42 réponses à ce sujet

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

CalJones wrote...

Yep, although, like KotOR II, it was more a case of it being subcontracted out to them. I'd be very surprised if there wasn't a fair amount of cooperation.

Given that NWN2 had some things brought over from NWN1 (music and certain icons) I'd say that's a safe bet. Bioware probably gave Obsidian alot of files and code to work with in it's development.

[NuclearSerendipity]

Reaverwind wrote...

NuclearSerendipity wrote...

That wouldn't be really that much of a reason to disappointment, if bioware hadn't done it better before. In NWN2, your interaction with your companions, as well as their interaction between theirselves, was simply astonishing. It's like every quest had some sort of situation that would naturally trigger a dialog between you and your companions. 

NWN2 wasn't made by Bioware - it was made by Obsidian.

Woopsie My bad, then.

Allow me to hide in shame right in that corner over there.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

NuclearSerendipity wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

NuclearSerendipity wrote...

That wouldn't be really that much of a reason to disappointment, if bioware hadn't done it better before. In NWN2, your interaction with your companions, as well as their interaction between theirselves, was simply astonishing. It's like every quest had some sort of situation that would naturally trigger a dialog between you and your companions. 

NWN2 wasn't made by Bioware - it was made by Obsidian.

Woopsie My bad, then.

Allow me to hide in shame right in that corner over there.

No need. Like I said, Bioware probably gave alot of stuff to Obsidian to make the game (sound files, mainly) so in an indirect way, they contributed.

Still, MOTB was a far better expansion than Awakenings, and MotB had alot of areas that could have been better.

[NuclearSerendipity]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

No need. Like I said, Bioware probably gave alot of stuff to Obsidian to make the game (sound files, mainly) so in an indirect way, they contributed.

Still, MOTB was a far better expansion than Awakenings, and MotB had alot of areas that could have been better.

It's interesting, though... Makes me curious about how much of the way NWN2 handles character interaction comes from Bioware or Obsidian...

I agree. MotB is outstanding, really, story wise... it's one of my favorite RPG stories. And the whole soul-eating mechanism makes it even more interesting and involving. I just wish they had given more depth to character interaction - specially because your companions are very interesting - and that you had an actual chance of having your choices in NWN2 affect what happens in MotB and what previous companions you meet. (I may be mistaken on this one, but it didn't seem like whatever you chose to do in the OC's had any impact to that respect). Nevertheless, it's a heck of an expansion.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I'd definitely say the character interactions in NWN2 were more Obsidian-esque than Bioware-esque.



No, sadly, nothing you did in NWN2 had any impact on MOTB, which was one of it's major shortcomings. But like you said, the storyline was pretty damned epic. It was a very personal story, somewhat like Planescape, and the whole plot, in my opinion, was even on a higher level of impact, being much deeper and personal.



Awakenings....not really. Like i said, the Mother/Architect thing really was not a bigger threat, or more urgent calling, it almost felt like a big side quest, more than anything. And it never really delivered as far as overall importance, since most of the side quests and content seemed to have little to do with it.

[NuclearSerendipity]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I'd definitely say the character interactions in NWN2 were more Obsidian-esque than Bioware-esque.

No, sadly, nothing you did in NWN2 had any impact on MOTB, which was one of it's major shortcomings. But like you said, the storyline was pretty damned epic. It was a very personal story, somewhat like Planescape, and the whole plot, in my opinion, was even on a higher level of impact, being much deeper and personal.

Awakenings....not really. Like i said, the Mother/Architect thing really was not a bigger threat, or more urgent calling, it almost felt like a big side quest, more than anything. And it never really delivered as far as overall importance, since most of the side quests and content seemed to have little to do with it.

Kudos to Obsidian, then.

Yeah, and not only it was a very personal story... It had an actual central theme of discussion - the "masks" we wear, what they represent, the role they play in our lives, the part of us they are and the conflict between the "masks" and the ones who wear them, between what one's functions in society/religion/etc. are and what one's individuality is, and how your roles in society can be sacrificed for the sake of your individuality (as it happens with the betrayer, for the sake of his love), or vice-versa, when your individuality becomes just the means or the mask through which something else maintains its existence (as it happens to you when the soul of the betrayer possesses you). MotB offers and explores a theme to reflect upon, and does it very nicely, IMO.

(Also, that's one game I never played and sure as hell wish I'd find it somewhere - Planescape. )

Yeah, I think that's a spot on description of Awakening: a really big side quest. Although the Architect decision is really tough and potentially could have great consequences, overall it feels like you're just cutting the remaining loose ends. As much of a threat as the darkspawn not retreating might be, it can't be compared to an actual Blight. And - on a side note - I think one of the most anti-climax endings is when you kill the Mother. As a mage, all that happened for me was throwing one last bit of lightning at her, watching she die and just walking away. I was like "Ok... So, that's it? Really? Oh, there's the epilogue... So that's really it. <_<".

Modifié par NuclearSerendipity, 19 décembre 2010 - 06:42 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

The Architect thing, I think, should have had more exploration in game, more screenshots. You get kidnaped by him, he takes your blood then leaves, and you find out nothing of what he's up to or why until you encounter him in the Mother's lair, and are expected to make a potnetially world/lore changing descision based on one brief conversation with him. At the very end of the game. And that's it.



The Architect's plan, I think deserved far more focus and mention. Perhaps encounters with more Awakened disciples that follow him, giving hints and clues to the whole darkspawn Awakening thing, other than "Oh, wow, look, a talking darkspawn." Since supposedly, talking darkspawn beyond hurlock emmisaries is unheard of in the annals of Warden-ology, I think at the very least, a "WTF? It talks? It has feelings and opinions? How in the hell did that happen? WTF is going on! I want some friggin answers! This is serious sh*T!" would have been in order, instead of going on the major three quests because a Warden is missing, caravans are getting smashed, or some drunk hunters found a big hole in the ground full of darkspawn. They should have made more tie-ins to the Awakening through the major questlines.



The game is, after all, called "Awakening". Unless I totally missed something big in the plot, "Awakening" refers to what the Architect is doing. So it should have played a bigger role.

[NuclearSerendipity]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

The Architect thing, I think, should have had more exploration in game, more screenshots. You get kidnaped by him, he takes your blood then leaves, and you find out nothing of what he's up to or why until you encounter him in the Mother's lair, and are expected to make a potnetially world/lore changing descision based on one brief conversation with him. At the very end of the game. And that's it.

The Architect's plan, I think deserved far more focus and mention. Perhaps encounters with more Awakened disciples that follow him, giving hints and clues to the whole darkspawn Awakening thing, other than "Oh, wow, look, a talking darkspawn." Since supposedly, talking darkspawn beyond hurlock emmisaries is unheard of in the annals of Warden-ology, I think at the very least, a "WTF? It talks? It has feelings and opinions? How in the hell did that happen? WTF is going on! I want some friggin answers! This is serious sh*T!" would have been in order, instead of going on the major three quests because a Warden is missing, caravans are getting smashed, or some drunk hunters found a big hole in the ground full of darkspawn. They should have made more tie-ins to the Awakening through the major questlines.

The game is, after all, called "Awakening". Unless I totally missed something big in the plot, "Awakening" refers to what the Architect is doing. So it should have played a bigger role.

Agreed. In fact, the very few parts in which you actually managed to talk to the disciples were some of the most interesting ones, not the least of the reasons being that you're actually given a glimpse into the fact that they do have a personality and a conscience, specially when you get to talk to that disciple when Amaranthine is going through a siege. It would be interesting if other, experienced wardens would show up to discuss the matter: what should we do to sentient darkspawn? Should we negotiate with them? Is it worth the risk?  Is it just a scam? Can it actually be that they can be more than bloodthirsty monsters? They could have emphatized the Architect's ambiguity too: maybe he shows up sometime before you were imprisioned by him for helping you, for no apparent reason, then disappears without an explanation... Not to mention that the fact that there's a dwarf grey warden willing to help him should be better explored. I haven't done Velanna's side quest, so I don't know whether the fact that her sister gets involved with the Architect is better explored or not.

So, yeah, the Architect storyline had a lot of potential... Which's why it's heartbreaking to have read here before that the devs don't intend to give continuity to it.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

The developers don't plan on expanding upon it? I do hope they reconsider. I think the awakening/Architect potential would add a great grey complexity to the game universe that the Archdemons and Blights simply lack. Another epic choice, much like the US ending for Awakening's imports, that gets tossed aside.



This habit of hugely wasted potential is something I find extremely disappointing, and hope this is not a trend they will continue. It would really ruin the future of a franchise that started out with so much going for it, and reduce it to yet another title amongst the RPG genre.

[TheLegendofWade]

It was a 40 dollar expansion. That price is bull**** considering that the game takes 15-20 hours to complete and a lot of the elements that made DA:O great are missing. It really did seem like it lacked soul.



Based on the track record of the DLC and Awakening....the new direction of DA: 2 has a lot of fans suspicious. Yet, the developers are yelling at the fans and criticizing them for not trusting the developers' decisions. They made a great game in DA:O, but the DLCS and Awakening were too disappointing. How are we to blindly trust DA: 2 and its new direction?



Bah.

[NuclearSerendipity]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

The developers don't plan on expanding upon it? I do hope they reconsider. I think the awakening/Architect potential would add a great grey complexity to the game universe that the Archdemons and Blights simply lack. Another epic choice, much like the US ending for Awakening's imports, that gets tossed aside.

This habit of hugely wasted potential is something I find extremely disappointing, and hope this is not a trend they will continue. It would really ruin the future of a franchise that started out with so much going for it, and reduce it to yet another title amongst the RPG genre.

Well, I read in another topic that they said they wouldn't. Of course, that's the very definition of hearsay... So, let's hope that's just what it is, or that they do reconsider. But, yes, I think it's plain disappointing that one of the most - if not the most - difficult choices from DA:O won't have any repercussion.

I share exacly the same opinion - I find it to be a complete let down that so many great games end up tossing aside some of their best features, or simply not exploring them to their full potential. Yet it does seem like a trend bioware is inclined to follow... From ME to ME2, from DA:O to Awakening... It's too much corners being cut. Personally, the definition I hold for bioware games is "brilliant concept, less than average execution". Which is why one gets disappointed so often: if the game's concepts didn't show so much potential, there'd be no reason to be so disappointed with the corner cutting, the oversimplification some features constantly get submitted to, the features that don't get further explored and developed... I constantly get the feeling I'm playing a game made by brilliant storytellers fumbling with game programming, even if I'm so far off from being an expert or anything on that subject that I really can't tell.

That being said, titles like NWN, NWN2, ME and DA:O are definetely among my top 10 favorite games. Which is precisely why they disappoint me alot more than most games do.

[NuclearSerendipity]

Oh, and did I mention the bugs are really annoying too?

Modifié par NuclearSerendipity, 20 décembre 2010 - 12:16 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

@Legend of Wade: Origins and Awakening/DLCs had different writers and development teams, hence discrepencies and meh. Gaider was the lead writer for the main campaign. Why they don't have the same team doing all of the above, I don't know, but I think that's why they were such letdowns. I can only hope Bioware has taken note of the difference between the fan receptions of Origins vs DLCs and awakening, and have the original team in charge from start to finish in all parts of the game for DA2. From what I understand, as soon as Origins was finished, the origins team went straight on to DA2, hence different teams.



To sum it up: They were rushing everything because they wanted to get to work on the sequel, and get that out on the shelves soon after. Which doesn't make me feel any warmer and fuzzier, especially if this is to become standard policy.



@nuclearserendipity: We share pretty much the same opinions on games. BG and NWN series are also amongst my top all time game favorites. ME certainly ranks highly, though the game controls/mechanics often made gameplay tedious and annoying. But in general, I hope that there won't be a long term trend towards oversimplification/dumbing down of RPGs to make them as popular as other genres. There are plenty enough generes/titles of games for people who simply want bright lights, super guns, loud bangs, and big boobs without having to think about what they are doing or worry about consequences of descisions. As technology improves and increases, I am actually hoping that RPGs would become more complex, in depth, and intelligent.



I can't say the developer/marketing claims of "push a button, something awesome happens" or "think like a general, fight like a Spartan" are filling me with much confidence in DA2, but I shall wait and see, and hope Bioware's mojo will work it's magic once again, and DA2 will make me forget Awakenings/DLC disappointments.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

NuclearSerendipity wrote...

Oh, and did I mention the bugs are really annoying too?

Oh yeah, the bugs SUCKED! Talk about immersion breaking. I ended up shelving the game for months waiting for Bioware to fix the plethora of crappy bugs 1.03 and Awakening introduced. I mean, there was nothing "game breaking" for me, in the sense that the game could not be continued mechanically, but from the perspective of immersion/RP interaction, it was a cross the board fail. Not being able to do Sigrun's or Velanna's personal quests, having to meet the Architect butt nekkid to avoid losing your awesome gear,  100 automatic approval with a companion you just met, not being able to steal or have your dog fetch random crap,...just off the top of my head...

Epic fail, Bioware QA.<_<

[Zjarcal]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

@Legend of Wade: Origins and Awakening/DLCs had different writers...

According to the Wiki and this post , Gaider and Chee did the writing for Awakening, along with Ferret A. Baudoin. Although I don't know who was the lead for this project.

But I attribute the disparity in quality in this case more to the rushed nature of Awakening.

To be honest, I don't doubt that DA2 will be a great game, probably on par with Origins. Expansions and DLC just don't get the same attention as a full blown sequel.

EDIT: Bioware QA does suck big time. 

Modifié par Zjarcal, 20 décembre 2010 - 12:34 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Thanks for the correction. I thought they had different writing teams as well.



Then I guess it was just a case of overall rush/sloppieness because of the hurry to get to work on DA2.

[ejoslin]

Different lead designer as well... do not forget that. THAT is what makes me so nervous. DAO -- Brent Knowles. DAOA + DLC -- Mike Laidlaw. I'm just hoping HOPING it's due to rush and not the vision of a new lead designer wanting a completely different kind of game.

[NuclearSerendipity]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

@nuclearserendipity: We share pretty much the same opinions on games. BG and NWN series are also amongst my top all time game favorites. ME certainly ranks highly, though the game controls/mechanics often made gameplay tedious and annoying. But in general, I hope that there won't be a long term trend towards oversimplification/dumbing down of RPGs to make them as popular as other genres. There are plenty enough generes/titles of games for people who simply want bright lights, super guns, loud bangs, and big boobs without having to think about what they are doing or worry about consequences of descisions. As technology improves and increases, I am actually hoping that RPGs would become more complex, in depth, and intelligent.

I can't say the developer/marketing claims of "push a button, something awesome happens" or "think like a general, fight like a Spartan" are filling me with much confidence in DA2, but I shall wait and see, and hope Bioware's mojo will work it's magic once again, and DA2 will make me forget Awakenings/DLC disappointments.

Yeah, we do. It's nice to be able to rant about these things with someone willing to bash just as much precisely the same topics.
Unfortunately, I still didn't get around playing BG... But I will eventually manage to. I must say Fallout (the first one) ranks quite high in my list too, for a number of reasons... I guess immersive would be the best way to describe it. XD 

I actually liked ME mechanics in general, but what really makes it one of my favorites is its story and its universe, just how carefully and convincingly they are built and presented, with so much sci-fi themes richly explored and delivered... It's really an outstanding space opera, from its beginning to its end. All about it... The cutscenes, the main dialogues and plots, the soundtrack... I don't know, it really got to me. And as far as bugs go, ME seems to be one of Bioware's titles that handles them the best, specially with party's AI. (NWN's AI was simply HELL, or rather, an painfully slow excursion through ALL THE GODDAMNED NINE HELLS).

I do hope the "dumbing down" trend won't last, but it seems that bioware's having a hard time figuring that what's best and most alluring about their games is precisely these features they seem to think they have to sacrifice or oversimplify, in order to get to the broader public. Quite honestly, I think they got to have the guts to stand for their way of making games, instead of constantly giving up on it in order to fall safely under games' most usual conventions. I've said it before and I'll say it again: if their 'vision' is really to deliver the best story-driven games in the world, then its about friggin' time they stop spoiling the story in order to spoil the gamers, whether by making everything ultimately solvable by "hack 'n' slash" or by sacrificing the story's coherence and consistency in order to allow players to reach their objectives more comfortably.  STOP THE MADNESS! 

And as long as we're openly ranting, I'd like to remind yet another thing: having to use NWN 2's shopping mechanics should be considered torture, or at least slave labor. FOR GOD'S SAKE, let me buy more than one potion per sale!

Modifié par NuclearSerendipity, 20 décembre 2010 - 01:12 .