97 réponses à ce sujet

[schneeland]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

I really don't know why Ash is hated so much, yet Miranda is loved.

It is possibly related to a skin-tight jumpsuit, cleavage and "DAT ass", keeping the focus on, well, other aspects of her than her beliefs

Additonally, while, as stated above, I don't feel particularly attracted to Ashley, I found Miranda to be outright annoying.

[Dominus]

Let's just add richard dawkins as a squadmate and call it even.

[Bad King]

DominusVita wrote...

Let's just add richard dawkins as a squadmate and call it even.

He could be like Mordin lol.

[V-rex]

Bad King wrote...

DominusVita wrote...

Let's just add richard dawkins as a squadmate and call it even.

He could be like Mordin lol.

I'd have figured Legion.

Also sigh.... just realized, despite my best efforts the debate of 'racism' still came through. You just can't say 'Ashley' on this forum without having to prepare a speech defending her case... no matter what the topic.

Modifié par V-rex, 19 décembre 2010 - 02:33 .

[Hathur]

I'm an "atheist" myself and (just like I do in the real world) had no anger or hatred or even dislike for Ashley due to her religious belief (any atheist who preaches to a believer of god and tries to "convert" them is just another form of fanatic... one either comes to accept the existence of a god on their own, or not.. it's a personal acceptance / discovery).

I didn't even overly dislike her that much... my objection to Ashley always rested with her xenophobia.. not her religious beliefs.

(And regarding the other poster(s) on Miranda... I dislike it when devs try to pander to us with blatant lowest-common denominators like Miranda or Samara... ME1 didn't need overtly sexualized characters.. ME2/3 doesn't either...  I just find it immersion breaking when a female dresses like that in a game like this as much as if male shepard were to walk around in crotch-hugging spandex and partially bare-chested.)

Modifié par Hathur, 19 décembre 2010 - 03:04 .

[Collider]

As I explain here, I don't mind Ashley's religion/belief but I do find her apparent reason for believing to be flimsy and illogical.

[Fiery Phoenix]

I think that's a very well-written post, Rex.

Personally, I consider one's religion and beliefs to be a very personal thing that I have the utmost respect for. Ashley struck me as a religious person with an unrealized love for poetry, which I thought was interesting in and of itself. However, my love for Ashley as a character comes from the fact that she feels real; she feels like a de facto human first and foremost. Ironically, this has led a number of people to dislike her character as much as it has led me and many others to really like her, but either way, I think that's a pretty good sign that Ashley is, in fact, a successful character.

She remains my canon love interest, and proudly so.

Modifié par FieryPhoenix7, 19 décembre 2010 - 06:25 .

[Zulu_DFA]

I more wonder, what's up with her Horizon statement, that Shepard is a god? Has she converted to polytheism or something?

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

BTL1 wrote...

What backlash? I don't remember. She's just an unbelievably boring character who also happened to be a racist Christian. Thane's religion didn't matter to me either.

1. Please provide evidence she is xenophobic.

2. Please provide evidence she is Christian.

Hint: you will find neither.

[mellifera]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

I more wonder, what's up with her Horizon statement, that Shepard is a god? Has she converted to polytheism or something?

That was creepy, to be honest .___.

[bjdbwea]

Even if someone doesn't share Ashley's views, they are presented well and make her an interesting, unique and well written character. Her dialogue contains interesting topics and a surprising (for games these days) amount of depth. Of course she doesn't fly like a comic book super hero or says "cool" things all the way, so for people who substitute that for character and personality, she might be a bit boring. I for one always thought that Shepard and the crew being more or less "normal" and "realistic" people, was a refreshingly new concept.

The writing for Ashley in ME 2 is, unfortunately, quite terrible, like it is for all the ME 1 LIs. I still hope that a DLC might finally give her role the amount of quantity and quality that she would have deserved in ME 2 from the beginning.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 19 décembre 2010 - 07:35 .

[syllogi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

I more wonder, what's up with her Horizon statement, that Shepard is a god? Has she converted to polytheism or something?

She enjoys poetry, and was making a poetic statement, probably lifted from Tennyson.  

I thought it was pretty bold, and interesting, that Ashley chose to confide to Shepard about her belief in God, and the fact that theism has apparently "gone out of style" in the future.  You don't see any mention of religion at all in most sci-fi video games.  

I do think that people's reactions to Ashley's beliefs are magnified by the Virmire Effect.  People unconsciously absorb the choice they have to make on Virmire as a condemnation of Ashley and Kaidan, and so they make up reasons why they are bad and awful and deserve to be nuked, even if their favorite aliens and badass tattooed people have many of the same traits, often amplified or exaggerated.  If Ashley had been an alien who believed in a deity and quoted poetry, it would have been charming and quaint.  For a plain ol' human, it's a sin.

[RAF1940]

I'm an atheist, and I didn't really have any problems with her religion. She just made me mad when she shot Wrex...

Modifié par RAF1940, 19 décembre 2010 - 08:39 .

[Brass_Buckles]

I had nothing against Ashley's religious beliefs, and I still don't. I know you said this is not a thread about her being racist or not, but when she outright compares the aliens to a dog? "You might love your dog, but you'd save a human first," or something like that? I'd say that's the prime evidence that she doesn't exactly see aliens on equal footing with humans; it's certainly the main part of her dialogue that made me outright dislike her, because how could she possibly say something like that in regard to other sapient beings? Your dog can't carry a conversation with you. No, that comment had nothing to do with caution or security. That came off as pretty blatantly anti-alien. And she also explains why she's anti-alien/obsessed with succeeding to you at one point--her grandfather was the guy who lost a major campaign against the turians. Of course having reasons for it doesn't make it right.

I've occasionally chosen to save her over Kaidan, partly because Kaidan is a jerk and a half on Horizon if you romance him (also if you don't, but especially if you do) and partly because she's less of a bore (her family sounds pretty cool, actually) and has a family she probably wants to see again. But no, for me, her religion has never factored into it. I never even saw her religion as a factor in the xenophobic (or at the very least, ill-chosen) dialogue that she has. While I believe she is most likely Christian (as this is the primary monotheistic religion in the world, and she doesn't call God Allah or seem altogether Jewish to me) or simply a deist (has a belief in God, often monotheistic, with no specific religion behind it), she only says she believes in a higher power. So in this, I'm with V-Rex--there's no reason for all the hate on her religion. Now if there were any dialogue or other solid evidence to indicate that her religion is indeed the reason that she can outright compare aliens to a family dog, then I'd understand the bashing (there's religious, and then there's dangerously fanatical).



And yet, I do take some serious issue with Thane's religion, as it denies responsibility for a person's actions--something you can point out to him and disagree with him on during dialogue, but evidently it won't keep him from falling all over your female Shepard anyway.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Brass_Buckles wrote...

I had nothing against Ashley's religious beliefs, and I still don't. I know you said this is not a thread about her being racist or not, but when she outright compares the aliens to a dog? "You might love your dog, but you'd save a human first," or something like that?

You do realize she's talking about the Council's attitude towards humans, right? She's saying that the Council will look out for themselves above humans, and that that is a natural attitude to have. That statement had nothing to do with her attitude toward aliens.

[FireEye]

TeenZombie wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

I more wonder, what's up with her Horizon statement, that Shepard is a god? Has she converted to polytheism or something?

She enjoys poetry, and was making a poetic statement, probably lifted from Tennyson.

Yeah, the "Shepard is a god" thing never seemed odd to me at all.  It's all around in classical poetry, too. 

Personally, I've never seen Ashley as bigoted, boring, a religious fanatic, or whatall else has been thrown at her in a derogatory way.  She's one of my favorite characters, and my (atheist) Shepard's best friend.  Virmire always tears me up inside, because it's her and the other favorite character on the spot and no matter what I do I can only take one of them with me. 

[VutaatVerd]

Hey V-Wrex I know you al talking about Ashley's Religion, but I though Ashley's Lore writer might help with the idiots who think she is a racist.

TeenZombie wrote...



I've been meaning to drop this quote off in this thread for a while, so here is a quote that (hopefully) will put the "Ashley hates aliens" myth to rest.  This is Chris L'Etoile, former Bioware writer, who wrote Ashley, and posts around the web as Stormwaltz, on the Penny Arcade forum Mass Effect thread:

I find it interesting that so many people have stereotyped her as "the racist." At a couple of points she blasts the Terra Firma party as being "bigots," and she openly admires the power of the Destiny Ascension in the Citadel approach cutscene - not quite what you'd expect from a xenophobe.



In her first conversation she spells out her thinking pretty explicitly (the bear and dog metaphor), and it's nothing more than a short paraphrase of the most memorable passage in Charles Pelligrino and George Zebrowski's novel "The Killing Star":

When we put our heads together and tried to list everything we could say with certainty about other civilizations, without having actually met them, all that we knew boiled down to three simple laws of alien behavior:



1. THEIR SURVIVAL WILL BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN OUR SURVIVAL.

If an alien species has to choose between them and us, they won't choose us. It is difficult to imagine a contrary case; species don't survive by being self-sacrificing.





2. WIMPS DON'T BECOME TOP DOGS.

No species makes it to the top by being passive. The species in charge of any given planet will be highly intelligent, alert, aggressive, and ruthless when necessary.





3. THEY WILL ASSUME THAT THE FIRST TWO LAWS APPLY TO US.

And it's hard to dispute this. At the least, you could say the krogan live by these rules. It's certainly a more suspicious and pessimistic point of view than most of us are comfortable with. But is it racism, or realism?



Anyway. I fully expected some people write her off as a bigot. What surprises me is that no one's pointed out that her position does have some sense. Evidently, I did something very wrong here.



To answer a question from... I don't know, tens of pages ago, if you romance her and have persuade, you can convince her to be a bit less extreme in her opinions.

Link to post



And there you have the man who wrote the character, telling us what she meant by the bear and dog comment, and her view on aliens.  Realism, not racism.



So there!!!

[RAF1940]

DominusVita wrote...

Let's just add richard dawkins as a squadmate and call it even.

Definitely.


KICK-A team: Shep, Wrex, Dawkins

[Malanek]

V-rex wrote...
And yet, whenever I actually SEE the scene in question in which Ashley does mention that she happens to believe in god, I find myself underwhelmed.... save for the degree of shock I recieve when I realize the degree to which people can overreact to tiny unimportant details.

At most all she ever does is say "I believe in God." She never even
goes into detail about her belief structure, if there even is one, all
she does is say she believes that her father is with God now. Basically
her belief in a higher power helps her to cope with the deaths of loved
ones.

Seriously, she mentions ONCE, in the entire course of the
game, ONCE that she believes in God. She barely discusses it, doesn't
rub your face in it and doesn't try to force her faith down your throat
and make you have to believe it. Legitimatley not a single thing about
her spirtual side shows any evidence other than that she has a spiritual side.

She talks about god and religion more than once. Another example is when she says "Damn shame, god only gives you one life" when she sees people have commited suicide somewhere in the hotlabs complex. It has been quite a while since I played ME1, I'm sure there are others. I definately got the impression that she was quite strongly religious. Added to that she does come accross as a little bit racist (specieist?) and very brash and sure of herself, and combining all of these is the reason a lot of people dislike her. I think she is an excellently written character though because these contrast nicely with her strength and determination.

[AdmiralCheez]

I'm an atheist, and I think that people getting their knickers in a twist about a video game character believing in a god is stupid. Faith can be a beautiful thing, and it adds depth to her character when you think about how it may have guided her through life. Just because I think religion happens to be a placebo doesn't mean I hate everyone that gets their fix on it.

Seriously, the fact that a video game character says anything about how they see the universe is deep. Ashley was human, and that's why people love her.  And if religion was that big an issue, how come no one gets worked up about Thane being a pantheist?  Asari and their belief in a goddess?  Turians and their animism?  The salarians and their belief in reincarnation?

Bioware was ballsy for talking about god in the same game that has a lesbian love scene, I think.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 19 décembre 2010 - 10:11 .

[RAF1940]

Her racism against all alien races was what annoyed me. I loved having them on the Normandy.

[Zulu_DFA]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
about Thane being a pantheist?  Asari and their belief in a goddess?  Turians and their animism?  The salarians and their belief in reincarnation?

First, Thane is a polytheist. Secondly, all of them are cool aliens and can't be jerks by definition (see the post above for details).

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 19 décembre 2010 - 10:15 .

[Malanek]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
And if religion was that big an issue, how come no one gets worked up about Thane being a pantheist?  Asari and their belief in a goddess?  Turians and their animism?  The salarians and their belief in reincarnation?

This is really the question, but people undeniably do. As I said above, I believe it is the combination of her beliefs and personality along with the way she expresses it that rail people.

[Praetor Knight]

Collider wrote...

As I explain here, I don't mind Ashley's religion/belief but I do find her apparent reason for believing to be flimsy and illogical.

First, I think Ash is a person of faith, and you could say takes a leap faith in her beliefs a la Soren Kierkegaard, both in being easily misunderstood and having deeply rooted beliefs that she briefly brushes over with Shep, or mentions in passing.

The way the conversations can go with Shep makes her seem more thoughtful then she typically acts (and I'd say she acts "tough" because of her being passed over for promotions, staying as Gunnery Chief for so long and being around younger guys in a leadership role).

So all things considered she feels like a real person to me, and it seems that people are taken aback by her strong attitude (and shooting Wrex, if that happened unexpectedly) more than her what her beliefs are or not.

Also, here's another link on Soren.

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 19 décembre 2010 - 10:37 .