215 réponses à ce sujet

[Vaenier]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

How comes that his ability to make unemotional decisions about people is what makes TIM great, and that the same attribute of Reapers doesn't make them great too? Or do you also admire this trait in the Reapers?

I would, but they dont have that attribute.

They are attacking earth instead of the citadel. They have shown even more incompitance than cerberus in their planning. they let pride beat them. they have far too many emotions for my taste.

There are in-game mitigating possibilities for why the Citadel isn't a game-breaking strategic location in this cycle. There is also no reason to believe the Reapers haven't (tried) to take the Citadel in the early ME3. 

Given what little the ME3 trailer actually gave us about the situation, and how far removed ME teaser trailers have been from the actual content of the Mass Effect games, it's a year too early to claim to know what or why the Reapers are acting as they are, let alone judge their competences.

They do not have a backup relay. They believed their original relay would be infailable. they were trapped by their pride.

also, i already built a better plan for reproduction based on cloning. if their goal was simply growth, they are failures. they are doing something greater, something that directly requires species to evolve on their own. maybe acension. maybe some random plot thing. dont know. just know what they aint doing because if they were doing it, they are the most incompitant villans ever.

[Dave of Canada]

Really now?

Even if the Reapers took over the Base again, what would it accomplish? They can't really do anything with it until the war is over, considering they'd have to actively be transporting millions of people after enslaving them and then building a Reaper while fighting the war. The base holds nothing of value for the Reapers as it's mostly just knowledge or Collector weaponry.

In the few years it takes them to arrive, I'm sure we'd have what we were searching for.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 19 décembre 2010 - 01:22 .

[StarcloudSWG]

The Reaper's primary goal is to create another Reaper. Perhaps two, if they find another race that has the numbers and genetic flexibility.

Combine that with arrogance and the feeling that they are the supreme force in the galaxy, and it's no wonder they go for their primary goal first: Earth.

That said, I'm somewhat disappointed. My point was that ultimately, regardless of your belief in Cerberus good OR evil, that it could be that keeping the base is a bad decision from a completely different, no Cerberus involvement needed, point of view.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

The Reaper's primary goal is to create another Reaper. Perhaps two, if they find another race that has the numbers and genetic flexibility.
Combine that with arrogance and the feeling that they are the supreme force in the galaxy, and it's no wonder they go for their primary goal first: Earth.
That said, I'm somewhat disappointed. My point was that ultimately, regardless of your belief in Cerberus good OR evil, that it could be that keeping the base is a bad decision from a completely different, no Cerberus involvement needed, point of view.

I disagree that the Reaper's primary goal is to create another Reaper. I believe that goal is secondary to not allowing organic life and organic technology in the milky way to evolve to a point where they could be a threat to the Reaper's existence.

[AlexXIV]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

The Reaper's primary goal is to create another Reaper. Perhaps two, if they find another race that has the numbers and genetic flexibility.
Combine that with arrogance and the feeling that they are the supreme force in the galaxy, and it's no wonder they go for their primary goal first: Earth.
That said, I'm somewhat disappointed. My point was that ultimately, regardless of your belief in Cerberus good OR evil, that it could be that keeping the base is a bad decision from a completely different, no Cerberus involvement needed, point of view.

Well after destroying the base and you talk with Legion he hints on the fact that using Reaper technology may lead to develop in a certain way. Maybe the Reapers were once humans who processed their own race to become some sort of 'immortals' and keeping the base would lead humanity in their very footsteps. And some day some powerful humans would decide that it is worth to sacrifice millions of humans for their own eternal life. Not exactly something that would surprise me.

[Dean_the_Young]

Vaenier wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

How comes that his ability to make unemotional decisions about people is what makes TIM great, and that the same attribute of Reapers doesn't make them great too? Or do you also admire this trait in the Reapers?

I would, but they dont have that attribute.

They are attacking earth instead of the citadel. They have shown even more incompitance than cerberus in their planning. they let pride beat them. they have far too many emotions for my taste.

There are in-game mitigating possibilities for why the Citadel isn't a game-breaking strategic location in this cycle. There is also no reason to believe the Reapers haven't (tried) to take the Citadel in the early ME3. 

Given what little the ME3 trailer actually gave us about the situation, and how far removed ME teaser trailers have been from the actual content of the Mass Effect games, it's a year too early to claim to know what or why the Reapers are acting as they are, let alone judge their competences.

They do not have a backup relay. They believed their original relay would be infailable. they were trapped by their pride.

The fact that Reapers will be over Earth in a matter of years rather belies that they were 'trapped'.

also, i already built a better plan for reproduction based on cloning. if their goal was simply growth, they are failures. they are doing something greater, something that directly requires species to evolve on their own. maybe acension. maybe some random plot thing. dont know. just know what they aint doing because if they were doing it, they are the most incompitant villans ever.

It's rather clear from a number of factors that the Reapers goals are not simply growth, ergo cloning is not automatically a 'better' plan if it does not meet the Reapers desires.


Incompitence and illogical ideology are two separate issues: while I hate to resort to the Cold War and WW2, those two conflicts proved that even illogical and unsupportable ideologies can be carred out in operationally brilliant fashions. We've yet to see in-universe reasoning that the Reapers intents are illogical: while the mass effect universe does engage in unscientific conceits (Lazarus revival, genetics in general), the in-universe consistency is not as in question.

[Vaenier]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

That said, I'm somewhat disappointed. My point was that ultimately, regardless of your belief in Cerberus good OR evil, that it could be that keeping the base is a bad decision from a completely different, no Cerberus involvement needed, point of view.

I thought my plan of changing the iff codes, laying a mine field, setting up defenses inside the base, setting up an unhackable bomb to collapse the space around the base, and the fallback of pushing the relay into the sun would be safe enough of perventing any issues about possible loss to enemies.

Maybe i should add a blockade, or more bombs...

Besides, it wouldnt help them even if they captured it. One more reaper in a fleet of hundreads...

[thegreateski]

There are no downsides to keeping the base. Once the Reapers are here they're going to be too busy reaping to make a new Reaper. Plus, the creation of a new Reaper would take several years, if not decades.



Not even the theory that Cerberus might gain superior tech and use that to elevate Humans over other races holds water because everybody is going to have access to Reaper tech by the time that ME3 is over.



What it comes down to is whether or not you think TIM will use the base to make a Human Reaper AFTER the Reaper army is defeated.



. . . if it's defeated.



*Gulp*

[Dave of Canada]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

The Reaper's primary goal is to create another Reaper. Perhaps two, if they find another race that has the numbers and genetic flexibility.

But you need eleventy bajillion people to make Reapers, they won't suddenly disappear when they are fighting tooth and nail against the Reapers. I'm sure they'll pick some people up and start the process but no where will they be near completion until the war is over, it took two years+ for the Collectors to build maybe 1/4 of a Reaper.

Without their mindslaves (Collectors) to assist them, they'd need to make more brainwashed slaves assisting them in building the next Reaper (I doubt the Reapers work well as factory workers). So they would require a lot of time and effort to build up a force large enough to start working on one, while also gathering the millions of people necessary.

The base itself has no purpose to the Reapers in the war itself.

[Dean_the_Young]

Why assume the IFF codes can be changed at all, let alone that we have the ability (or means) to do so? It's not even codes at all, it's an actual device.



The base's mass effect field is more to protect itself than the area around it. Whether you destroy the base or not, the Shadow Broker states that he could use the Normandy to do salvage operations. Plus, the Reapers also sort of have strong mass effect fields of their own.

[Da_Lion_Man]

In the end, the decision probably won't even matter.

[Vaenier]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

How comes that his ability to make unemotional decisions about people is what makes TIM great, and that the same attribute of Reapers doesn't make them great too? Or do you also admire this trait in the Reapers?

I would, but they dont have that attribute.

They are attacking earth instead of the citadel. They have shown even more incompitance than cerberus in their planning. they let pride beat them. they have far too many emotions for my taste.

There are in-game mitigating possibilities for why the Citadel isn't a game-breaking strategic location in this cycle. There is also no reason to believe the Reapers haven't (tried) to take the Citadel in the early ME3. 

Given what little the ME3 trailer actually gave us about the situation, and how far removed ME teaser trailers have been from the actual content of the Mass Effect games, it's a year too early to claim to know what or why the Reapers are acting as they are, let alone judge their competences.

They do not have a backup relay. They believed their original relay would be infailable. they were trapped by their pride.

The fact that Reapers will be over Earth in a matter of years rather belies that they were 'trapped'.

also, i already built a better plan for reproduction based on cloning. if their goal was simply growth, they are failures. they are doing something greater, something that directly requires species to evolve on their own. maybe acension. maybe some random plot thing. dont know. just know what they aint doing because if they were doing it, they are the most incompitant villans ever.

It's rather clear from a number of factors that the Reapers goals are not simply growth, ergo cloning is not automatically a 'better' plan if it does not meet the Reapers desires.


Incompitence and illogical ideology are two separate issues: while I hate to resort to the Cold War and WW2, those two conflicts proved that even illogical and unsupportable ideologies can be carred out in operationally brilliant fashions. We've yet to see in-universe reasoning that the Reapers intents are illogical: while the mass effect universe does engage in unscientific conceits (Lazarus revival, genetics in general), the in-universe consistency is not as in question.

As I said, I do not know what they are doing, I just know what they are not doing.

Also, why send the collector ship out on its own? It got taken out by a frigate. It was obviously not being very discreet, and it could never have finished that Reaper without getting the Alliance involved. It just seemed like such a waste, the Reapers handed us that base on a silver platter...

****...

[Vaenier]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Why assume the IFF codes can be changed at all, let alone that we have the ability (or means) to do so? It's not even codes at all, it's an actual device.

The base's mass effect field is more to protect itself than the area around it. Whether you destroy the base or not, the Shadow Broker states that he could use the Normandy to do salvage operations. Plus, the Reapers also sort of have strong mass effect fields of their own.

Worst case senario: base is destroyed, Reapers suffer no casualties. It is unfortunite, but atleast you had time to grab some tech.

[AlexXIV]

Vaenier wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

How comes that his ability to make unemotional decisions about people is what makes TIM great, and that the same attribute of Reapers doesn't make them great too? Or do you also admire this trait in the Reapers?

I would, but they dont have that attribute.

They are attacking earth instead of the citadel. They have shown even more incompitance than cerberus in their planning. they let pride beat them. they have far too many emotions for my taste.

There are in-game mitigating possibilities for why the Citadel isn't a game-breaking strategic location in this cycle. There is also no reason to believe the Reapers haven't (tried) to take the Citadel in the early ME3. 

Given what little the ME3 trailer actually gave us about the situation, and how far removed ME teaser trailers have been from the actual content of the Mass Effect games, it's a year too early to claim to know what or why the Reapers are acting as they are, let alone judge their competences.

They do not have a backup relay. They believed their original relay would be infailable. they were trapped by their pride.

The fact that Reapers will be over Earth in a matter of years rather belies that they were 'trapped'.

also, i already built a better plan for reproduction based on cloning. if their goal was simply growth, they are failures. they are doing something greater, something that directly requires species to evolve on their own. maybe acension. maybe some random plot thing. dont know. just know what they aint doing because if they were doing it, they are the most incompitant villans ever.

It's rather clear from a number of factors that the Reapers goals are not simply growth, ergo cloning is not automatically a 'better' plan if it does not meet the Reapers desires.


Incompitence and illogical ideology are two separate issues: while I hate to resort to the Cold War and WW2, those two conflicts proved that even illogical and unsupportable ideologies can be carred out in operationally brilliant fashions. We've yet to see in-universe reasoning that the Reapers intents are illogical: while the mass effect universe does engage in unscientific conceits (Lazarus revival, genetics in general), the in-universe consistency is not as in question.

As I said, I do not know what they are doing, I just know what they are not doing.

Also, why send the collector ship out on its own? It got taken out by a frigate. It was obviously not being very discreet, and it could never have finished that Reaper without getting the Alliance involved. It just seemed like such a waste, the Reapers handed us that base on a silver platter...

****...

Yeah they would have had to hit earth which probably could have defended against a single collector ship. Even the cannons on the colony (forgot name) were almost enough to blow it up.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Vaenier wrote...
As I said, I do not know what they are doing, I just know what they are not doing.[/quote[If you don't know what someone's even trying to do, you have few grounds to say that they're doing it badly.
[quote]
Also, why send the collector ship out on its own? It got taken out by a frigate. It was obviously not being very discreet, and it could never have finished that Reaper without getting the Alliance involved. It just seemed like such a waste, the Reapers handed us that base on a silver platter...

****...
[/quote]I'm afraid I don't see how this actually responds to something I posted.

If you're asking why they launched the Cruiser during the Suicide Mission to try and defend against the Normandy, the fact that the Normandy was launching an attack at the base on the wrong side of the Omega Relay had something to do with it, and that the Collector Cruiser was all that they had on hand.

The Collector Cruiser wouldn't have needed to attack Earth and the Alliance on its own, though: the Heretic Virus would have provided an entire armada of support craft by the time it really needed escorts and protecting.

[Dean_the_Young]

Vaenier wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Why assume the IFF codes can be changed at all, let alone that we have the ability (or means) to do so? It's not even codes at all, it's an actual device.

The base's mass effect field is more to protect itself than the area around it. Whether you destroy the base or not, the Shadow Broker states that he could use the Normandy to do salvage operations. Plus, the Reapers also sort of have strong mass effect fields of their own.

Worst case senario: base is destroyed, Reapers suffer no casualties. It is unfortunite, but atleast you had time to grab some tech.

Completely, utterly true.

The first and simplest defense to 'the Reapers will caputre it!!1!1!' should always be 'uh, and if we blow it up before they can seize it?'

[thegreateski]

Vaenier wrote...
As I said, I do not know what they are doing, I just know what they are not doing.

Also, why send the collector ship out on its own? It got taken out by a frigate. It was obviously not being very discreet, and it could never have finished that Reaper without getting the Alliance involved. It just seemed like such a waste, the Reapers handed us that base on a silver platter...

****...

It was pretty damn stupid of them.

But they probably weren't expecting Shepard to "come back from the dead" or the Alliance to do anything about their harvesting before the Reapers show up to lay waste to everyone.

Modifié par thegreateski, 19 décembre 2010 - 01:38 .

[V-rex]

Da_Lion_Man wrote...

In the end, the decision probably won't even matter.

This... tragically.

I mean come on, the save/kill the Council was hyped up as this huge galaxy changing story bending decision that would drastically alter the effect of the over all canon. But then in the actual sequel, due to the fact that it would be difficult to have two different stories, the Council are reduced to one single cameo and the occassional mention and regardless of whether it's the regular council or a human run council the story still plays out the same.

Same reasons why characters who could be dead will only have one single cameo.

Kind of tragic really, all this stuff about choice and freedom to play the game however you want it actually ends up limiting the potential for story telling in some respects.

[AdmiralCheez]

Come on, guys, you KNOW that ME3's outcome isn't going to rely on one decision in the game before it.

[AlexXIV]

AdmiralCheez wrote...


Come on, guys, you KNOW that ME3's outcome isn't going to rely on one decision in the game before it.

I don't know that.

[Dave of Canada]

V-rex wrote...

Kind of tragic really, all this stuff about choice and freedom to play the game however you want it actually ends up limiting the potential for story telling in some respects.

I do think it'll play more of a role in ME3, they couldn't have involved them greatly in ME2 because then it would've hurt their chances in ME3 to have equally / bigger roles. Keeping them sidelined for the moment allows them to involve themselves more and the choices in ME1 obviously matter if they had to create a comic that basically allows for the choices to happen.

[Dave of Canada]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Come on, guys, you KNOW that ME3's outcome isn't going to rely on one decision in the game before it.

Yes, though that's metagaming at it's finest.

[thegreateski]

So we've come to the conclusion that the Collector base isn't even really that important?

Modifié par thegreateski, 19 décembre 2010 - 01:42 .

[Vaenier]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Also, why send the collector ship out on its own? It got taken out by a frigate. It was obviously not being very discreet, and it could never have finished that Reaper without getting the Alliance involved. It just seemed like such a waste, the Reapers handed us that base on a silver platter...

****...

I'm afraid I don't see how this actually responds to something I posted.

If you're asking why they launched the Cruiser during the Suicide Mission to try and defend against the Normandy, the fact that the Normandy was launching an attack at the base on the wrong side of the Omega Relay had something to do with it, and that the Collector Cruiser was all that they had on hand.

The Collector Cruiser wouldn't have needed to attack Earth and the Alliance on its own, though: the Heretic Virus would have provided an entire armada of support craft by the time it really needed escorts and protecting.

It was in reference to their incompetince.

And yet the heretics managed to throw a wrench into that plan too. A single Geth platform managed to get help and stop the virus. If that failed, the Geth would just roll in with their fleet and that station would be in little tiny pieces. Stationary targets are super easy to destroy in space.

[Krimson_Wolf]

Normally i would agree with most of the thoughts here but after seeing the ME3 trailer. I'm starting to think that keeping the Collector base is not such a bad idea. I just wish you could give it to the Council instead of Cerberus.