215 réponses à ce sujet

[Legbiter]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

That would go against everything TIM and Cerberus stand for.  Lets not confuse TIM with a Reaper.  The Reapers want to turn the rest of humanity into "grey goo."

You betcha the Illusive Man would melt the Terminus system if it gave Cerberus a pet Reaper. To save Earth with of course. He'd cry and moan about it, but he'd order it done, in the end.

Which is great for my ruthless renegade Shep, maybe it'll save him from having to smooch the Turians or some other equivalent. The Paragons get to feel all holier-than-thou because of the purity of their bodily fluids, and the fact they spent 2 weeks sorting out the Krogan, while the Reapers rampaged on Earth will seem a price well paid. 

In short, both sides will get something to rationalize their end decision of ME 2. Sorry, but that's just how Bioware rolls.  

[StarcloudSWG]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
...yes, because one Human Reaper, which can only be made after the War's already won (lost) in regard to the Humans, is going to tip the scales of the armada of Reapers and their war to beat the humans.

And because the Reapers can't just rebuild the Base if you destroy it.

Please reread. Pay attention to the bit about time.

That is to say, discovering that the Collector base is intact, the Reapers decide, instead of spending time building a new base, to spend a lot less time repairing the one they already have, which speeds up the invasion.

Because the invasion of Earth comes sooner, in this scenario, Shepard has less time to gather allies and plan a counter attack. This leads to more desperate fighting and the very strong possibility that the Reapers win.

[Vaenier]

AlexXIV wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

People fear Cerberus, and they call them terrorists. Shepard does and so does the council and the Alliance. I don't need to look up the definition but maybe you should.

Terrorism is the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion.[1] No universally agreed, legally binding, criminal law definition of terrorism currently exists.[2][3] Common definitions of terrorism refer only to those violent acts which are intended to create fear (terror), are perpetrated for a religious, political or ideological goal, deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants (civilians), and are committed by non-government agencies.

And this is supposed to prove that they are not terrorists?

Nope, Just thought I would post it to aid in your discussion. Its too vague for me to form my own opinion based off of.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

AlexXIV wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Go look up an actual definition of terrorism. Terrorism is not "doing bad things." Terrorism is a tactic that relies on publicity in order to invoke fear in the hearts of those that witness your actions. Cerberus' actions are covert. They are not terrorists.

People fear Cerberus, and they call them terrorists. Shepard does and so does the council and the Alliance. I don't need to look up the definition but maybe you should.

First, most people haven't heard of Cerberus. Shepard hadn't heard of them until Kahoku. Shepard was surprised when Mordin had heard of them. They're obviously not publicly well known, therefore they cannot be publicly feared.

Second, TIM never says they are terrorists. The only person in Cerberus that uses the term is Jacob. He only says they're called terrorists for good reason, no because they are.

Third, I can call you a puppy, but that doesn't make you one. It doesn't matter what Shepard, the council, the Alliance, or Jacob call them. They do not fit the definition of terrorist in any capacity.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

thegreateski wrote...

Did you miss the part where they are living beings? There is some level of indoctrination going on. Harbinger with his "ASSUMING CONTROL" nonsense is just a very visual form of this. There was no building involved.

Being alive doesn't make the Collectors any less custom-built by the Reapers to give Harbinger the privaledge of "ASSUMING CONTROL."  It's not nonsense when you think about it a bit more.

[luakel]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...
Go look up an actual definition of terrorism. Terrorism is not "doing bad things." Terrorism is a tactic that relies on publicity in order to invoke fear in the hearts of those that witness your actions. Cerberus' actions are covert. They are not terrorists.

Was going to reply to your former post but this thread's moving fast so I'll just reply to this one.

If you classify terrorism solely as about inciting panic in the public, then no, Cerberus is not a terrorist organization. They have not (to our knowledge) carried out any actions to scare the human population, or even the populations of other races. Everything they have done has a goal beyond simply causing fear.

However, terrorism is such a loaded word that many of the things Cerberus has done are things that "terrorist" groups are known for. For example, many of the actions the PIRA took were done to further their political goals, not just to scare people. So the association with terrorism is not unfounded.

But as another poster said, it's semantics; I'm sure someone can find a definition of terrorism that fits Cerberus perfectly, and we could argue about it forever. What is indisputable is that Cerberus is a very secretive organization that sometimes does questionable things to achieve its goals. This in itself does not make it a terrorist organization any more than it makes the NSA a terrorist organization. But the association with things that terrorists do is definitely there.

Legbiter wrote...

In short, both sides will get something to rationalize their end decision of ME 2. Sorry, but that's just how Bioware rolls. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png 

Or we'll both get nothing. Paragons get arrested by the Council for association with a known "terrorist" group and all their renunciations of Cerberus' policies fall on deaf ears, Renegades get informed by TIM that there was nothing at the base and he just blew it up anyway, but he spent so much money investigating it that Shepard's on their own.

Modifié par luakel, 18 décembre 2010 - 11:59 .

[Vaenier]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
...yes, because one Human Reaper, which can only be made after the War's already won (lost) in regard to the Humans, is going to tip the scales of the armada of Reapers and their war to beat the humans.

And because the Reapers can't just rebuild the Base if you destroy it.

Please reread. Pay attention to the bit about time.

That is to say, discovering that the Collector base is intact, the Reapers decide, instead of spending time building a new base, to spend a lot less time repairing the one they already have, which speeds up the invasion.

Because the invasion of Earth comes sooner, in this scenario, Shepard has less time to gather allies and plan a counter attack. This leads to more desperate fighting and the very strong possibility that the Reapers win.

To do so, they must get through the relay, which would have its IFF code modified. then they must make it past the minefield hidden among the wreckage. then they must send husks to recapture the base from its occupants. then they would have to disable a bomb, then they would have to stop us from pushing the relay into the sun.

Modifié par Vaenier, 18 décembre 2010 - 11:57 .

[thegreateski]

Legbiter wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

That would go against everything TIM and Cerberus stand for.  Lets not confuse TIM with a Reaper.  The Reapers want to turn the rest of humanity into "grey goo."

You betcha the Illusive Man would melt the Terminus system if it gave Cerberus a pet Reaper. To save Earth with of course. He'd cry and moan about it, but he'd order it done, in the end.

That's ridiculous, a Reaper is a LIVING BEING. Not some piece of technology you can create and use at will.

Now . . . if we could get our hands on the Armor/shielding of a Reaper . . .

[AlexXIV]

Vaenier wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

People fear Cerberus, and they call them terrorists. Shepard does and so does the council and the Alliance. I don't need to look up the definition but maybe you should.

Terrorism is the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion.[1] No universally agreed, legally binding, criminal law definition of terrorism currently exists.[2][3] Common definitions of terrorism refer only to those violent acts which are intended to create fear (terror), are perpetrated for a religious, political or ideological goal, deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants (civilians), and are committed by non-government agencies.

And this is supposed to prove that they are not terrorists?

Nope, Just thought I would post it to aid in your discussion. Its too vague for me to form my own opinion based off of.

Oh ok I was wondering

At least 3 of 5 points fit as a description of Cerberus and the mere fact that not many know them makes them something different or better? I don't think so. People who know them, know them as terrorists. That's good enough imo.

[Vaenier]

AlexXIV wrote...

Oh ok I was wondering

At least 3 of 5 points fit as a description of Cerberus and the mere fact that not many know them makes them something different or better? I don't think so. People who know them, know them as terrorists. That's good enough imo.

Wouldnt Bioware not understanding what a terrorist is lead to them falsely classifying Cerberus as terrorists?

[Legbiter]

thegreateski wrote...

That's ridiculous, a Reaper is a LIVING BEING. Not some piece of technology you can create and use at will.

Now . . . if we could get our hands on the Armor/shielding of a Reaper . . .

Exactly. The renegades will gain an equivalent advantage as will the paragons, but at some suitably horrible price, depending on your perspective. More than one way to skin a cat, etc.

Modifié par Legbiter, 19 décembre 2010 - 12:02 .

[thegreateski]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

Did you miss the part where they are living beings? There is some level of indoctrination going on. Harbinger with his "ASSUMING CONTROL" nonsense is just a very visual form of this. There was no building involved.

Being alive doesn't make the Collectors any less custom-built by the Reapers to give Harbinger the privaledge of "ASSUMING CONTROL."  It's not nonsense when you think about it a bit more.

From what I understand, the Collectors and Saren had the same type of implants in their bodies that allowed their Reaper masters to take posession of them personally. While Harbinger is not controling an individual Collector  then they are under the influence of indoctrination.

A good example of what I'm talking about would be Benezia who was forced to go along with the Reapers plans even though she didn't want to.

[AlexXIV]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Go look up an actual definition of terrorism. Terrorism is not "doing bad things." Terrorism is a tactic that relies on publicity in order to invoke fear in the hearts of those that witness your actions. Cerberus' actions are covert. They are not terrorists.

People fear Cerberus, and they call them terrorists. Shepard does and so does the council and the Alliance. I don't need to look up the definition but maybe you should.

First, most people haven't heard of Cerberus. Shepard hadn't heard of them until Kahoku. Shepard was surprised when Mordin had heard of them. They're obviously not publicly well known, therefore they cannot be publicly feared.

Second, TIM never says they are terrorists. The only person in Cerberus that uses the term is Jacob. He only says they're called terrorists for good reason, no because they are.

Third, I can call you a puppy, but that doesn't make you one. It doesn't matter what Shepard, the council, the Alliance, or Jacob call them. They do not fit the definition of terrorist in any capacity.

No people calling me a puppy doesn't make me one. But if I am one, and people call me one, then I still am one, right? Question is who they intend to scare. So they have no intention to scare the population, but government, and that disqualifies them as terrorists? It's just a question of tactics if you ask me. They don't want to be seen as terrorists. So they are a special kind of terrorists but still terrorists.

[thegreateski]

Legbiter wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

That's ridiculous, a Reaper is a LIVING BEING. Not some piece of technology you can create and use at will.

Now . . . if we could get our hands on the Armor/shielding of a Reaper . . .

Exactly. The renegades will gain an equivalent advantage as will the paragons, but at some suitably horrible price, depending on your perspective. More than one way to skin a cat, etc.

I think I see what you're saying. You're saying that a Paragon who keeps the base is going to have a different result from a Renegade who keeps the base.

And both of those will have different results then a Paragon/Renegade who destroyed the base.

[Vaenier]

I read it wrong



These arguments are always so fun, everyone is so energetic and lively. Just gota remember to read carefully as everything buzzes by so fast.

Modifié par Vaenier, 19 décembre 2010 - 12:07 .

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

AlexXIV wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

First, most people haven't heard of Cerberus. Shepard hadn't heard of them until Kahoku. Shepard was surprised when Mordin had heard of them. They're obviously not publicly well known, therefore they cannot be publicly feared.

Second, TIM never says they are terrorists. The only person in Cerberus that uses the term is Jacob. He only says they're called terrorists for good reason, no because they are.

Third, I can call you a puppy, but that doesn't make you one. It doesn't matter what Shepard, the council, the Alliance, or Jacob call them. They do not fit the definition of terrorist in any capacity.

No people calling me a puppy doesn't make me one. But if I am one, and people call me one, then I still am one, right? Question is who they intend to scare. So they have no intention to scare the population, but government, and that disqualifies them as terrorists? It's just a question of tactics if you ask me. They don't want to be seen as terrorists. So they are a special kind of terrorists but still terrorists.

Ok, name one time Cerberus made an attack that was intended to scare a government.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

thegreateski wrote...
From what I understand, the Collectors and Saren had the same type of implants in their bodies that allowed their Reaper masters to take posession of them personally. While Harbinger is not controling an individual Collector  then they are under the influence of indoctrination.

A good example of what I'm talking about would be Benezia who was forced to go along with the Reapers plans even though she didn't want to.

They were different.  Saren kept his mind and could never be "taken over," just heavily influenced toward the wanting to accomplish Reaper goals.  He wouldn't have been able to commit suicide if he were under the control you're suggesting.

The Collectors are drones... actually I think they're even officially called that.

[AlexXIV]

Vaenier wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Oh ok I was wondering

At least 3 of 5 points fit as a description of Cerberus and the mere fact that not many know them makes them something different or better? I don't think so. People who know them, know them as terrorists. That's good enough imo.

Wouldnt Bioware not understanding what a terrorist is lead to them falsely classifying Cerberus as terrorists?

Well depends on the definiton of 'terrorist' in the year 2185 or whichever. As your quote said, there is no legal term that discribes terrorism. More or less it is an illegal orgianisation with a warlike behaviour against legel political forces. In essence I think a terrorist is an 'enemy of the state'.

[Phaedon]

But we already know what TIM does with the base. (Retribution)

Good job setting your priorities straight and not failing this project too, TIMmy.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Phaedon wrote...

But we already know what TIM does with the base. (Retribution)
Good job setting your priorities straight and not failing this project too, TIMmy.

Retribution doesn't assume that the base was kept or destroyed.

As to the failure of the project, well you have the traitorous Anderson to thank for that, no TIM.

[MadMapper]

Cerberus is evil and plays unfair, but it isn't a terrorist group. Balak and the batarians that tried to crash an asteroid on Terra Nova are terrorists. And the batarians that launched the missiles on that sidequest. (Whoah, looks like batarians are all terrorists...)

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

MadMapper wrote...

Cerberus is evil and plays unfair, but it isn't a terrorist group. Balak and the batarians that tried to crash an asteroid on Terra Nova are terrorists. And the batarians that launched the missiles on that sidequest. (Whoah, looks like batarians are all terrorists...)

I disagree with you that Cerberus is evil, but you understand that a group that commits acts of violence != terrorist group.

[thegreateski]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

thegreateski wrote...
From what I understand, the Collectors and Saren had the same type of implants in their bodies that allowed their Reaper masters to take posession of them personally. While Harbinger is not controling an individual Collector  then they are under the influence of indoctrination.

A good example of what I'm talking about would be Benezia who was forced to go along with the Reapers plans even though she didn't want to.

They were different.  Saren kept his mind and could never be "taken over," just heavily influenced toward the wanting to accomplish Reaper goals.  He wouldn't have been able to commit suicide if he were under the control you're suggesting.

The Collectors are drones... actually I think they're even officially called that.

Ah. But you're missing a vital point. The more control a Reaper exerts, the less capable its thralls become.

Saren was kept under a low level of control. The reason why he killed himself (possibly) after Shepard convinced him he was being controlled by Sovereign is because Sovereign was about to increase his control over Saren (which he did, but with technology instead of indoctrination).

Modifié par thegreateski, 19 décembre 2010 - 12:15 .

[Phaedon]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...
Retribution doesn't assume that the base was kept or destroyed.

As to the failure of the project, well you have the traitorous Anderson to thank for that, no TIM.

Traitorous ? For a rogue operative/mass murderer/terrorist, you guys really consider TIM a patriot and Kahoku and Anderson traitors.

[AlexXIV]

Phaedon wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...
Retribution doesn't assume that the base was kept or destroyed.

As to the failure of the project, well you have the traitorous Anderson to thank for that, no TIM.

Traitorous ? For a rogue operative/mass murderer/terrorist, you guys really consider TIM a patriot and Kahoku and Anderson traitors.

I think it is common that terrorists don't consider themselves as such, but rather everyone else as traitors and terrorists.