215 réponses à ce sujet

[Praetor Knight]

I vote to replace the word renegade for maverick which means: a person of independent or unorthodox views.

Renegade:

1. a person who deserts a party or cause for another.

2. an apostate from a religious faith.

Synomyms for Renegade include traitor, deserter, betrayer, dissenter.



And I destroy the Collector Base

[AlexXIV]

thegreateski wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

To get on the same page with everyone.

Do we consider people evil for doing evil things or for being human or not human?

Evil things. But right now the conversation is about whether or not Anderson is a traitor for handing Cerberus to the Turians on a silver platter.

According to the council in ME2 Cerberus are an enemy to the council. And the alliance is part of the council races. So the question is if Anderson is a traitor because he hands an enemy of the Council to agents of the council? Humanity may have to decide whether they want to be part of the council or go their own way. I mean if the Alliance loves Cerberus they can as well say so openly.

[MadMapper]

Wait - they abducted Jack and alot of other childrens too... Grayson worked for Cerberus and he's not his real father... Gillian+Hendel ESCAPE from cerberus with the Quarian ship...

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

luakel wrote...
What other choice did he have? If the Alliance is so connected to a group that most of the galaxy loathes on principle that they can't aid one of their most decorated and well-known soldiers, why should Anderson care if the Alliance suffers for it? Cerberus does nothing to improve their reputation; maybe the work they do is far more important than PR, but that doesn't give them the right to act like the victim when their bad reputation comes back to bite them. The turians have very good reason to attack Cerberus, and knowing what he does about their actions, so does Anderson.

What other choice did he have? Maybe he should have done nothing. If Anderson knows how intertwined Cerberus and the Alliance are, then he has to know how important they are. Taking down Cerberus hurts the Alliance. Anderson purposely led a Turian squad (without Alliance knowledge) to take down an organization whose demise would be harmful to the Alliance. That is treasonous to me. I hope we get the chance to make Anderson answer for his crimes in ME3.

[Phaedon]

thegreateski wrote...
The difference between yourself and me. I have problems with killing anybody. Period.

But you do agree on detaining them? Well I do too, but when they hold Gorgon assault rifles it's a bit difficult to do that. And no, letting them continue what they are doing is not a possibility.

[AlexXIV]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

I vote to replace the word renegade for maverick which means: a person of independent or unorthodox views.
Renegade:
1. a person who deserts a party or cause for another.
2. an apostate from a religious faith.
Synomyms for Renegade include traitor, deserter, betrayer, dissenter.

And I destroy the Collector Base

Renegade is sort of beyond good and evil. Some renegade actions are still somewhere on the good side, but there are also those who are outright evil. Paragon seems to be the 'save' road with least risk on doing wrong.

[thegreateski]

AlexXIV wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

To get on the same page with everyone.

Do we consider people evil for doing evil things or for being human or not human?

Evil things. But right now the conversation is about whether or not Anderson is a traitor for handing Cerberus to the Turians on a silver platter.

According to the council in ME2 Cerberus are an enemy to the council. And the alliance is part of the council races. So the question is if Anderson is a traitor because he hands an enemy of the Council to agents of the council? Humanity may have to decide whether they want to be part of the council or go their own way. I mean if the Alliance loves Cerberus they can as well say so openly.

Generally the argument is that Anderson is a traitor for going to the Turians for help instead of the Alliance. Because of this the Turians are going to get all the benefits that come with looting the various Cerberus operations.

[Phaedon]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...
What other choice did he have? Maybe he should have done nothing. If Anderson knows how intertwined Cerberus and the Alliance are, then he has to know how important they are. Taking down Cerberus hurts the Alliance. Anderson purposely led a Turian squad (without Alliance knowledge) to take down an organization whose demise would be harmful to the Alliance. That is treasonous to me. I hope we get the chance to make Anderson answer for his crimes in ME3.

Right, so if he did that, Cerberus would continue to roam the galaxy, abducting, killing and experimenting. I don't see how this is morally good.

[Vaenier]

Phaedon wrote...

So? As long as they knew what Cerberus did, they are criminals themselves.

Shep is a criminal then, He should be shot on site. Actually, it is better to just blow the entire normandy out of the sky, They are all criminals then, Joker, the doctor, the engineering crew, all those people who left the Alliance for doing nothing. All your teammates are criminals too. Anyone you helped is a crinimal for accepting aid from Cerberus too... etc...

[lovgreno]

To the original post: That is certanly a risk we have to take if we want to keep the base and the hypoteticaly usefull stuff there. If we want to be sure the base can not create any more reapers and serve as a reaper base of operation destroying it is the only option.

Then again learning more about reapers are a very desirable thing so perhaps it is worth the risk? Perhaps it's not that dangerous after all considering that the Collectors seemed thoroughly beaten and it looks like like the reapers left? I would say yes if it wasn't Cerbederp occupying the base and the fact that it was those sneaky reapers who made it.

Modifié par lovgreno, 19 décembre 2010 - 12:39 .

[Phaedon]

Vaenier wrote...
Shep is a criminal then, He should be shot on site. Actually, it is better to just blow the entire normandy out of the sky, They are all criminals then, Joker, the doctor, the engineering crew, all those people who left the Alliance for doing nothing. All your teammates are criminals too. Anyone you helped is a crinimal for accepting aid from Cerberus too... etc...

It's not much different, yes, Shepard is a criminal if he doesn't do something with TIM in ME3.

[thegreateski]

Vaenier wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

So? As long as they knew what Cerberus did, they are criminals themselves.

Shep is a criminal then, He should be shot on site. Actually, it is better to just blow the entire normandy out of the sky, They are all criminals then, Joker, the doctor, the engineering crew, all those people who left the Alliance for doing nothing. All your teammates are criminals too. Anyone you helped is a crinimal for accepting aid from Cerberus too... etc...

If you'll recall . . . the Council was considering doing that at the begining of ME2. You got off on account of being a war hero and restricting yourself to the Terminus systems.

[Zulu_DFA]

thegreateski wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

To get on the same page with everyone.

Do we consider people evil for doing evil things or for being human or not human?

Evil things. But right now the conversation is about whether or not Anderson is a traitor for handing Cerberus to the Turians on a silver platter.

That thread is meant to discuss Anderson's treason:

http://social.biowar...5/index/4910947

By the way, has anyone noticed that this thread was gloriously derailed at the first reply, despite the fact that the OP brought up quite an interesting point?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 19 décembre 2010 - 12:44 .

[AlexXIV]

Phaedon wrote...

Vaenier wrote...
Shep is a criminal then, He should be shot on site. Actually, it is better to just blow the entire normandy out of the sky, They are all criminals then, Joker, the doctor, the engineering crew, all those people who left the Alliance for doing nothing. All your teammates are criminals too. Anyone you helped is a crinimal for accepting aid from Cerberus too... etc...

It's not much different, yes, Shepard is a criminal if he doesn't do something with TIM in ME3.

Shep is a Specter. You can go to the Council and be reinstated and they let you work with Cerberus. In that case Shep is on the safe side. And so are all who work with him. Though if you chose renegade and decide against the council and for Cerberus, then yes. Then Shep isn't better than other Cerberus.

[Phaedon]

AlexXIV wrote...
Shep is a Specter. You can go to the Council and be reinstated and they let you work with Cerberus. In that case Shep is on the safe side. And so are all who work with him. Though if you chose renegade and decide against the council and for Cerberus, then yes. Then Shep isn't better than other Cerberus.

That gives him legal freedom, not moral.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Phaedon wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...
a) TIM did not make Anderson commit treason (you realize Anderson does this stupid operation because he's p-whipped by some chick he hardly knows who wants to save a mercenary).
Yes, everyone hired by Cerberus is without a doubt a ruthless criminal. Horrible people like Dr. Chakwas, Joker, Ken, and Gabby.
c) Abducting Gillian would require her to have a home in the first place. If anything, Grayson is the one that abducts her. He launches her off with a random group of Quarians.

a) What treason, how is attacking xenophobic criminals that give your race a bad name treason! 
So? As long as they knew what Cerberus did, they are criminals themselves.
c) He abducts his...daughter. By some idiot who wants to exploit her like Archer, ok this is getting f***** up. 

a) Please provide evidence that Cerberus is xenophobic.
So, every member of any group that has ever had members who have committed crimes is a criminal? Well, you better get to slaughtering every member of every group ever.
c) The point I'm making about Gillian is that her "home" and "family" are hardly defined. Many people could "claim" her as their own (I know that sounds insensitive but it is an unconventional situation).

[Vaenier]

Here is a question: Why can we not give the base to someone else? Why is it TIM or bust? Is there a reason for railroading this decision between shooting yourself in the left leg or the right leg?

Private, Geth, Council, Alliance, Turian, Salarian, some corporation, etc. Anyone. Doesnt matter much, just why is the option not available?

[Sidac]

StarcloudSWG wrote...
 you cant' trust TIM!
 

Which is why I kept the base!

[thegreateski]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

To get on the same page with everyone.

Do we consider people evil for doing evil things or for being human or not human?

Evil things. But right now the conversation is about whether or not Anderson is a traitor for handing Cerberus to the Turians on a silver platter.

By the way, has anyone noticed that this thread has beed gloriously derailed, despite the fact that the OP broght up quite an interesting point?

Indeed I have. It's quite an interesting derailment.

[Praetor Knight]

AlexXIV wrote...

Renegade is sort of beyond good and evil. Some renegade actions are still somewhere on the good side, but there are also those who are outright evil. Paragon seems to be the 'save' road with least risk on doing wrong.

Exactly, how is any "renegade" option deserting a party or a cause, or being an apostate?

Also good and evil are separate ideals from my suggestion.

[AlexXIV]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

To get on the same page with everyone.

Do we consider people evil for doing evil things or for being human or not human?

Evil things. But right now the conversation is about whether or not Anderson is a traitor for handing Cerberus to the Turians on a silver platter.

This thread is meant to discuss Anderson's treason:

http://social.biowar...5/index/4910947

By the way, has anyone noticed that this thread has beed gloriously derailed, despite the fact that the OP broght up quite an interesting point?

You want to discuss whether the Reapers could take the base and whether TIM could defend/destroy it before that happens? There is not much to base an opinion on I fear.

[thegreateski]

Vaenier wrote...

Here is a question: Why can we not give the base to someone else? Why is it TIM or bust? Is there a reason for railroading this decision between shooting yourself in the left leg or the right leg?
Private, Geth, Council, Alliance, Turian, Salarian, some corporation, etc. Anyone. Doesnt matter much, just why is the option not available?

Because TIM is the closest at hand and will sieze the base forcefully if you try to give it to someone else.

[Xilizhra]

a) Please provide evidence that Cerberus is xenophobic.

Miranda says that it's infested with xenophobes.

B is irrelevant because the Lazarus cell people don't seem to be representative of every other Cerberus operative we've seen, and I can't testify to C as I haven't read the novels.

[Vaenier]

thegreateski wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Here is a question: Why can we not give the base to someone else? Why is it TIM or bust? Is there a reason for railroading this decision between shooting yourself in the left leg or the right leg?
Private, Geth, Council, Alliance, Turian, Salarian, some corporation, etc. Anyone. Doesnt matter much, just why is the option not available?

Because TIM is the closest at hand and will sieze the base forcefully if you try to give it to someone else.

I would like to see him try.

[Praetor Knight]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

By the way, has anyone noticed that this thread was gloriously derailed at the first reply, despite the fact that the OP brought up quite an interesting point?

It seems that Cerberus can do that to a thread

To OP, Destroying the base seems like the safer path to follow given what little is known about that base, tech and indoctrination, not to mention all the human goo in the tubes.