just did a no one loyal/no upgrades playthrough. I thought it was pretty nice. It had a way more dark and realistic feeling to it. I kinda wish my first playthrough was a bit more like that, I'd probably like the story a lot better.

Modifié par Da_Lion_Man, 19 décembre 2010 - 06:11 .

[Da_Lion_Man]

Alphyn wrote...

Da_Lion_Man wrote...

Sorry but it does. Doing a "suicide" mission and coming out alive with everyone just kills the credibility of the story. It's awkward and it shouldn't happen. I expect people to die, no matter how strong the team is, we are not invincible. This is not Disneyland, this is a game rated M for Mature.

I had 3 playthroughs, 1 of them was one where everyone died excluding Garrus and Jacob, that was by far the best suicide mission run I had.

Thing is about that, if, let's say, Garrus died randomly on the mission, despite being a master tactician and brilliant marksman, I'd feel a little mislead that these guys I'm working with truly are the best.

It's a double-edged sword, here.

I didn't think of him as a master tactician. Sure he's good at that but he isn't flawless. He can make mistakes.
I don't believe he's as good at it as, say, a general working for the Alliance.

That said, yes it might be a bit illogical but you're facing impossible odds. Collectors are probably one of the strongest creatures in the galaxy and you go right in their nest.

[AdmiralCheez]

Da_Lion_Man wrote...

I didn't kill them "deliberately". Well I did, but not in the way you think I did it. I just did a no one loyal/no upgrades playthrough. I thought it was pretty nice. It had a way more dark and realistic feeling to it. I kinda wish my first playthrough was a bit more like that, I'd probably like the story a lot better.

I think that's the difference between the save-em-alls and kill-em-alls: the save-em-alls feel responsible for Shepard's actions and put themselves in his/her shoes, while the kill-em-alls are treating it more like a drama in which they are the director or a member of the audience.  I think it's that difference in perspective that makes both sides equally stubborn.

Then again, you could consider yourself a director of a story with a happy ending, or you could put yourself in Shepard's shoes and still make a bad call.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 19 décembre 2010 - 06:23 .

[Da_Lion_Man]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Da_Lion_Man wrote...

I didn't kill them "deliberately". Well I did, but not in the way you think I did it. I just did a no one loyal/no upgrades playthrough. I thought it was pretty nice. It had a way more dark and realistic feeling to it. I kinda wish my first playthrough was a bit more like that, I'd probably like the story a lot better.

I think that's the difference between the save-em-alls and kill-em-alls: the save-em-alls feel responsible for Shepard's actions and put themselves in his/her shoes, while the kill-em-alls are treating it more like a drama in which they are the director or a member of the audience.  I think it's that difference in perspective that makes both sides equally stubborn.

Then again, you could consider yourself a director of a story with a happy ending, or you could put yourself in Shepard's shoes and still make a bad call.

Yeah, it's a lot like that. In my first playthrough I was more of a save-em-all. In my third one, the one with the massacre, I was more like a director who wanted some drama and a bit of realism. Both ways felt pretty good and satisfying in their own way.

But I still think a suicide mission should live up to its name, which wasn't really the case in ME2. I hope they do a bit better in ME3.

Modifié par Da_Lion_Man, 19 décembre 2010 - 06:28 .