215 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

Phaedon wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
Shep is a Specter. You can go to the Council and be reinstated and they let you work with Cerberus. In that case Shep is on the safe side. And so are all who work with him. Though if you chose renegade and decide against the council and for Cerberus, then yes. Then Shep isn't better than other Cerberus.

That gives him legal freedom, not moral.

Well ideally that's the same. Most laws are based on some sort of moral concept.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 19 décembre 2010 - 12:50 .

[Vaenier]

AlexXIV wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

By the way, has anyone noticed that this thread has beed gloriously derailed, despite the fact that the OP broght up quite an interesting point?

You want to discuss whether the Reapers could take the base and whether TIM could defend/destroy it before that happens? There is not much to base an opinion on I fear.

Change the relay iff codes, mine field, indoctrination shielding and a defense inside the base, a bomb, and pushing the relay into a sun if all else fails. That about covers it.

Modifié par Vaenier, 19 décembre 2010 - 12:49 .

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Xilizhra wrote...

a) Please provide evidence that Cerberus is xenophobic.

Miranda says that it's infested with xenophobes.
B is irrelevant because the Lazarus cell people don't seem to be representative of every other Cerberus operative we've seen, and I can't testify to C as I haven't read the novels.

a) Having xenophobic members does not make the organization xenophobic.
The point is, we don't know about the members of Cerberus that the Turians killed. I was simply responding to a claim that all of the members of Cerberus are ruthless criminals.

[Phaedon]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...
a) Please provide evidence that Cerberus is xenophobic.
So, every member of any group that has ever had members who have committed crimes is a criminal? Well, you better get to slaughtering every member of every group ever.
c) The point I'm making about Gillian is that her "home" and "family" are hardly defined. Many people could "claim" her as their own (I know that sounds insensitive but it is an unconventional situation).

a) There are a lot of hints, both in the games and the books, especially Retribution from subtle ones like TIM's introduction to blunt ones like Kai Leng's endless rants about how poor humans are being discriminated.
If it's classified as a criminal organization, then yes, they are criminals. I don't support slaughtering Cerberus agents -I don't even support the death penalty-,  but if they are holding assault rifles, I think that it takes common sense to understand that an entry team doesn't have many options. And no, allowing them to continue their 'work' is even worse.
c) How could this justify TIM's intentions towards her? Grayson finally took his responsibilities as a father and found her a home, somewhere where she could be safe, since being with him was not. And The Vengeful Man tortures and experiments on him for doing this. TIM wants to use her as an object, a tool for murder without allowing her to have free will. 

[Zulu_DFA]

AlexXIV wrote...

You want to discuss whether the Reapers could take the base and whether TIM could defend/destroy it before that happens? There is not much to base an opinion on I fear.

So why did you respond to it in the first place? You wanna hate Cerberus? There are other threads for that, like this one:

http://social.biowar...5/index/1995545

[RiouHotaru]

philiposophy wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

luakel wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Name a single act of terrorism committed by Cerberus.

They financed the assassination of two Earth presidents. If assassination doesn't count as terrorism, they sabotaged a turian ship to blow it up.

Covert assassinations are not acts of terrorism. They are exactly the sort of things black ops organizations do. Terrorism is all about arousing fear in the public. Cerberus was just offing people they perceived as a threat to their interests. Unethical? Debate that if you will, but it is not terrorism.

They blew up that ship in order to take out a high ranking member of the Turian military IIRC.

Blacks ops work for a government. Cerberus is an illegal organisation to begin with. How could they possibly justify anything they do?

Cerberus was an Alliance black ops group until 2183.

Just because they were with the Alliance doesn't mean the Alliance knew everything they were doing.  It's potentially why Cerberus went rogue.  The Alliance found out Cerberus was performing experiments or operations well outside of the scope of what they were allowed to do or supposed to do, and tried to shut them down and disband them.  In response, they went rogue.

I love how everyone assumes because they were with the Alliance the Alliance had a hand in every single thing the group did.

[thegreateski]

Vaenier wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Here is a question: Why can we not give the base to someone else? Why is it TIM or bust? Is there a reason for railroading this decision between shooting yourself in the left leg or the right leg?
Private, Geth, Council, Alliance, Turian, Salarian, some corporation, etc. Anyone. Doesnt matter much, just why is the option not available?

Because TIM is the closest at hand and will sieze the base forcefully if you try to give it to someone else.

I would like to see him try.

Well. You would have to repulse a Cerberus attack by yourself. The Normandy would have to go get help eventually and at that time Cerberus would assault the base on foot. Failing all of this they will likely try to destroy the Collector base by flinging the mass relay(s) into a nearby sun or black hole.

[Phaedon]

AlexXIV wrote...
Well ideally that's the same. Most laws as based on some sort of moral concept.

Laws are created to put a limit on morals, so for example you can't say 'lol let's go torture childrenz it's good for humanity', but you can't be punished for your morals, but rather your actions. Legal justice is different than moral justice, call her nemesis if you will.

[xares23x]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

When the Reapers get close, the base could be destroyed (and destroyed properly) before they get there. BUT... it would have been after we discovered and studied its secrets.

Which requires an illusive man willing to destroy it. And discovering all secrets or even building another would probably take decades if not more. Anyway, if you destroy it when you still can you don't need to lay the fate of the world in the hands of terrorists.

Name a single act of terrorism committed by Cerberus.

they killed an alliance Admiral in the first game

http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Cerberus

please read this if your not going to play the game

Modifié par xares23x, 19 décembre 2010 - 12:55 .

[Vaenier]

thegreateski wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Here is a question: Why can we not give the base to someone else? Why is it TIM or bust? Is there a reason for railroading this decision between shooting yourself in the left leg or the right leg?
Private, Geth, Council, Alliance, Turian, Salarian, some corporation, etc. Anyone. Doesnt matter much, just why is the option not available?

Because TIM is the closest at hand and will sieze the base forcefully if you try to give it to someone else.

I would like to see him try.

Well. You would have to repulse a Cerberus attack by yourself. The Normandy would have to go get help eventually and at that time Cerberus would assault the base on foot. Failing all of this they will likely try to destroy the Collector base by flinging the mass relay(s) into a nearby sun or black hole.

lmao, that would be awsome. Cerberus destroying the base would be amazing. And we end up no worse off than paragons too.

[Praetor Knight]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Just because they were with the Alliance doesn't mean the Alliance knew everything they were doing.  It's potentially why Cerberus went rogue.  The Alliance found out Cerberus was performing experiments or operations well outside of the scope of what they were allowed to do or supposed to do, and tried to shut them down and disband them.  In response, they went rogue.

I love how everyone assumes because they were with the Alliance the Alliance had a hand in every single thing the group did.

Yeah, if Cerberus was once part of the Alliance, the 2157 manifesto seemed to start the gears of derailing the organization and then going completely rogue around the time when Kahoku's unit stumbles upon Banes and he starts investigating.

Cerberus Timeline maybe they went completely rogue sooner or were always private.

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 19 décembre 2010 - 12:57 .

[Xilizhra]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

a) Please provide evidence that Cerberus is xenophobic.

Miranda says that it's infested with xenophobes.
B is irrelevant because the Lazarus cell people don't seem to be representative of every other Cerberus operative we've seen, and I can't testify to C as I haven't read the novels.

a) Having xenophobic members does not make the organization xenophobic.
The point is, we don't know about the members of Cerberus that the Turians killed. I was simply responding to a claim that all of the members of Cerberus are ruthless criminals.

So, in A, what you really mean is that TIM's aims aren't xenophobic. Or at least aren't provably xenophobic.
As for B, no; this'd be bad for putting Shepard at her ease. It's true that we can't prove that all the other members of Cerberus are ruthless criminals, but we can' prove that TIM uses them and has no qualms.

[AlexXIV]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

You want to discuss whether the Reapers could take the base and whether TIM could defend/destroy it before that happens? There is not much to base an opinion on I fear.

So why did you respond to it in the first place? You wanna hate Cerberus? There are other threads for that, like this one:

http://social.biowar...5/index/1995545

Well you want to talk about the topic without discussing Cerberus?

My main concern is whether they are trustworthy. There is no way to figure out if Cerberus can defend the station, since even if there may ways to do it, we don't know if it actually can stop the Reapers. Maybe they have other IFFs or codes, some sort of backdoor which almost every good security program has. What do I know.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Phaedon wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...
a) Please provide evidence that Cerberus is xenophobic.
So, every member of any group that has ever had members who have committed crimes is a criminal? Well, you better get to slaughtering every member of every group ever.
c) The point I'm making about Gillian is that her "home" and "family" are hardly defined. Many people could "claim" her as their own (I know that sounds insensitive but it is an unconventional situation).

a) There are a lot of hints, both in the games and the books, especially Retribution from subtle ones like TIM's introduction to blunt ones like Kai Leng's endless rants about how poor humans are being discriminated.
If it's classified as a criminal organization, then yes, they are criminals. I don't support slaughtering Cerberus agents -I don't even support the death penalty-,  but if they are holding assault rifles, I think that it takes common sense to understand that an entry team doesn't have many options. And no, allowing them to continue their 'work' is even worse.
c) How could this justify TIM's intentions towards her? Grayson finally took his responsibilities as a father and found her a home, somewhere where she could be safe, since being with him was not. And The Vengeful Man tortures and experiments on him for doing this. TIM wants to use her as an object, a tool for murder without allowing her to have free will. 

a) Cerberus is simply pro-humanity. That does not necessitate that they are anti-alien.
So who is the moral authority that gets to classify groups as "criminal"?
c) Honestly, the fact that TIM can make unemotional decisions about people is what makes him great. Gillian could hold the key to unlocking biotic potential in humans. Do you realize how many human lives that could save in future wars? In my opinion, one girl's freedom is not worth thousands of human lives. Call me a monster but I find this to be the best way to approach morality.

[Xilizhra]

So who is the moral authority that gets to classify groups as "criminal"?

In this case, I think it's Alliance and Citadel law.

c) Honestly, the fact that TIM can make unemotional decisions about people is what makes him great. Gillian could hold the key to unlocking biotic potential in humans. Do you realize how many human lives that could save in future wars? In my opinion, one girl's freedom is not worth thousands of human lives. Call me a monster but I find this to be the best way to approach morality.

It might. It might not. There might be ways to do this that are less torturous, and Cerberus simply doesn't care. I don't believe that always taking the fastest and easiest route to power is moral.

[AlexXIV]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...
a) Please provide evidence that Cerberus is xenophobic.
So, every member of any group that has ever had members who have committed crimes is a criminal? Well, you better get to slaughtering every member of every group ever.
c) The point I'm making about Gillian is that her "home" and "family" are hardly defined. Many people could "claim" her as their own (I know that sounds insensitive but it is an unconventional situation).

a) There are a lot of hints, both in the games and the books, especially Retribution from subtle ones like TIM's introduction to blunt ones like Kai Leng's endless rants about how poor humans are being discriminated.
If it's classified as a criminal organization, then yes, they are criminals. I don't support slaughtering Cerberus agents -I don't even support the death penalty-,  but if they are holding assault rifles, I think that it takes common sense to understand that an entry team doesn't have many options. And no, allowing them to continue their 'work' is even worse.
c) How could this justify TIM's intentions towards her? Grayson finally took his responsibilities as a father and found her a home, somewhere where she could be safe, since being with him was not. And The Vengeful Man tortures and experiments on him for doing this. TIM wants to use her as an object, a tool for murder without allowing her to have free will. 

a) Cerberus is simply pro-humanity. That does not necessitate that they are anti-alien.
So who is the moral authority that gets to classify groups as "criminal"?
c) Honestly, the fact that TIM can make unemotional decisions about people is what makes him great. Gillian could hold the key to unlocking biotic potential in humans. Do you realize how many human lives that could save in future wars? In my opinion, one girl's freedom is not worth thousands of human lives. Call me a monster but I find this to be the best way to approach morality.

How comes that his ability to make unemotional decisions about people is what makes TIM great, and that the same attribute of Reapers doesn't make them great too? Or do you also admire this trait in the Reapers?

[Vaenier]

AlexXIV wrote...

How comes that his ability to make unemotional decisions about people is what makes TIM great, and that the same attribute of Reapers doesn't make them great too? Or do you also admire this trait in the Reapers?

I would, but they dont have that attribute.

They are attacking earth instead of the citadel. They have shown even more incompitance than cerberus in their planning. they let pride beat them. they have far too many emotions for my taste.

[Zulu_DFA]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Just because they were with the Alliance doesn't mean the Alliance knew everything they were doing.  It's potentially why Cerberus went rogue.

Cerberus didn't went rogue. The Alliance did, in 2157. Then the Alliance set up Cerberus to do their dirty work, and has never ever cared since how that dirty work was getting done.

RiouHotaru wrote...

The Alliance found out Cerberus was performing experiments or operations well outside of the scope of what they were allowed to do or supposed to do, and tried to shut them down and disband them.

Seriously? When? Source?

RiouHotaru wrote...
In response, they went rogue.

I don't understand. So did Cerberus go rogue because the Alliance didn't know what they were doing, or because the Aliance knew what they were doing?

RiouHotaru wrote...
I love how everyone assumes because they were with the Alliance the Alliance had a hand in every single thing the group did.

Lol. The Alliance hadn't a hand there (it were just crooked individuals, corrupted officials, evil Cerberus infiltrators), and that's the whole point. But Cerberus was blessed by the Alliance to advance the Human interests by ANY means. But it was very hush-hush.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 19 décembre 2010 - 01:05 .

[Phaedon]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...
a) Cerberus is simply pro-humanity. That does not necessitate that they are anti-alien.
So who is the moral authority that gets to classify groups as "criminal"?
c) Honestly, the fact that TIM can make unemotional decisions about people is what makes him great. Gillian could hold the key to unlocking biotic potential in humans. Do you realize how many human lives that could save in future wars? In my opinion, one girl's freedom is not worth thousands of human lives. Call me a monster but I find this to be the best way to approach morality.

a) Okay, let's leave that here.
My sanity. If she wants to be kept alive, I need to keep believing that people can't be considering child abducters and torturers, political assasins and mass murderers as morally good. 
c) *sigh* Why do I get the feeling that if TIM starts implanting, impaling and torturing people once he captures the base, you will call him morally good. The ends don't justify the means. I am really trying not to bring up sensitive historical personalities from the past now, but I am seriously tempted.

[AlexXIV]

Vaenier wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

How comes that his ability to make unemotional decisions about people is what makes TIM great, and that the same attribute of Reapers doesn't make them great too? Or do you also admire this trait in the Reapers?

I would, but they dont have that attribute.

They are attacking earth instead of the citadel. They have shown even more incompitance than cerberus in their planning. they let pride beat them. they have far too many emotions for my taste.

Well we don't know why. And TIM is just calm as long as things go well. Destroy his base and he will not be happy.

[Dean_the_Young]

RiouHotaru wrote...
Just because they were with the Alliance doesn't mean the Alliance knew everything they were doing.  It's potentially why Cerberus went rogue.  The Alliance found out Cerberus was performing experiments or operations well outside of the scope of what they were allowed to do or supposed to do, and tried to shut them down and disband them.  In response, they went rogue.

I love how everyone assumes because they were with the Alliance the Alliance had a hand in every single thing the group did.

I'm always curious where you get this argument from, because it certainly wasn't given in ME1. Kohaku's relevations about Cerberus never included any attempt by the Alliance to stop or shut down Cerberus; in fact, they break was presented as being a surprise on Cerberu's initiative, not as a reaction,

[Asheer_Khan]

They are attacking earth instead of the citadel.

Objection !



Unproven supposition based on about 1 minute long trailer which can't be consider as valuable source of information about what Reapers doing in London in first place.

[Vaenier]

AlexXIV wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

How comes that his ability to make unemotional decisions about people is what makes TIM great, and that the same attribute of Reapers doesn't make them great too? Or do you also admire this trait in the Reapers?

I would, but they dont have that attribute.

They are attacking earth instead of the citadel. They have shown even more incompitance than cerberus in their planning. they let pride beat them. they have far too many emotions for my taste.

Well we don't know why. And TIM is just calm as long as things go well. Destroy his base and he will not be happy.

Ya, I dont believe they are meant to be cold machines that exist just to feed on organics. They dont work for that role.

Tim aint perfect either but he is better at it then the Reapers. And I am tired of capitalising all 3 letters, he deserves only the first letter capitalised.

[Dean_the_Young]

Vaenier wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

How comes that his ability to make unemotional decisions about people is what makes TIM great, and that the same attribute of Reapers doesn't make them great too? Or do you also admire this trait in the Reapers?

I would, but they dont have that attribute.

They are attacking earth instead of the citadel. They have shown even more incompitance than cerberus in their planning. they let pride beat them. they have far too many emotions for my taste.

There are in-game mitigating possibilities for why the Citadel isn't a game-breaking strategic location in this cycle. There is also no reason to believe the Reapers haven't (tried) to take the Citadel in the early ME3. 

Given what little the ME3 trailer actually gave us about the situation, and how far removed ME teaser trailers have been from the actual content of the Mass Effect games, it's a year too early to claim to know what or why the Reapers are acting as they are, let alone judge their competences.

[AlexXIV]

Vaenier wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

How comes that his ability to make unemotional decisions about people is what makes TIM great, and that the same attribute of Reapers doesn't make them great too? Or do you also admire this trait in the Reapers?

I would, but they dont have that attribute.

They are attacking earth instead of the citadel. They have shown even more incompitance than cerberus in their planning. they let pride beat them. they have far too many emotions for my taste.

Well we don't know why. And TIM is just calm as long as things go well. Destroy his base and he will not be happy.

Ya, I dont believe they are meant to be cold machines that exist just to feed on organics. They dont work for that role.

Tim aint perfect either but he is better at it then the Reapers. And I am tired of capitalising all 3 letters, he deserves only the first letter capitalised.

Heh you don't have to capitalize anything if you asked just me.

Anyway I like this quote:Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

It basically means to me even while doing what you have to do you should never forget why you fight monsters and what makes the difference between you and the monsters. That's the paragon path for me.