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[V-rex]

Hello, this is my first time trying to make a topic so be easy on me.

Anyway, I think by this point it's no mystery to everyone that I am quite the avid defender of Ashley Williams. I've created text walls that could fill a paperback novel to defend her, to angrily disprove the accusations that she is 'racist' and in turn, that she really isn't deserving of any of the degree of hate she gets.
Sometimes it works, othertimes its met with hate and I get people calling me very mean names that hurt my feelings. But still, I have noticed something rather, unpleasant about the Ashley hate that really has made me stop for thought.

Namely, the response people give Ashley in regards to her being religious. I'm sure we've all heard this one at some point, that she's a 'crazy zealot' or a 'fanatical bible bashing fanatic' or just plain a 'cooky religious b*tch'. I've heard it all, many many times. I've heard people claim that she thinks humanity is the divine descendents of the heavens and that's the reason she dislikes aliens (even though when asked about her religion in accordance with diversity of views in the galaxy, she says the exact opposite of this) and perhaps nastiest of all she apparently 'kills in the name of her god'.

And yet, whenever I actually SEE the scene in question in which Ashley does mention that she happens to believe in god, I find myself underwhelmed.... save for the degree of shock I recieve when I realize the degree to which people can overreact to tiny unimportant details.

At most all she ever does is say "I believe in God." She never even
goes into detail about her belief structure, if there even is one, all
she does is say she believes that her father is with God now. Basically
her belief in a higher power helps her to cope with the deaths of loved
ones.

Seriously, she mentions ONCE, in the entire course of the
game, ONCE that she believes in God. She barely discusses it, doesn't
rub your face in it and doesn't try to force her faith down your throat
and make you have to believe it. Legitimatley not a single thing about
her spirtual side shows any evidence other than that she has a spiritual side.

What shocks me, really, is how amazingly angry people can get about this. I mean its one thing to go ahead and list 'open belief in a higher power' as a negative quality but then to go ahead and overstate the degree of her faith really does shock me.

Does it really not strike anyone as a little hypocritical that for all of people's talk about how she's 'bigotted' and 'intolerant' and 'close minded' the second they hear that she's religious this one tiny detail about her personality causes a huge spewing motherload of anger and hate and bile, as people harshly make her out to be a crazy zealot and act like merely being religious is a crime that is worthy of death?

I'm sorry but really? She's concerned about alien foreign nationals gaining access to secure parts of the most advanced ship in the Alliance navy and that makes her a Neo **** human supremacist, but blind outright unreasoning hatred because she happens to believe in god is just par of the course?
How the hell can anyone defend that stance with a straight face?

I remember watching a video a while back called 'Diversity in games' in which they covered racial/gender/sexuality/ religion issues in games and when it got to the part about religion in games, I instantly flashed to this whole situation. Because it really doesn't bode well for the games industry when we see how much anger and hate one line "I believe in God" can create.

If games, and role playing games in particular are a great medium for entering a new world and taking on a new persona and living a life different to your own and be confronted by choices and moral ideas that can in turn help us learn new things about ourselves.... what does it say if we can be this close minded and hostile over something that. truth be told, really shouldn't matter?

And this is coming from a certified athiest here. Interestingly enough, before I played Mass Effect and was confronted by the whole Ashley thing, I was very much against religion. I mocked it a whole lot and was quick to point out its flaws to people.
Along comes Ashley, and I grow to like her as a character and suddenly BAM! Not only am I romancing her and accepting her religious side, I'm here verbally defending it.


But no, this isn't a thread about pointing accusations of hypocricy or lack of sophistication at people, instead this is merely me asking a simple question.
Why?
Why do people instantly see a crazy zealot and assume they know everything about someone's belief structure (even though it wasn't even mentioned) and were quick to judge and condemn as a result of it?

Why is it that Thane Krios who is so much more up front and in your face about his spiritual side, gets a free ride no questions asked? Is it entirely just because we have this idea that fantasical religion equals exciting and exotic whereas any other form is instantly considered fanatical and insane?

Why is it that I constantly hear people complaining about how Ashley 'forced them to judge her beliefs' and use that as an excuse to why they keep willingly judging her beliefs?
(seriously people, that's a pretty ridiculous stance to try and take)

Finally why is it that in a game where you are tasked to decide the fate of  entire races, pick sides in a great political war, decide between the needs of the many and the rights of the few and so much other stuff... why in God's name (hah irony) is it such a big deal and such a shock and awe that a character might happen to have a religious side?

So yeah, discuss away, what do you think about this whole issue. I myself, find it strange and even kind of disturbing.

EDIT: By the way:

This is NOT a topic about whether or not Ashley is racist, this is solely about her spiritual side, let's keep it civil

Modifié par V-rex, 24 décembre 2010 - 04:11 .

[GodWood]

Epic post, though if I were you I'd post it in either the character discussion forum or the campaign spoilers one.

This side of the forums rarely goes into too much detail.

[V-rex]

GodWood wrote...

Epic post, though if I were you I'd post it in either the character discussion forum or the campaign spoilers one.
This side of the forums rarely goes into too much detail.

Okay, thanks for the heads up.

[BTL1]

What backlash? I don't remember. She's just an unbelievably boring character who also happened to be a racist Christian. Thane's religion didn't matter to me either.

[GodWood]

She never actually specified her religion.

[mellifera]

As an atheist, I never had a problem with Ashley's religious beliefs. In my opinion, there was absolutely nothing that indicated fanaticism or that her... opinions on aliens (which I won't get into because as you say, that's not what this thread is about) are somehow based on a belief in the divine supremacy of human beings. She's not even flaunting her religious beliefs or proselytizing or trying to force me to agree, so to be honest the whole 'bible-thumping' title is just bizarre to me especially considering what little she says about it.

Ashley isn't my favorite by any means, but getting so incensed over her having some form of undefined religious belief is just ridiculous. Her other "beliefs" are definitely more questionable to me, but yeah.

Modifié par yukidama, 19 décembre 2010 - 09:47 .

[Praetor Knight]

My only problem with Ash came when she shot Wrex in the back in my first playthrough.

As a character she's very believable with some depth to her, and seeing what she and her family had to live through because of what happened with her grandfather, I can understand how she developed her beliefs.

[SSV Enterprise]

Amen, V-rex! Seriously, all the Ashley hate confuses me. As you say, she doesn't rub her religion in your face. She doesn't bring it up in conversation often, and she doesn't try to convince you that she is right. I'm left wondering who is the real bigot full of hatred.

About the "racism" (sorry, can't help myself) -- it's not racism! She doesn't think aliens deserve to be treated worse than humans or that humans are superior. She has low opinions of groups that do -- ex. Cerberus and Terra Firma. Her concern was solely about the security of the Normandy. She saw allowing access by aliens to the Normandy in the same way a U.S. Naval officer back in the Cold War might see allowing access by Russians to the a nuclear carrier or submarine. It's a matter of nationality and allegiance, not race. A personal issue, thanks to her family's history, but not a race issue.

Modifié par SSV Enterprise, 19 décembre 2010 - 11:13 .

[Katamariguy]

agreed

[Commander AC]

Well well v-rex that op is full of win, i have no idea where all the hate comes from i guess people trying to be funny, or else they don't want the NPC's to have any character or depth, just want them to be like yes shepard oh shepard i agree with everything you do. It's just a shame that chris has left bioware i thought his mission and dialogue he wrote (Ash, noveria, some side mission) were awesome.

[jojon2se]

For what it's worth; in general, I guess Ashley comes off much better if you play your Shepard as the bigot himself, because that gives her more credible opportunites to go: "No! That's not what I meant at all!", than otherwise.

[Dominus]

Where does the hate come from? Misinterpretation, I suppose - People being raised in drastically different belief structures. I've been an atheist all my life, and that event really didn't phase me, and how it recieved a "fanatic bible basher" point is a very extreme interpretation of Ashley. Don't feed the hate by not responding to the ones spouting all the nonsense. Remove the attention given, and they'll eventually get bored :-P

[yummysoap]

I don't think it's fair for anyone to call her a bible-basher - she very clearly isn't. I do think it's fair when people call her a racist.

[schneeland]

I agree with yummysoap, Ashley does not seem very fanatic, but she does come across as, at least, strongly pro-human and xenophobe.



However, I have to admit that her monotheistic belief made it difficult for me to like her, possibly because she fitted the stereotype of a xenophobe narrow-minded Christian so well.



However, it would have been interesting and maybe even a chance for a second judgement, if we were able to discuss the religious issues in more length, e.g. that instead of agreeing with her belief or turning it down, you were able to tell her "Well, I am a pagan/Buddhist/whatsoever, so I see some things differently ..".



The way she was presented made it relatively easy for me to leave her on Virmire.

[V-rex]

yummysoap wrote...
I do think it's fair when people call her a racist.

I don't.

I believe there is a very fine line between well thought out caution and blind outright hatred. At worst Ashley is a cynic who doesn't buy that the aliens care that much for humanity. When you consider her backstory and lack of general experience working with aliens, it's not hard to see where that mindset comes from.
Despite this, she says and does a plethora of things that contradict the idea that she's racist (volunteering to assist the Salarian team on Virmire, expressing hope to Tali for improved relations with the humans and Quarians, outright despising Terra Firma) not to mention of course being able to work past her viewpoints and change her view on aliens to be a lot more open minded.

But still, different topic for a different time.

Modifié par V-rex, 19 décembre 2010 - 01:35 .

[V-rex]

schneeland wrote...


However, it would have been interesting and maybe even a chance for a second judgement, if we were able to discuss the religious issues in more length, e.g. that instead of agreeing with her belief or turning it down, you were able to tell her "Well, I am a pagan/Buddhist/whatsoever, so I see some things differently .."..

Okay already did the 'xenophobe' argument *twitch* so now I'll just point something out.

Ashley never even covers what her religion is, only that she has one. In fact the whole 'Christian' thing is, again, an assumption. It's never confirmed or covered all that much as to what her beliefs are, she never came across as particularly close minded to me.

In fact if you ask her what her opinion is on people who don't share her beliefs she simply says:
"I'm not some kind of crazy zealot, people can believe whatever they want, it doesn't bother me."

To me it sounds perfectly reasonable.

[Bad King]

I think people were offended by her saying:



"How can you look out at this galaxy and not believe in a higher power?"



Personally though, although I've never liked Ashley that much, this conversation didn't bother me at all. She just has a different opinion. It would have been better though if we'd learned a bit more about her religion rather than her just saying "I believe in God. That won't be a problem RIGHT?". This was why I found Thane to be far more interesting- he gave us a quick glimpse into Drell Polytheism and how it was diminishing due to competition with other religions and due to the younger generations of Drell seeing it as irrelevant to modern life.

[Code_R]

If she was a male character I doubt any of you would be getting so annoyed about this =P



As far as I rememer (and she was a really forgettable character) she's just the standard earth marine cliche.

[Errol Dnamyx]

BTL1 wrote...

What backlash? I don't remember. She's just an unbelievably boring character who also happened to be a racist Christian. Thane's religion didn't matter to me either.

And you are just a horrible poaster, who has no idea what he's talking about. Just say'n.

Modifié par Errol Dnamyx, 19 décembre 2010 - 01:49 .

[Bad King]

Code_R wrote...

As far as I rememer (and she was a really forgettable character) she's just the standard earth marine cliche.

Basically this. What I felt was that they'd tried to make her and Kaidan juxtapose to show differing views within humanity- Kaidan seems more quiet, thoughtful and open-minded while Ashley is tough, gung-ho and distrustful of aliens. While these are relatively cliched characters, at least they'd reversed the personalities to the opposite genders (it's ussually a thoughtful woman and a tough man).

[schneeland]

V-rex wrote...
Ashley never even covers what her religion is, only that she has one. In fact the whole 'Christian' thing is, again, an assumption. It's never confirmed or covered all that much as to what her beliefs are, she never came across as particularly close minded to me.

In fact if you ask her what her opinion is on people who don't share her beliefs she simply says:
"I'm not some kind of crazy zealot, people can believe whatever they want, it doesn't bother me."

To me it sounds perfectly reasonable.

So before I actually reply to your message, let me state:
1) I don't hate Ashley, I just did not find her very interesting
2) I don't hate Christians and I don't find the believe in god unreasonable. Actually, I think, I just don't fall into the Christian god's area of responsibilty.

Well, if I recall correctly, she talked about one god, so the major available choices are: she is a Christian, a Jew or a Muslim. So the default assumption for most Westeners is probably Christian. You are, however, right, stating that she never explicitly elaborates on what specific concept of God she believes in.

However, I do think that faith or rather "the central beliefs" are a big deal, for anyone's personality. Following pagan beliefs myself, I just felt unable to relate to Ashley and her beliefs.

[Gibb_Shepard]

I really don't know why Ash is hated so much, yet Miranda is loved. Ash has legitimate concerns on the aliens, especially since she has never worked with any in the past. She doesn't trust them to begin with, and i don't blame her. Sure she may be a bit more outgoing with the fact that she is looking out for her kind, but that hardly makes her a racist bigot. Miranda on the other hand, does not wish to co-operate with aliens, and believes humans are the superior species. And she's a cold ass wench. I iz confused.

[Xilizhra]

I'm shocked that you made this post, largely because I've never actually encountered any of this supposed Ashley hate. That said, I'm guessing that if it's around,

"How can you look out at this galaxy and not believe in a higher power?"

this is a reason why. She probably didn't intend it, but aside from having First Contact War-ish issues with aliens (plus, the turians codeveloped the Normandy, so it's not like the Alliance has any secrets from the Council on this matter), she sounded condescending towards atheists, and those who are committed to atheism have often faced similar condescension IRL, thus getting angry when they see it reflected in one of their squadmates.

[V-rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

Snip

Thing is, she doesn't actually say 'believe in a higher power' she just says 'believe in... something.'
I.E that she finds it hard to believe that you can't look out in the galaxy and not have some kind of deep belief in regards to it. I wouldn't agree but I see where she's coming from.

This was largely just her response to the many people who were 'wierded out' by her faith, i.e she sees the galaxy and feels that there has to be something greater beyond it with a higher purpose.
I don't think she condescends against athiests, in fact as I said before if you use the renegade response in regards to her religion Ashley merely states that she's not some 'crazy zealot' and that people 'can believe whatever they want to believe, it's none of my business'.

So really, while I suppose it could technically be considered a legitimate complaint. I, as a raging athiest myself, never had any issue with it.

EDIT: As for the whole Normandy thing, true it was co-developed with Turian designs but that doesn't mean there couldn't still be secrets hidden within the data sections of operations and such. After all, it isn't the interspecies Normandy, it's the Alliance Normandy that still exclusively belongs to the Alliance.

Modifié par V-rex, 19 décembre 2010 - 02:12 .

[Xilizhra]

Reasonable. I overall agree with you, but some people are more sensitive to things like this than others.