133 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Sir JK wrote...

Do note that it took a year, the destruction of Montsimmard, the burning of at least one Chantry (and impalement of the sisters and mothers within) and the siege of Val Royeux before a exalted march was declared on the Dales. Then it took another 10 years and the destruction of Val Royeux before victory was declared.
That was one horrid war and by the sound of it the Dalish almost destroyed Orlais (and since the Andrastian Chantry was little more than two centuries old at the time, would probably have destroyed it as well).

And if the Chantry sent in templars to force the elves to convert, and this started the war, I don't see what the issue is. Should the Dalish have allowed an enemy to thrive, especially if they were attacked first? There's obviously no way to know the truth, but if the Dalish were retaliating against an attack made by Orlais, then all they were doing was defending themselves against an aggressor.

Sir JK wrote...

Indeed. The point is that First Enchanter could do that. That says one or two things.
But yes, Anaeirin did suffer the other side of the coin. But at least the coin have two sides.
And Rylock appears to have gone rogue as far as I can gather.

But even the First Enchanter has limits, as is made clear by the Magi Origin. He can't do anything to stop Jowan's Rite of Tranquility. And an insane Cullen can rule the Circle in fear in one of the epilogues of DA:O.

Sir JK wrote...
But the point is: they are allowed it. Sure, it takes some effort. But the chance is there for them to reach. It is not an optimal situation no. But not a hopeless one either. It shows that both Chantry and Templars can be reasonable.

Except the war hero Wilheim helped save Ferelden from its occupation from Orlais, and by extension the Chantry, so it's a unique issue. Most likely the result of a royal boon. It's why he was allowed to have a wife and a family when Gaider has made it clear that mages aren't permitted to raise their children in the Circle, and the only exception is Grey Warden mages.

And Wynne is given permission to leave, but all of the Circles are run differently (which is why marriage is only allowed for some of them) so it's not always a sure bet that a Senior Enchanter will have permission to leave the Circle Tower. I'd wager that an insane Knight-Commander Cullen isn't going to permit Senior Enchanters to leave the Circle for any reason.

Sir JK wrote...

That mages set their policy in Cumberland means that the future of mages is to an extent under the control of mages. They don't have full rights to govern themselves, but they have some power in the regard. And while they cannot separate themselves from the Chantry without declaring a revolution/war they might be able to decide more day to day matters. Such as for instance: what is and what is not sufficient evidence for a circle mage to be condemned as a maleficar.

Except since Cullen can rule the Circle of Ferelden in fear, I'm going to take a guess that the judgements that are made in those Cumberland meetings are limited by what the Knight-Commander will allow.

Sir JK wrote...
No, I just want you to point me in the right direction so I myself can see that Tranquil cannot refuse orders

I inferred it from Owain's statement that he can't go against the Circle's wishes, and how DA:O makes it clear that the tranquil basically generate money for the Circle by crafting magical items.

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...
And if the Chantry sent in templars to force the elves to convert, and this started the war, I don't see what the issue is. Should the Dalish have allowed an enemy to thrive, especially if they were attacked first? There's obviously no way to know the truth, but if the Dalish were retaliating against an attack made by Orlais, then all they were doing was defending themselves against an aggressor.

And the Orlesians did not declare war until Red Crossing was destroyed and every inhabitant killed. So the Orlesians probably also considered themselves to be defending against an agressor.

My theory is that the conflict was started by missionaries being thrown out by Emerald Knights at swordpoint and/being beaten. Then they returned with templars (because in their eyes they were attacked) and this time it turned into conflict. The Dalish then responded by attacking Red Crossing and this gave all those Orlesians that were still angry about Montsimmard an excuse to declare war on "those heathen knife-ears". This is when the Dalish decided to attack with full merciless force and almost destroyed their enemy,

Simply put: I think they goaded each others into the fight. That both sides are just as guilty for what happened and that the Dalish have themselves as much to blame for the loss of the Dales as Orlais/the Chantry.
That's my opinion of course.

But let's face it. Sooner or later the Dales would have to go to war if they wanted to recover their immortality because in time the Dales had been too small for their population. Their goal to isolate themselves from humanity was a fools errand and they had no right to sacrefice anyone to recover it.
What happened to the Dalish was terrible and it's sad they almost lost their culture. But innocent victims, they are not.

But even the First Enchanter has limits, as is made clear by the Magi Origin. He can't do anything to stop Jowan's Rite of Tranquility. And an insane Cullen can rule the Circle in fear in one of the epilogues of DA:O.

As I think I said to you six months ago: What makes you think Irving wants to stop Jowan's tranquilisation?
But yes, an insane Cullen can indeed rule the circle. We don't know how that comes to be. Maybe he gets promoted by merit of seniority because all more capable templars have been killed by mages? Maybe they genuinely agree with him? Maybe he hides it really well until he becomes knight-commander? Who knows?
Unless we know more we cannot say if that is significant or not.

But yes. Cullen, post-tower, is a perfect example of the worst group of templars. It's understandable but saddening that he turned out that way. But I agree... that man should not be put in command of anything. In fact... he should be sent to a Chantry as far away from the tower as possible. Would probably be better for his mental health too.
Pity though... before the crisis he was a very promising Templars. One of the better I'd say. Wouldn't you agree?

Sir JK wrote...
Except the war hero Wilheim helped save Ferelden from its occupation from Orlais, and by extension the Chantry, so it's a unique issue. Most likely the result of a royal boon. It's why he was allowed to have a wife and a family when Gaider has made it clear that mages aren't permitted to raise their children in the Circle, and the only exception is Grey Warden mages.
And Wynne is given permission to leave, but all of the Circles are run differently (which is why marriage is only allowed for some of them) so it's not always a sure bet that a Senior Enchanter will have permission to leave the Circle Tower. I'd wager that an insane Knight-Commander Cullen isn't going to permit Senior Enchanters to leave the Circle for any reason.

Yes, yes. It was specific circumstances that depended on a lot of factors and the people present. But they still happened. And noone kicked up a fuss about it. So mages being given... okay... earning more freedom and rights is not unheard of.There is room for the Chantry treating mages like real people.

Except since Cullen can rule the Circle of Ferelden in fear, I'm going to take a guess that the judgements that are made in those Cumberland meetings are limited by what the Knight-Commander will allow.

Heh, yes. Probably. Wouldn't be surprised if there's a revered mother or two present as well. Probably have a veto too. But it's still a meeting by mages for mages.
Also, to your Cullen I raise Hadley in Witch Hunt. Who supposedly genuinel asks Finn to take care of himself

I inferred it from Owain's statement that he can't go against the Circle's wishes, and how DA:O makes it clear that the tranquil basically generate money for the Circle by crafting magical items.

That might be a "cannot go against the wishes of X" where x is anyone one feel belonging too/cares for. Sort of that he cannot go against the circle' wishes out of a sense of duty and a wish to still belong there.
You might be right though.
Also, you hit the nail there in your wording. "... generate money for the circle..." emphasis mine. Is it possible that money goes to the chantry? Of course. But I have not seen any indication that it does. If you have please enlighten me.

[Warlokki]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Warlokki wrote...

Qunari. I cannot stand the Chantry in any way. Qunari are meritocratic, something i like.
Their ways will need to be changed a bit though, no more mage leashing (unless a mage deserves that, good alternative for other punisments, considerably more useful for the society) and both sexes should be able to serve as warriors or whatever castes there are.

Changing the Qunari's ways... Damn, you got your work cut out for you. Lol

Well... Think it this way: If you have enough merit, you can get a high position, no? Oh wait, are those limited to the qunari themselves? If any race can get a high position, wouldn't it be a simple (eeh, well maybe not so simple and definetly not fast, probably) matter to change their mind about a few things? Letting women to be warriors is probably easier than letting magi go free though.

EDIT gah, no free love... err... doh. Needs a lot changing then.

Modifié par Warlokki, 07 janvier 2011 - 11:55 .

[thegreateski]

The Chantry. Despite all their faults they're still better then the Qunari and the Tevinter Chantry.

[LobselVith8]

Sir JK wrote...

And the Orlesians did not declare war until Red Crossing was destroyed and every inhabitant killed. So the Orlesians probably also considered themselves to be defending against an agressor.

Orlais claims that the attack on Red Crossing was the start of the war, but we have no way of knowing if that's true or not. The attack on Red Crossing could have been provoked by a prior attack, which fits with the Dalish saying that templars were sent into the Dales to force conversion to the Chantry.

Sir JK wrote...

But let's face it. Sooner or later the Dales would have to go to war if they wanted to recover their immortality because in time the Dales had been too small for their population. Their goal to isolate themselves from humanity was a fools errand and they had no right to sacrefice anyone to recover it.
What happened to the Dalish was terrible and it's sad they almost lost their culture. But innocent victims, they are not.

According to their history, they were victims, but we have no way of knowing whether Orlais, the Dalish, or the scholars are correct for the reason of the war between the Dales and Orlais. All we can do is speculate.

Sir JK wrote...

As I think I said to you six months ago: What makes you think Irving wants to stop Jowan's tranquilisation?

The fact that Irving said he would go about it differently in the Magi Origin, but can't because of Knight-Commander Greagoir.

Sir JK wrote...

But yes, an insane Cullen can indeed rule the circle. We don't know how that comes to be. Maybe he gets promoted by merit of seniority because all more capable templars have been killed by mages? Maybe they genuinely agree with him? Maybe he hides it really well until he becomes knight-commander? Who knows?
Unless we know more we cannot say if that is significant or not.

Except we don't need to know how he got the position. Regardless, he's placed in charge of the Circle of Ferelden, and is the highest authority at the Circle Tower. He's an anti-mage templar who presides over men, women, and children. Considering that he rules the Circle of Ferelden in fear, that speaks volumes for how powerless the mages really are against the templars.

Sir JK wrote...

But yes. Cullen, post-tower, is a perfect example of the worst group of templars. It's understandable but saddening that he turned out that way. But I agree... that man should not be put in command of anything. In fact... he should be sent to a Chantry as far away from the tower as possible. Would probably be better for his mental health too.
Pity though... before the crisis he was a very promising Templars. One of the better I'd say. Wouldn't you agree?

I agree that Cullen seemed like a nice person.

Sir JK wrote...
Yes, yes. It was specific circumstances that depended on a lot of factors and the people present. But they still happened. And noone kicked up a fuss about it. So mages being given... okay... earning more freedom and rights is not unheard of. There is room for the Chantry treating mages like real people.

But Wilheim is an isolated case that likely involved a royal boon. One mage being exempted from a standard that still applies to all other mages doesn't speak well. And the fact that some Circles give more leeway than others still speaks for how mages are basically at the heel of the templars.

The problem here is that mages have no rights. Wynne isn't walking into Amaranthine because she can do as she pleases, she's going there because she has permission to go there. Wynne and the other mages are given permission to leave the Circle Tower for specific reasons, and under a Knight-Commander like Cullen, that likely wouldn't be permitted.

Sir JK wrote...

Heh, yes. Probably. Wouldn't be surprised if there's a revered mother or two present as well. Probably have a veto too. But it's still a meeting by mages for mages.

Except Greagoir makes it clear to Cullen that his position as Knight-Command is the "end of the line" when it comes to the fate of every man, woman, and child in the Circle Tower who is a mage during A Broken Circle. Jowan also makes references to how Irving can only do so much as First Enchanter because he can be replaced if he pushes too much, and Jowan's fate is in the hands of the Knight-Commander, who had final say when it come to Jowan.

And the meeting in Cumberland means little if they make no real policy that can give mages more freedom unless it means an all-out war with the Chantry, and it's doubtful that the Knight-Commander of the respective Circle is going to permit any rulings that he or she doesn't want to be enacted (like if a certain Cullen comes to power as Knight-Commander). A meeting for mages that ultimately means little because many are afraid of pushing for too much and ending up dead at the hands of the Chantry sounds pretty bad to me.

Sir JK wrote...

Also, to your Cullen I raise Hadley in Witch Hunt. Who supposedly genuinel asks Finn to take care of himself

I don't think templars are evil incarnate, and it'd be a different issue if they were patrolling the streets to keep things safe or if they didn't have absolute authority over mages. As it is, it seems like it's ultimately going to come down to "mages vs. templars" because the Chantry isn't going to abide by mages being free from the control of the Chantry.

Sir JK wrote...

Also, you hit the nail there in your wording. "... generate money for the circle..." emphasis mine. Is it possible that money goes to the chantry? Of course. But I have not seen any indication that it does. If you have please enlighten me.

Besides the fact that the Chantry controls the Circles?

Modifié par LobselVith8, 07 janvier 2011 - 11:47 .

[Augustei]

Warlokki wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Warlokki wrote...

Qunari. I cannot stand the Chantry in any way. Qunari are meritocratic, something i like.
Their ways will need to be changed a bit though, no more mage leashing (unless a mage deserves that, good alternative for other punisments, considerably more useful for the society) and both sexes should be able to serve as warriors or whatever castes there are.

Changing the Qunari's ways... Damn, you got your work cut out for you. Lol

Well... Think it this way: If you have enough merit, you can get a high position, no? Oh wait, are those limited to the qunari themselves? If any race can get a high position, wouldn't it be a simple (eeh, well maybe not so simple and definetly not fast, probably) matter to change their mind about a few things? Letting women to be warriors is probably easier than letting magi go free though.

EDIT gah, no free love... err... doh. Needs a lot changing then.

Tbh I have no Idea if positions of power are limited to their race or if there is any info on it. But yeah The mage thing would be very difficult to try to convince them of otherwise in one lifetime. Convincing them to let women be warriors would probably be a fair bit easier however, Because the situation isn't quite like the one in Reality where Womens rights were restricted etc. Because I remember reading somewhere that in their culture usually Women take on the Political leadership roles and general Political roles so they are essentially the ones running their society. So its not really out of an act of sexism that these laws are in place but some other reason I have no idea what it could be. At least that is how the situation seems to be to me but maybe it is just sexism with a bit of brainwashing here and there, lol i have no idea.

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...


Except that the Orlesian Empire began with the Exalted Marches of its first emperor, Kordillus Drakon I, who made one Cult of Andraste the official religion through his Exalted Marches and took territory to build his empire, so I don't see how it's any different since the Orlesian Empire continued the practice centuries later.

Considering that nothing in the history of Arlathan, the Dales, or the Dalish clans even alludes to human sacrifice, I don't see how this is anything but propoganda. Even the Arlathan elves were said to retreat from the Tevinters when they started to grow old. And looking at how Orlais invaded Tevinter due to their religious practices (and the Black Divine), the Dalish version of events looks to be the more accurate one, especially since the Dalish say that templars were sent in to the Dales because they refused to convert.


You're confusing the mention of traders being turned back at the border of the Dales with the Second Blight.

You mean they didn't jump at the chance to help the race that destroyed their homeland, enslaved them, and was trying to force them to convert to their religion? I'm shocked, truly.

You realize the elves of the Dales had Emerald Knights to keep humans out, right? I don't see how they would have human sacrifices when their intent is to keep humans away so they reclaim their culture and their immortality. It simply doesn't go together. Honestly, I find it silly because the Dalish elves (of the Dales and the nomadic tribes) are all about reclaiming their lost lore, and stay away from humans because they blame humanity for elves going through the aging process. The Dalish have said that some elves live longer than typical elves (during Nature of the Beast) and no one ever makes reference to any such sacrifice. You'd think that they'd still do it if it was even remotely accurate.

(Hey I cant be bothered fixing and neatening up my post, so every time I take a new paragraph its answering a new question. lol)

The Practice of converting those to christianity through force of torture and death to those who were not members of it was repeatedly practiced in Medieval and Ancient times (Spanish Inquisition and many cases in the Norselands, West Roman Empire and Provinces and Controlled Territories and many other cases). Am I to assume that because all those happened, if i choose not to be christian today I will be killed? 

And just because nothing in their history mentions it, Of what little history they have managed to recovery due to the fact that nearly all of it was lost during the invasions. Just because the little history they have recovered doesn't mention it, Doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I Distintly remember reading that the Dalish refused to assist with the blights after help was requested.

As Duncan repeatedly said during most of the origins, The Blight effects us all, it effects more then the world of Humans. It also effects the elves and they should have helped defeat it in the event that it could also show up at their doorstep and wipe them out. This was the Second Blight after all, and so was loads worth then the one we encounter in Dragon age Origins and so it was far more likely that the darkspawn would have suceeded in wiping them out. Not to mention that they had signed treaties after the 1st blight to help defeat the darkspawn and so they were breaking their oath to the Grey Wardens. Breaking an Oath and disobeying a treaty that a people have signed is a serious offence.


Yes The Emerald Knights were tasked with keeping humans out, They wouldn't have sacrificed any old human (If they did sacrifice them, which Im not saying they did btw, just saying its not certain they didn't) They were probably alot smarter then that because what if a high class nobleman came into the forest and they decided to sacrifice him? Then they would feel the consequences of their actions. They left it to kidnapping people (probably as stealthily as they could) from remote villages and sacrificing those people.

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 08 janvier 2011 - 09:06 .

[Sir JK]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Orlais claims that the attack on Red Crossing was the start of the war, but we have no way of knowing if that's true or not. The attack on Red Crossing could have been provoked by a prior attack, which fits with the Dalish saying that templars were sent into the Dales to force conversion to the Chantry.[/quote]
Yes and Chantry records mention nothing about templars at all. The point there is that both sides lie and both sides tell the truth.
In their own eyes, both sides defended themselves. In their own eyes it was the other side that committed atrocities.
The truth is probably that both sides had done their share of fighting and picking up the pace for the war. Both sides committed atrocities and both is to blame for the war.

[quote]
According to their history, they were victims, but we have no way of knowing whether Orlais, the Dalish, or the scholars are correct for the reason of the war between the Dales and Orlais. All we can do is speculate.[/quote]
Yes. I suggested we pin the blame on both. That they are equally guilty of what happened. The only real difference between the two is that the Dalish lost and paid dearly for it.
Just like most real wars.

[quote]The fact that Irving said he would go about it differently in the Magi Origin, but can't because of Knight-Commander Greagoir.[/quote]
He does? Do you know what I must ask him to get him t say that? All I have ever seen is him skirting around the topic.

[quote]Except we don't need to know how he got the position. Regardless, he's placed in charge of the Circle of Ferelden, and is the highest authority at the Circle Tower. He's an anti-mage templar who presides over men, women, and children. Considering that he rules the Circle of Ferelden in fear, that speaks volumes for how powerless the mages really are against the templars.[/quote]
No, it speaks volumes how powerless the mages are against a militant knight-commander. And how he get the position is important because it would tell us how the templar handles rising ranks. It paints a clearer picture on what lead to it all happening.

[quote]
Yes, yes. It was specific circumstances that depended on a lot of factors and the people present. But they still happened. And noone kicked up a fuss about it. So mages being given... okay... earning more freedom and rights is not unheard of. There is room for the Chantry treating mages like real people. [/quote]

[quote]... And the fact that some Circles give more leeway than others still speaks for how mages are basically at the heel of the templars. [/quote]
It tells us that how mages are treated in the circles are based on the Knight-Commander and the present templars. That it is their individuality and relation with the mages that affects a lot of what happens. So the exact level of oppression depends on the level of animosity.
Hypothetically, in a circle where templars and mages get along and there's not much fighting the mages would probably have a large degree of freedom. In one where many templars are injured and killed mage rights will be heavily restricted.
[quote]... Knight-Commander like Cullen, that likely wouldn't be permitted.[/quote]
Agreed
[quote]
Except Greagoir makes it clear to Cullen that his position as Knight-Command is the "end of the line" when it comes to the fate of every man, woman, and child in the Circle Tower who is a mage during A Broken Circle.[/quote]
Yes, he holds his rank above Cullen's to emphasise that he will not annull the tower. That he as knight-commander is the one and only one that can make that decision and that's final. Even so... he does say before you enter that he must request permission from the Chantry in Denerim before he gets through with it. That he was awaiting a response (and reinforcements) for it.

[quote[Jowan also makes references to how Irving can only do so much as First Enchanter because he can be replaced if he pushes too much, and Jowan's fate is in the hands of the Knight-Commander, who had final say when it come to Jowan.[/quote]
Jowan is not a senior enchanter though, he hardly has insight in the details of tower politics. I'm not saying he is wrong... just not very reliable in the matter.

[quote[And the meeting in Cumberland means little if they make no real policy that can give mages more freedom unless it means an all-out war with the Chantry, and it's doubtful that the Knight-Commander of the respective Circle is going to permit any rulings that he or she doesn't want to be enacted (like if a certain Cullen comes to power as Knight-Commander). A meeting for mages that ultimately means little because many are afraid of pushing for too much and ending up dead at the hands of the Chantry sounds pretty bad to me.[/quote]
Except I got the impression from Wynne, Ines and Anders that the cumberland meeting is significant and whatever decided there is important. For better or for worse.
Amusingly, even Anders is opposed separating circle and Chantry.

[quote]
I don't think templars are evil incarnate, and it'd be a different issue if they were patrolling the streets to keep things safe or if they didn't have absolute authority over mages. As it is, it seems like it's ultimately going to come down to "mages vs. templars" because the Chantry isn't going to abide by mages being free from the control of the Chantry.[/quote]
I agree, with the added clause: "... and some mages don't abide the Chantry governing them". As allways nothing is completely one-sided.

[quote]
Besides the fact that the Chantry controls the Circles?[/quote]
Doesn't mean the money goes to fund a chantry in Rivain. It might actually stay in the circle to be spent on mage stuff like Lyrium... and the upkeep of the Templars of course.

That said... there might be the odd circle where the money is taken by the local Chantry.

Modifié par Sir JK, 08 janvier 2011 - 08:55 .

[HiroVoid]

Sir JK wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Considering that a blood ritual is offered to the Warden at the end of Unrest in the Alienage, I have to respectfully disagree.

I was under the impression that while illegal officially (meaning the imperial chantry, the one you're accusing, don't openly practise it) it is rather easy to get away with if you know what you're doing. So it's not tolerated, just not actively hunted down.

They are taken from their families, forced to live in the Circle under armored soldiers who are trained to watch them with suspicion (and some of who talk about killing them with glee), they're not permitted to leave unless a rare exception is made, and they have their children taken from them. That doesn't even touch on how they can't own land, can't inherit a title, and can be killed with absolutely no evidence against them (like the Magnificent D'Sims was, and he was a fake healer). Saying they just have their freedom restrained is absolutely ludicrious when they have absolutely no freedom to begin with. They're little better than slaves.

Yes, they're treated horribly. But not like slaves. They are kept in house arrest because of what they are. But they are not property with a given monetary value.
Second class citzens (more like fifth class citzens)? Yes
As less than human? Yes
But not slaves.

Slavery means a person is owned and have a monetary value. The mages are neither owned nor have a monetary value. The towers are not selling mages to one another. They don't lease mages for services. They don't buy them. Hence not slaves.
(also, contrary to popular belief. Slavery does not have to mean that you're treated bad or lack freedom. Much of the goverments of the middle east in the ancient world or the middle ages consisted of slaves. So there it was the slaves living in luxury and commanding the free people)

However, you're absolutely right it's incredibly unfair that mages are put in housearrest on pain of death just by merit of being mages.

You mean the tranquil, the mages who lose all emotion and basically live to craft magical items because they lose their humanity? Jowan was willing to risk death to avoid becoming tranquil, so we're going to have to disagree about the tranquil not being little better than slaves.

But again. It is the mages themselves that have decided to make
enchanted goods. Not the chantry. It is also mages that do the
ritual, since it requires the tranquil to have his forehead branded by
magic. Also, I think Jowan was more afraid of the losing emotions part
(as he should be) than becoming a "slave".
Also, from talking with
Owain and other talking, I got the distinct impression that the tranquil
actually get some sense of satisfaction from working and it'd be more
cruel to them not to let them do that.

Also, as horrid the tranquilisation is as a punishment. Remember that it also the only way for mages to be rid of their powers (short of death). A fair few of them actually request it and some of them will have to face either tranquilisation or death by harrowing. I know you prefer death before tranquilisation, but should the option not be there for those willing to take it.

About the verim thing:
The choice of words was very delibirate on my part. Vermin you kill, beasts of burden or attack dogs you train but you keep them alive. You care for them. Albeit not like humans. So they're treated like animals you take care of, but not vermin which you kill.

I never saw what was wrong about being made tranquil anyway.  None of the tranquil I've ever met seem mad or upset about it.

[Bryy_Miller]

You know, I never even thought of the possibility of letting the Qunari take Kirkwall.



Then they would have a stranglehold over Eastern Thedas.

[HiroVoid]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Warlokki wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Warlokki wrote...

Qunari. I cannot stand the Chantry in any way. Qunari are meritocratic, something i like.
Their ways will need to be changed a bit though, no more mage leashing (unless a mage deserves that, good alternative for other punisments, considerably more useful for the society) and both sexes should be able to serve as warriors or whatever castes there are.

Changing the Qunari's ways... Damn, you got your work cut out for you. Lol

Well... Think it this way: If you have enough merit, you can get a high position, no? Oh wait, are those limited to the qunari themselves? If any race can get a high position, wouldn't it be a simple (eeh, well maybe not so simple and definetly not fast, probably) matter to change their mind about a few things? Letting women to be warriors is probably easier than letting magi go free though.

EDIT gah, no free love... err... doh. Needs a lot changing then.

Tbh I have no Idea if positions of power are limited to their race or if there is any info on it. But yeah The mage thing would be very difficult to try to convince them of otherwise in one lifetime. Convincing them to let women be warriors would probably be a fair bit easier however, Because the situation isn't quite like the one in Reality where Womens rights were restricted etc. Because I remember reading somewhere that in their culture usually Women take on the Political leadership roles and general Political roles so they are essentially the ones running their society. So its not really out of an act of sexism that these laws are in place but some other reason I have no idea what it could be. At least that is how the situation seems to be to me but maybe it is just sexism with a bit of brainwashing here and there, lol i have no idea.

Qunari seem to take positions based on what each person seems best at, and they are further raised that way.  Like most other intelligent species, the Qunari females are probably born less athletic than a male Qunari is so they see no reason to place female Qunari in the military when they could do something else better.  I also remember hearing something like them believing that females are better at organization and such so you probably wouldn't see a male Qunari in that type of position.  If the worst comes to happen and a situation similar to Redcliffe happens, Sten says that every man, woman, and child would fight for their survival.  Basically, occupations and such seem to change based on the needs of the people, and they try to make sure that each individual is put in an occupation where they would be best suited for instead of trying to go for the occupation that they neccesarily want.  I'm also guessing that each qunari including the females are put into the mindset that each occupation is their duty.  In other words, it's not sexism, but what they see as most practical.

Modifié par HiroVoid, 08 janvier 2011 - 10:18 .

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

The Practice of converting those to christianity through force of torture and death to those who were not members of it was repeatedly practiced in Medieval and Ancient times (Spanish Inquisition and many cases in the Norselands, West Roman Empire and Provinces and Controlled Territories and many other cases). Am I to assume that because all those happened, if i choose not to be christian today I will be killed? 

Considering the current treatment of the elves who are forced to live in alienages, and the virtual slavery of the mages, I fail to see how the Chantry has changed since the fall of the Dales. Worship of the elven pantheon remains illegal, mages are still hunted down if they aren't under Chantry control, and the Chantry still thinks that their religion needs to be spread across the four corners of the world.

XxDeonxX wrote...

And just because nothing in their history mentions it, Of what little history they have managed to recovery due to the fact that nearly all of it was lost during the invasions. Just because the little history they have recovered doesn't mention it, Doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Except that it's a claim made by people who see the elves as sub-human. They're hardly impartial.

XxDeonxX wrote...

I Distintly remember reading that the Dalish refused to assist with the blights after help was requested.

There is a reference that the elves of the Dales did nothing during the Blight, but there's no mention of them refusing assistance to the humans. Duncan's reference of the treaty (at Ostagar) pertained to the Dalish clans, not the nation of the Dales.

XxDeonxX wrote...

As Duncan repeatedly said during most of the origins, The Blight effects us all, it effects more then the world of Humans. It also effects the elves and they should have helped defeat it in the event that it could also show up at their doorstep and wipe them out. This was the Second Blight after all, and so was loads worth then the one we encounter in Dragon age Origins and so it was far more likely that the darkspawn would have suceeded in wiping them out. Not to mention that they had signed treaties after the 1st blight to help defeat the darkspawn and so they were breaking their oath to the Grey Wardens. Breaking an Oath and disobeying a treaty that a people have signed is a serious offence.

There is no evidence that the treaties with the Grey Wardens were forged during the time of the Dales. If the treaties of Ferelden were forged during the inception of the nation itself, then they were crafted in the time of King Calenhad in the 33rd year of the Exalted Age, when he gained the aid of the Circle of Magi and had the first Landsmeet while the Second Blight took place during the Divine Age, when the Orlesian Empire was first founded and when its emperor established the Order of the Templars, the Circle of Magi, and the Chantry of Andraste. They're more than three Ages apart.

XxDeonxX wrote...

Yes The Emerald Knights were tasked with keeping humans out, They wouldn't have sacrificed any old human (If they did sacrifice them, which Im not saying they did btw, just saying its not certain they didn't) They were probably alot smarter then that because what if a high class nobleman came into the forest and they decided to sacrifice him? Then they would feel the consequences of their actions. They left it to kidnapping people (probably as stealthily as they could) from remote villages and sacrificing those people.

Considering that this is a claim made by Orlais - the same nation that invaded Ferelden that was fully supported by the Chantry, where people were raped and murdered - and has invaded and has tried to invade other nations in the past, I'd take their claims with a grain of salt. Considering there's absolutely no proof to back up the claims of human sacrifices by the elves, I'd consider it nothing more than propaganda.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 08 janvier 2011 - 04:48 .

[LobselVith8]

HiroVoid wrote...

I never saw what was wrong about being made tranquil anyway.  None of the tranquil I've ever met seem mad or upset about it.

They had a lobotomy, so of course they had no issue with it. Just look at how Owain reacts to the abominations running around the Circle Tower - he decides that's the perfect time to start tidying things up.

Sir JK wrote...

Yes and Chantry records mention nothing about templars at all. The point there is that both sides lie and both sides tell the truth. In their own eyes, both sides defended themselves. In their own eyes it was the other side that committed atrocities. The truth is probably that both sides had done their share of fighting and picking up the pace for the war. Both sides committed atrocities and both is to blame for the war.

There's no record of Loghain's mother being raped and killed by Orlesians, but it happened. History is written by the victors, so of course they would blame the other side for the war. I doubt the Chantry would admit to being responsible for starting the war with the Dales, but I'd agree that there's no way we'll ever know for sure what transpired between the two nations.

Sir JK wrote...
He does? Do you know what I must ask him to get him t say that? All I have ever seen is him skirting around the topic.

When the pre-Warden Magi confronts Irving about the fact that Jowan is going to be made tranquil, Irving admits that it's going to happen because Greagoir claims he has proof and that it's out of his hands, but he admits that if it were up to him, things would be different. I admit that he doesn't really go into too many details.

Sir JK wrote...

No, it speaks volumes how powerless the mages are against a militant knight-commander. And how he get the position is important because it would tell us how the templar handles rising ranks. It paints a clearer picture on what lead to it all happening.

The fact that he's in the position at all, and can abuse his authority without restraint, is all the proof I need to see how corrupt the templars can be. I don't think they're all evil incarnate, but having absolute authority over mages will always leave them open for abuse.

Sir JK wrote...

It tells us that how mages are treated in the circles are based on the Knight-Commander and the present templars. That it is their individuality and relation with the mages that affects a lot of what happens. So the exact level of oppression depends on the level of animosity.
Hypothetically, in a circle where templars and mages get along and there's not much fighting the mages would probably have a large degree of freedom. In one where many templars are injured and killed mage rights will be heavily restricted.

Mages shouldn't be imprisoned for being mages in the first place. You're welcome to disagree on this issue, but as far as I'm concerned, there's no reason that templars have any right to imprison people for having magical ability.

Sir JK wrote...

Yes, he holds his rank above Cullen's to emphasise that he will not annull the tower. That he as knight-commander is the one and only one that can make that decision and that's final. Even so... he does say before you enter that he must request permission from the Chantry in Denerim before he gets through with it. That he was awaiting a response (and reinforcements) for it.

But it's clear from Cullen's possible epilogue that he doesn't need to go through proper channels to rule the Circle in fear: he rules the Circle in fear as the new Knight-Commander.

Sir JK wrote...

Except I got the impression from Wynne, Ines and Anders that the cumberland meeting is significant and whatever decided there is important. For better or for worse.
Amusingly, even Anders is opposed separating circle and Chantry.

He disagrees because he, like Wynne, thinks they'll be slaughtered by the Chantry for trying to break free and be independent.

Sir JK wrote...

I agree, with the added clause: "... and some mages don't abide the Chantry governing them". As allways nothing is completely one-sided.

But the Chantry doesn't govern them, they control them. Their lives are in the hands of the Chantry unless they become Grey Wardens. I can see why mages want to be freed from Chantry control, because some people would rather die on their feet than live on their knees.

Sir JK wrote...
Doesn't mean the money goes to fund a chantry in Rivain. It might actually stay in the circle to be spent on mage stuff like Lyrium... and the upkeep of the Templars of course.

That said... there might be the odd circle where the money is taken by the local Chantry.

I doubt that the Circle, which is under the direct control of the Chantry and the presiding Knight-Commander, is going to allow any currency to be funnelled into the pockets of the mages, who can't even inherit a title (or even marry in some cases). I doubt they're going to be buying a local business or a home when humans don't even tolerate elves buying a house outside of the alienage.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 08 janvier 2011 - 04:53 .

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...
There's no record of Loghain's mother being raped and killed by Orlesians, but it happened. History is written by the victors, so of course they would blame the other side for the war. I doubt the Chantry would admit to being responsible for starting the war with the Dales.

And the Dalish makes no mention whatsoever that they burned two cities, massacred a town, brought Orlais to their knees and that it took 11 years to defeat them. Just like the chantry does not mention their atrocities neither do the Dalish. Both sides lie. Chantry and Dalish.
To me at least, the fact that the Dalish let Montsimmard fall to the darkspawn despite that they could have gone in speak volumes of what their view was of humanity and orlesians. I am convinced they were as horrible to the orlesians as the orlesians were to them.

When the pre-Warden Magi confronts Irving about the fact that Jowan is going to be made tranquil, Irving admits that it's going to happen because Greagoir claims he has proof and that it's out of his hands, but he admits that if it were up to him, things would be different.

Thanks, I'll look it up

The fact that he's in the position at all, and can abuse his authority without restraint, is all the proof I need to see how corrupt the templars can be.

Corruption is a fact of any human organisation. Just like a insane templar can abuse his power, so can a mage use blood magic to turn everyone into his puppets. It's regretable, but it could happen even if mages goverened themselves. All that can be done is to deal with it then and there.

Mages shouldn't be imprisoned for being mages in the first place. You're welcome to disagree on this issue, but as far as I'm concerned, there's no reason that templars have any right to imprison people for having magical ability.

That's a separate issue. We're discussing the rights they do have/not have/have the possibility of earning in the circles. Not wether they should be in circles at all.

With reasonable templars and a non-antagonistic atmosphere, mages could have it rather good in the circle. It all depends on how mages and templars treat each others. The mages can improve their position, the key lie in making the l templars realise they are not enemies

But it's clear from Cullen's possible epilogue that he doesn't need to go through proper channels to rule the Circle in fear: he rules the Circle in fear as the new Knight-Commander.

I was speaking solely of the Right of Annulment. That you need to go through the proper channels for that. You don't have to annull the circle to rule it in fear however. That is something you can do without anyone ever hearing of it in a isolated situation. But that's not exclusive of templars. A mage could achieve the same thing in a situation where he/she is in control.

He disagrees because he, like Wynne, thinks they'll be slaughtered by the Chantry for trying to break free and be independent.

Perhaps. I'd like to have asked them more about it. Sad

Yeah, some people would rather die on their feet than live on their knees.

Indeed... these are the same people that make it worse for those who are on their knees though. Fun thing revolutions... they seem to make stuff better for everyone except the ones they were supposed to help in the first place (and the ones losing, obviously).

I doubt that the Circle, which is under the direct control of the Chantry and the presiding Knight-Commander, is going to allow any currency to be funnelled into the pockets of the mages, who can't even inherit a title (or even marry in some cases). I doubt they're going to be buying a local business or a home when humans don't even tolerate elves buying a house outside of the alienage.

No. But perhaps they tolerate the circle purchasing food, blankets, beds, medical supplies, herbs, books, ink, clothes, cutlery, malt, barley and other similar things. You know... what most locations housing (or imprisoning, if you prefer) humans would have to.

Even if the chantry took the money, look at the tower! The mages are living in the lap of luxury. Silks, lyrium, mirrors, full robes, purple and blue dye. Someone is clearly spending a fortune on the mages. It's either the Circle itself (thus mages spending money on their own comfort and luxury) or the Chantry.

[Eclipse_9990]

HiroVoid wrote...

I never saw what was wrong about being made tranquil anyway.  None of the tranquil I've ever met seem mad or upset about it.

Really!? Go to a mental institution and sign your self up for a lobotomy and see how much you enjoy it.

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 08 janvier 2011 - 05:22 .

[LobselVith8]

Sir JK wrote...

And the Dalish makes no mention whatsoever that they burned two cities, massacred a town, brought Orlais to their knees and that it took 11 years to defeat them. Just like the chantry does not mention their atrocities neither do the Dalish. Both sides lie. Chantry and Dalish.

To me at least, the fact that the Dalish let Montsimmard fall to the darkspawn despite that they could have gone in speak volumes of what their view was of humanity and orlesians. I am convinced they were as horrible to the orlesians as the orlesians were to them.

I revised my comments, but it looks like you are already responding to what I wrote when this was crafted. There's a lot of bad blood, and I can see why the elves would want nothing to do with humanity - they lost their homeland, were enslaved and used for blood rituals, and only recently gained their freedom. Of course, given how long those events transpired in DA:O, it's impossible to know who's telling the truth and who is lying. I doubt they'll ever let us know if it's one, the other, or somewhere in between. Maybe the ruler granting the Dalish elves the Hinterlands in DA:O (if the Warden doesn't side with the werewolves) will help move things forward for both people and avoid the mistakes made by Orlais and the Dales.

And YT probably has the Magi Origin scenes with Irving and the confrontation about Jowan.

Sir JK wrote...

Corruption is a fact of any human organisation. Just like a insane templar can abuse his power, so can a mage use blood magic to turn everyone into his puppets. It's regretable, but it could happen even if mages goverened themselves. All that can be done is to deal with it then and there.

Except it can be argued that the Chantry's handling of mages - giving them no freedom and forcing them to be under Chantry control - conditions those who escape and try to be free to resort to becoming blood mages and abominations to survive against the templars that hunt them down.

Sir JK wrote...

With reasonable templars and a non-antagonistic atmosphere, mages could have it rather good in the circle. It all depends on how mages and templars treat each others. The mages can improve their position, the key lie in making the l templars realise they are not enemies

Except it'll be impossible to control human nature. Mages can fall under dark influences as easily as religious leaders can. I certainly don't think mages are any more immune to falling prey to making the wrong choices any more than templars or the Divine are, but it clear illustrates to me why mages should be permitted to govern themselves. Things have been the same for mages and templars for hundreds of years, and I don't see their relationship changing unless mages gain their freedom from the Chantry.

Sir JK wrote...

I was speaking solely of the Right of Annulment. That you need to go through the proper channels for that. You don't have to annull the circle to rule it in fear however. That is something you can do without anyone ever hearing of it in a isolated situation. But that's not exclusive of templars. A mage could achieve the same thing in a situation where he/she is in control.

Except the incidents that we learn about (in regards to the Right of Annulment) came as a result of the conflict between the templars and the mages. As long as mages have no freedom, then I don't see why they wouldn't strive for that freedom - Wynne's comments about Cumberland underscore that some mages yearn to be freed from the Chantry. That isn't going to change, because it's human (and elven) nature.

Sir JK wrote...

Perhaps. I'd like to have asked them more about it. Sad

I would, too. I thought that it'd have been interesting if the meeting in Cumberland would have happened if the Magi Warden asked for independence for the Circle of Ferelden as a tipping point for other mages to think the same for their respective Circles across Thedas. I wish that the Magi Warden could discuss the Magi boon with Wynne. I know that Gaider said that the Chantry says no to the ruler of Ferelden when they discuss the boon, but I wish this had been included in the Awakening expansion instead of referenced on a messageboard. It seems so important, but isn't referenced at all in Awakening or the following DLCs.

Sir JK wrote...

Indeed... these are the same people that make it worse for those who are on their knees though. Fun thing revolutions... they seem to make stuff better for everyone except the ones they were supposed to help in the first place (and the ones losing, obviously).

That's not always true, though. You could argue that Toussaint Loverture irrevocably changed things for the better in Haiti (and even the Americas) when he lead the slave rebellion and helped gain independence from France for Saint Dominique (modern day Haiti). Maybe an apostate Hawke could have the same impact for mages across Thedas, allowing Kirkwall or the Free Marches to become a mecca for free mages. Of course, I have no doubt it would involve bloodshed, death, and potential betrayal, but it'd be no different than when Andraste and Shartan fought to free their people from the Tevinter Imperium.

Sir JK wrote...

No. But perhaps they tolerate the circle purchasing food, blankets, beds, medical supplies, herbs, books, ink, clothes, cutlery, malt, barley and other similar things. You know... what most locations housing (or imprisoning, if you prefer) humans would have to.

That would certainly make sense.

Sir JK wrote...

Even if the chantry took the money, look at the tower! The mages are living in the lap of luxury. Silks, lyrium, mirrors, full robes, purple and blue dye. Someone is clearly spending a fortune on the mages. It's either the Circle itself (thus mages spending money on their own comfort and luxury) or the Chantry.

And no heat! Everyone's always cold in the Circle Tower. I do agree that some money is clearly spent on the mages, but I'd wonder how much more is directed towards the Chantry, especially since there are Circles across Thedas.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 08 janvier 2011 - 05:26 .

[Lord_Saulot]

Tevinter Chantry - we'll drive off the qunari and smash the Orlesian heresy once and for all.

[Sir JK]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
I revised my comments, but it looks like you are already responding to what I wrote when this was crafted. There's a lot of bad blood, and I can see why the elves would want nothing to do with humanity - they lost their homeland, were enslaved and used for blood rituals, and only recently gained their freedom. Of course, given how long those events transpired in DA:O, it's impossible to know who's telling the truth and who is lying. I doubt they'll ever let us know if it's one, the other, or somewhere in between. Maybe the ruler granting the Dalish elves the Hinterlands in DA:O (if the Warden doesn't side with the werewolves) will help move things forward for both people and avoid the mistakes made by Orlais and the Dales.[/quote]
Yes, their hesitance towards humanity was very understandable. It is also one of the primary causes of the war.
But I agree, it is a very interesting situation and we're unlikely to get much clarity on exactly what happened. With any luck it will remain ambigous. It's great out of a story purpose.

I also agree that it would be interesting to what would happen to the Dalish in the hinterlands and if history would repeat itself. The hinterlands sits on a position similar to the Dales (possible to strangle the neighbouring country's primary trade route) so it's a very interesting position.
[quote]Except it can be argued that the Chantry's handling of mages - giving them no freedom and forcing them to be under Chantry control - conditions those who escape and try to be free to resort to becoming blood mages and abominations to survive against the templars that hunt them down.[/quote]
Of course it can, it's probably partially true (there are probably mages turning to it for much less agreeable reasons too). But it is also true that mages turning to blood magic is why the Chantry and Templars racks down on them so much.
Provoking each others. Goading one another to the fight. The wheel goes round and round.

[quote]
Except it'll be impossible to control human nature. Mages can fall under dark influences as easily as religious leaders can. I certainly don't think mages are any more immune to falling prey to making the wrong choices any more than templars or the Divine are, but it clear illustrates to me why mages should be permitted to govern themselves. Things have been the same for mages and templars for hundreds of years, and I don't see their relationship changing unless mages gain their freedom from the Chantry.[/quote]
Indeed. But that freedom the mages want cannot be gained through fighting the Chantry. They can only win their indepence by paying in blood, not the freedom they dream of because if they break loose violently the Chantry will be their eternal enemy always ready to strike. If they want their freedom, they and the Chantry must create it together.

Which won't happen. Both sides are too stubborn for that. Ah... humanity.

[quote]
Except the incidents that we learn about (in regards to the Right of Annulment) came as a result of the conflict between the templars and the mages. As long as mages have no freedom, then I don't see why they wouldn't strive for that freedom - Wynne's comments about Cumberland underscore that some mages yearn to be freed from the Chantry. That isn't going to change, because it's human (and elven) nature.[/quote]
We also know that there are mages who want to remain with the Chantry. The Aequitarians seem to be one the fence, wanting more freedom but not wanting to fight the Chantry (for various reasons). Both Loyalists and Libertarians strike me as extremists. Neither side being good representatives of what mages as a whole want.

[quote]
I would, too. I thought that it'd have been interesting if the meeting in Cumberland would have happened if the Magi Warden asked for independence for the Circle of Ferelden as a tipping point for other mages to think the same for their respective Circles across Thedas. I wish that the Magi Warden could discuss the Magi boon with Wynne. I know that Gaider said that the Chantry says no to the ruler of Ferelden when they discuss the boon, but I wish this had been included in the Awakening expansion instead of referenced on a messageboard. It seems so important, but isn't referenced at all in Awakening or the following DLCs.[/quote]
Indeed, here's to hoping DA2 will give us some answers (and new questions)

[quote]
That's not always true, though. You could argue that Toussaint Loverture irrevocably changed things for the better in Haiti (and even the Americas) when he lead the slave rebellion and helped gain independence from France for Saint Dominique (modern day Haiti). Maybe an apostate Hawke could have the same impact for mages across Thedas, allowing Kirkwall or the Free Marches to become a mecca for free mages. Of course, I have no doubt it would involve bloodshed, death, and potential betrayal, but it'd be no different than when Andraste and Shartan fought to free their people from the Tevinter Imperium.[/quote]
A lot of people died though. Haitians, especially of the Mulatto population. Whenever people fight for freedom it is the innocents that pay the greatest price.
That's not to say one shouldn't fight for freedom... just that it should not be a decision taken lightly.

[quote
And no heat! Everyone's always cold in the Circle Tower. I do agree that some money is clearly spent on the mages, but I'd wonder how much more is directed towards the Chantry, especially since there are Circles across Thedas.[/quote]
Probably some of the money, anything else would be rather odd.

As for the heat thing, that's usually a side effect of living in a big stone building in a rainy cold country. There's a reason everything around here (Sweden) was made out of wood . Though it should be considered that there doesn't realy seem to be any truly warm place in entire Ferelden. Even the royal palace and Fort Drakon looks chilly.

[LobselVith8]

Sir JK wrote...

I also agree that it would be interesting to what would happen to the Dalish in the hinterlands and if history would repeat itself. The hinterlands sits on a position similar to the Dales (possible to strangle the neighbouring country's primary trade route) so it's a very interesting position.

That's true. The DLC Stone Prisoner seemed to take place in or near the Hinterlands, but I'd wager that with the Blight, anyone near there is already homeless and the darkspawn likely destroyed virtually all of the settlements in their wake (or it could cause friction with humans who want to return to their homes and can't). The trade routes that the Hinterlands can provide would likely be the source of the conflicts that Lanaya's epilogue references.

I hope it's a different outcome than the Dales and Arlathan. Alistair and Anora's willingness to grant the elves the Hinterlands (regardless of who the Warden is) does give me optimism, as does Lanaya's ability to quell disputes between the Dalish and the humans. With the Uncharted Territories beneath them, they could always expand south to accomodate their growing population. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Sir JK wrote...

Indeed. But that freedom the mages want cannot be gained through fighting the Chantry. They can only win their indepence by paying in blood, not the freedom they dream of because if they break loose violently the Chantry will be their eternal enemy always ready to strike. If they want their freedom, they and the Chantry must create it together.

Which won't happen. Both sides are too stubborn for that. Ah... humanity. 

Except I don't see the Chantry relinquishing its control of the mages for any reason, besides self-preservation (and even that is tenuious, as Loghain proved). The only thing that I could see bringing the two sides to a truce or an alliance would be another Blight, but that's already been resolved in Ferelden. As far as DA2 is concerned, the Blight's already over, and the Chantry has been in command of mages for centuries now. Their only means of gaining independence would be to fight for their freedom.

Sir JK wrote...

We also know that there are mages who want to remain with the Chantry. The Aequitarians seem to be one the fence, wanting more freedom but not wanting to fight the Chantry (for various reasons). Both Loyalists and Libertarians strike me as extremists. Neither side being good representatives of what mages as a whole want.

Wynne's comment in Awakening seems to indicate that the Libertarians are gaining an edge, though (from her concern that a split could happen).  I wonder if a mage Hawke will play a role in Cumberland (which is near the Free Marches), since DA2 begins roughly at the same time as DA:O. Maybe Hawke will have the opportunity to side with the Loyalists, the Libertarians, or even the Aequitarians to resolve the issue for the Circles across Thedas.

Sir JK wrote...

A lot of people died though. Haitians, especially of the Mulatto population. Whenever people fight for freedom it is the innocents that pay the greatest price.
That's not to say one shouldn't fight for freedom... just that it should not be a decision taken lightly.

I agree completely.

[HiroVoid]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

I never saw what was wrong about being made tranquil anyway.  None of the tranquil I've ever met seem mad or upset about it.

Really!? Go to a mental institution and sign your self up for a lobotomy and see how much you enjoy it.

Well, if I get tranquiled, I won't feel sad about it afterwards.

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...
That's true. The DLC Stone Prisoner seemed to take place in or near the Hinterlands, but I'd wager that with the Blight, anyone near there is already homeless and the darkspawn likely destroyed virtually all of the settlements in their wake (or it could cause friction with humans who want to return to their homes and can't). The trade routes that the Hinterlands can provide would likely be the source of the conflicts that Lanaya's epilogue references.

I hope it's a different outcome than the Dales and Arlathan. Alistair and Anora's willingness to grant the elves the Hinterlands (regardless of who the Warden is) does give me optimism, as does Lanaya's ability to quell disputes between the Dalish and the humans. With the Uncharted Territories beneath them, they could always expand south to accomodate their growing population. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Agreed. Even if the Fereldan would be willing to listen, I doubt the Chasind and Avvar would be thrilled that those weak lowlanders gave their land to filthy elves. There will be friction, there's no doubt about it. Hopefully it does end better than the Dales though.

Except I don't see the Chantry relinquishing its control of the mages for any reason, besides self-preservation (and even that is tenuious, as Loghain proved). The only thing that I could see bringing the two sides to a truce or an alliance would be another Blight, but that's already been resolved in Ferelden. As far as DA2 is concerned, the Blight's already over, and the Chantry has been in command of mages for centuries now. Their only means of gaining independence would be to fight for their freedom.

To win their freedom mages and Chantry would have to learn the most difficult thing of all. To trust one another. Neither side has the patience for that though. Fighting does seem like the quickest and easiest way to win their independence indeed, it's probably the worse way.
But no, I don't expect the Chantry willingly relinquishing their control or evening lessening it any time soon.

Wynne's comment in Awakening seems to indicate that the Libertarians are gaining an edge, though (from her concern that a split could happen).  I wonder if a mage Hawke will play a role in Cumberland (which is near the Free Marches), since DA2 begins roughly at the same time as DA:O. Maybe Hawke will have the opportunity to side with the Loyalists, the Libertarians, or even the Aequitarians to resolve the issue for the Circles across Thedas.

I hope we won't go to Cumberland... my preference would be that the game limits itself around Kirkwall. But with the city housing the largest circle in eastern Thedas (which I assume means bigger than Cumberland) and the largest Templar force in the world... if something does happen in the mage congress, it will ripple into Kirkwall. No doubt about it.

[Augustei]

The War between Orlais and The Dales would not have been without reason, That much is for sure. And for more a reason then simply "They wouldn't convert to our religion" If that were the case they would have wiped out the dwarves or the qunari long ago.. If it is menitoned that they already went to war with the Qunari one should keep in mind they were defending their conquered lands

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering the current treatment of the elves who are forced to live in alienages, and the virtual slavery of the mages, I fail to see how the Chantry has changed since the fall of the Dales. Worship of the elven pantheon remains illegal, mages are still hunted down if they aren't under Chantry control, and the Chantry still thinks that their religion needs to be spread across the four corners of the world.

Except that it's a claim made by people who see the elves as sub-human. They're hardly impartial.

There is a reference that the elves of the Dales did nothing during the Blight, but there's no mention of them refusing assistance to the humans. Duncan's reference of the treaty (at Ostagar) pertained to the Dalish clans, not the nation of the Dales.

There is no evidence that the treaties with the Grey Wardens were forged during the time of the Dales. If the treaties of Ferelden were forged during the inception of the nation itself, then they were crafted in the time of King Calenhad in the 33rd year of the Exalted Age, when he gained the aid of the Circle of Magi and had the first Landsmeet while the Second Blight took place during the Divine Age, when the Orlesian Empire was first founded and when its emperor established the Order of the Templars, the Circle of Magi, and the Chantry of Andraste. They're more than three Ages apart.


Considering that this is a claim made by Orlais - the same nation that invaded Ferelden that was fully supported by the Chantry, where people were raped and murdered - and has invaded and has tried to invade other nations in the past, I'd take their claims with a grain of salt. Considering there's absolutely no proof to back up the claims of human sacrifices by the elves, I'd consider it nothing more than propaganda.

Yes, The Current treatment, but before the events transpiring of the war of the dales. Each kept to his own apart from the ocassional missionary to the dales. It is due to the events that transpired and the attrocities the elves commited, burning chantrys and impaling revered mothers etc. that they are so looked down upon now. This is excluding The Ancient times & The Tevinter Imperium as they are not the chantry and not relevent.

Yes, They See them as Sub-Human now. They were just mistrusting of them prior to that. They were willing to tolarate them prior to the dales incident.

Perhaps you might be right that the humans didn't request assistance. I Remember reading it but it might have been a second hand source im not sure, I will have to check in up for now. But yeah cosidering at the current time I am at a lack of Information I will agree with you on that.

Regardless of whether or not the treaties are in place, of which we do not know how old the treaties are and whether or not it dates to the dales. They still should have assisted with the Blight. I mean they could have all been wiped out by it as well, Better to defeat it before it becomes a serious threat for them as well.. Which it almost did, with it reaching as close as Montsimaad.

Theres no proof to back up the elven claims that they didn't, refer to my above post for this one. There is definitly a reason outside the elves refusal to convert that would cause The tensions to rise between Orlais. So it is still entirely possible that this happened. Like I said in previous posts, The elves have lost tonnes of their history since both the fall of Arlathan and the dales. They could have lost the knowledge of this practice or simply no longer wish to risk it due to the fact that their resources and numbers are so diminished, Should war be declaired again on them The Dalish could be wiped out.

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

The War between Orlais and The Dales would not have been without reason, That much is for sure. And for more a reason then simply "They wouldn't convert to our religion" If that were the case they would have wiped out the dwarves or the qunari long ago.. If it is menitoned that they already went to war with the Qunari one should keep in mind they were defending their conquered lands

Except the Chantry wouldn't risk a war with the dwarves, because the Chantry depends on the lyrium trade with the dwarves to control the templars because of their lyrium addiction. The Qunari did, as you said, invade Thedas, but it took the larger numbers and the mages of the Circle (according to the Genitivi codex about the New Exalted Marches) to drive them back. However, their reason for attacking Tevinter was because they were "heathens."

XxDeonxX wrote...

Yes, The Current treatment, but before the events transpiring of the war of the dales. Each kept to his own apart from the ocassional missionary to the dales. It is due to the events that transpired and the attrocities the elves commited, burning chantrys and impaling revered mothers etc. that they are so looked down upon now. This is excluding The Ancient times & The Tevinter Imperium as they are not the chantry and not relevent.

Looking at what happened to Loghain's mother at the hands of the Orlesians and their conquest of nations, I highly doubt they were picking flowers at the beginning of the war with the Dales. They think it's their Maker-given right to expand their territorial boundaries and spread their religion across the four corners of the world. Why do you assume the worst of the elves? They wanted to restore their civilization and reclaim their immortality by isolating themselves from humanity. You're also citing the attack on Red Crossing as though that was the absolute truth, but we don't know if the attack was provoked or not. According to the Dalish, they kicked out the missionaries, and templars were sent in afterward. Scholars said it was due to territorial disputes that a war started. Who is right? Impossible to say for certain.

XxDeonxX wrote...

Regardless of whether or not the treaties are in place, of which we do not know how old the treaties are and whether or not it dates to the dales. They still should have assisted with the Blight. I mean they could have all been wiped out by it as well, Better to defeat it before it becomes a serious threat for them as well.. Which it almost did, with it reaching as close as Montsimaad.

But why blame the elves entirely for the inaction of a few elves who were likely watching from the border? It's like blaming all of humanity for Cailan and Logain having no faith that they were facing a true Blight. If it was the Emerald Knights who guarded the territory against outsiders, would they have even had the authority to fight the darkspawn, much less risk leaving the borders undefended in case the darkspawn armies tried to march into elven territory? We really know so little about the time period, and plenty of it is biased. And how is the Dales doing nothing any different than when Orlais initially did nothing when the darkspawn attacked the Free Marches in the Towers Age? And only participated because of the Grey Wardens convincing them otherwise. Perhaps the Grey Wardens could have changed the minds of the leaders of the Dales as well, but it's impossible to say now.

XxDeonxX wrote...

Theres no proof to back up the elven claims that they didn't, refer to my above post for this one. There is definitly a reason outside the elves refusal to convert that would cause The tensions to rise between Orlais. So it is still entirely possible that this happened. Like I said in previous posts, The elves have lost tonnes of their history since both the fall of Arlathan and the dales. They could have lost the knowledge of this practice or simply no longer wish to risk it due to the fact that their resources and numbers are so diminished, Should war be declaired again on them The Dalish could be wiped out.

Except it sounds like propaganda, and there's nothing to support it as factual in the game, the novels, or from the creators. Arlathan didn't encounter humans until the Tevinters came, and retreated when they started to age. If it was a practice, why didn't the Tevinters reference it? Why is Orlais the only nation to reference this practice if it's a anything but propaganda? The only reference made is by the nation that conquered the Dales, the same nation that has invaded other nations since it's inception by Emperor Kordillus Drakon I, that later conquered Ferelden in the name of the Maker.

[Sir JK]

LobselvVith8, XxDeonxX: Like you both say, it is impossible for us to know exactly what transpired. Did the orlesian attempt conversion by the sword or where the templars sent as body guards for the missionaries as a response to increasingly violent emerald knights? Was Red Crossing a provoked, if excessive, attack or was it a completely unjustified act of aggression? Were the Dalish lenient occupants than never harmed innocents as they conquered the populated half of Orlais or did they come like a scourge killing anyone that did not flee and hunting down every last andrastian they cam across?

All this we don't and cannot know. Both the written history of the Chantry and the tales of the Dalish are heavily biased against one another. If not outright lies then by subjective truth.



There's two very important things to consider though:

1. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Just because we have no evidence of Dalish/Arlathan transgressions does not mean they did not happen. Remember, the affected region is in Tevinter/Rivvain and Orlais, so if there is any evidence to be found it will be in places we have yet to be shown.

2. The only sources we have of the fall of Arlathan and the March on the Dales are Dalish legends and Fereldan historywriting/Dalish legends respectively. Both have a massive anti-orlesian bias. They have a reason and an interest to make the Orlesians look bad. Just like we can expect Chantry and Orlesian records to be mired with half-truths, subversions, vague meanings, rewriting, propaganda and even outright lies, so should we expect everything we've read and heard about the Orlesians at the time to be filled with those.

Let's face it, all history in the game is told out of a fereldan perspective... and the fereldan have a political interest in making orlesians look like unjustified, bloodthirsty warmongerers.

Similarly, the dalish have an interest in teaching their young that humanity is not to be trusted and will take whatever the elves build out of jealousy.



To get the true picture, we need to go to the orlesian heartlands and to the orlesian dales. There will we get a better picture of what happened. Grave monuments, fade rifts, ghosts, victory monuments, ruins... those will tell us more of what happened than the living ever will.



So to end I suggest that if we are to discuss the merit of the Chantry. Let's discuss who they are now, rather than what they did then. After all... all the people back then, who made the decisions they did are all long dead. It's the people who live now that matters and they should be judged on what they do, not what their ancestors did.