97 réponses à ce sujet

[schneeland]

Well, actually there may be a bit of truth in what TeenZombie says: It was a bit like "Ok. If I have to, I will leave the character the seems to be a stereotype anyway".



Also, my impression was, that besides Thane no other character really talked about spirituality or religion. So it's not like we are really confronted with all the other belief systems, even if we know about them.

[Cra5y Pineapple]

I agree, people instantly hate on her just because she mentions her religon once. Never been a big fan of her myself being bias towards the aliens but the point still stands.

[Kim Shepard]

The main reason why Ashley's religion is a negative point for me is because of the way she presents it. On my first playthrough, I played an Earthborn Sole Survivor MaleShep, and he's an atheist. Her conversation about Akuze was the first one that wasn't about what happened on Eden Prime, if I remember correctly, or at least it was one of the earliest conversations, so her religious beliefs were brought up very soon in the game. After talking about how Shepard survived, she made a comment about how someone was watching over him. That MaleShep's a pretty paranoid guy, so he answered with an uneasy "...Watching me?" as his response, then the religion conversation started.

If Ashley just said her opinion and moved on, I wouldn't have minded as much. Thane is a religious character too, and although his beliefs are the biggest thing I don't like about his character, he doesn't question Shepard's beliefs. Ashley almost seemed to be in disbelief that Shepard didn't share her opinion about religion. She asked him a few times (in that same conversation, not others) why or how he didn't believe in something. The "How can you look out at this galaxy and not believe in something?" line was one of them. I would have liked Shepard to have an option that said "What makes you look out at this galaxy and believe in something?" Not in a mean or sarcastic way, just in the form of a question to make her understand that their beliefs are completely different. Two people can look at the exact same thing, like the galaxy, and have completely different opinions about it.

I don't mind different opinions, but when characters can't seem to understand why Shepard doesn't believe the same thing as them, it's annoying. I won't mention any of the conversations that aren't related to religion here because that's not what this topic is about, but every dialogue between her and Shepard was like this every time I played the game.

[AdmiralCheez]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

First, Thane is a polytheist. Secondly, all of them are cool aliens and can't be jerks by definition (see the post above for details).

Aw, crud.  I can't believe I had a definition fail on something like that while I'm writing a paper on religious minorities as we speak. *facepalm*  I R SMURT.

[Ajara123]

I dont believe her religion is a big deal. You can either agree with her or not thats how it was put in the game. Its not like she is real, an actually trying to force her religion on you.

[Morty Smith]

Well, the reason for me to not include her in my team was simply because I did not find her character to be interesting. As for the debate that might have been sparked by her conversation I´m with the paragon shepards response: "belief what you like, there is no right or wrong."

[Funkcase]

I find those that hate on her for her religous views seriously shallow. Think realistic people, Ash is a women of the military, she see's friends die all the time. It makes sense that she would find comfort in the thought that she will see her fallen friends and family again when she dies. Maybe the thought that her father is looking down on her drives her forward, to do him proud.

[thq95]

I love how some people are scared to death of all things Ashley, I'm willing to bet she is loved by some and hated by others, like Casey Hudson said once, they gave the players a choice.



Personally I think Ashley was the most realistic character in the game, faith in God is a big part of alot of peoples lives, especially people that could die at any second. I also think her views on aliens are realistic as well, most people who throw the racist charge around don't consider the first contact war and the genocide the alien races have commited in the backstory, or even the fact that many of the alien races just plain hate humans.

[Selenora]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

I really don't know why Ash is hated so much, yet Miranda is loved. .

Coz of dat ass?

[Tootles FTW]

schneeland wrote...

I agree with yummysoap, Ashley does not seem very fanatic, but she does come across as, at least, strongly pro-human and xenophobe.

However, I have to admit that her monotheistic belief made it difficult for me to like her, possibly because she fitted the stereotype of a xenophobe narrow-minded Christian so well.

However, it would have been interesting and maybe even a chance for a second judgement, if we were able to discuss the religious issues in more length, e.g. that instead of agreeing with her belief or turning it down, you were able to tell her "Well, I am a pagan/Buddhist/whatsoever, so I see some things differently ..".

The way she was presented made it relatively easy for me to leave her on Virmire.

This. It was too much in one conversation.

"Hi, I'm Ashley.  And I'm religious.  YOU GOT PROBLEM!?  Oh, and I also don't like aliens.  But those two things are not related in any way." 

And it's not even the fact that she believes in God(s), it was her particular justification for that belief: "How can you look out at this galaxy and not believe in a higher power?"  Sorry, but in this day of science and logical thinking (let alone the future) that is not an acceptable rationale for me. 

*Note - I don't mean to ****** anyone off with this, religion and politics are The Unforgivable Topics, just offering my personal view.

[Fiery Phoenix]

TeenZombie wrote...


She enjoys poetry, and was making a poetic statement, probably lifted from Tennyson.  

I thought it was pretty bold, and interesting, that Ashley chose to confide to Shepard about her belief in God, and the fact that theism has apparently "gone out of style" in the future.  You don't see any mention of religion at all in most sci-fi video games.  

I do think that people's reactions to Ashley's beliefs are magnified by the Virmire Effect.  People unconsciously absorb the choice they have to make on Virmire as a condemnation of Ashley and Kaidan, and so they make up reasons why they are bad and awful and deserve to be nuked, even if their favorite aliens and badass tattooed people have many of the same traits, often amplified or exaggerated.  If Ashley had been an alien who believed in a deity and quoted poetry, it would have been charming and quaint.  For a plain ol' human, it's a sin.

Seconded.

[Clover Rider]

Tootles FTW wrote...

schneeland wrote...

I agree with yummysoap, Ashley does not seem very fanatic, but she does come across as, at least, strongly pro-human and xenophobe.

However, I have to admit that her monotheistic belief made it difficult for me to like her, possibly because she fitted the stereotype of a xenophobe narrow-minded Christian so well.

However, it would have been interesting and maybe even a chance for a second judgement, if we were able to discuss the religious issues in more length, e.g. that instead of agreeing with her belief or turning it down, you were able to tell her "Well, I am a pagan/Buddhist/whatsoever, so I see some things differently ..".

The way she was presented made it relatively easy for me to leave her on Virmire.

This. It was too much in one conversation.

"Hi, I'm Ashley.  And I'm religious.  YOU GOT PROBLEM!?  Oh, and I also don't like aliens.  But those two things are not related in any way." 

And it's not even the fact that she believes in God(s), it was her particular justification for that belief: "How can you look out at this galaxy and not believe in a higher power?"  Sorry, but in this day of science and logical thinking (let alone the future) that is not an acceptable rationale for me. 

*Note - I don't mean to ****** anyone off with this, religion and politics are The Unforgivable Topics, just offering my personal view.

It's funny I may not like or hate her I don't care if she is religious or has any hate for aliens,But what I did not like about her is her hate for politics and politicians I know a lot of army soldiers who hate them too but for me I just don't get how you can go into the army with hate for them.

Modifié par Some Geth, 20 décembre 2010 - 08:30 .

[Aidoru Kami]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

I really don't know why Ash is hated so much, yet Miranda is loved..

wat

Miranda gets a lot of hate. Go to any thread that asks what character you like the least is and you'll see her with quite a few. Not as many as Jack or Jacob, but she still will get a few for coming off as just a cold character to some. I have no idea how much she gets compared to Ashley.

Anyway. I don't really care about her religious beliefs. As for the whole racism argument... now, now people... www.youtube.com/watch

[Selenora]

What i dont get is why sooooooooooo many ppl here think the council is jerks but accuse Ash for thinking the same.

[Selenora]

TeenZombie wrote...
 even if their favorite aliens and badass tattooed people have many of the same traits, often amplified or exaggerated.  If Ashley had been an alien who believed in a deity and quoted poetry, it would have been charming and quaint.  For a plain ol' human, it's a sin.

i bet everyone of us, seeing an alien knocking at our doors, would think.......wow...aliens are cool...aliens are good.......

[V-rex]

Tootles FTW wrote...

This. It was too much in one conversation.

Actually the whole religion thing is part of one very long conversation that ends with her being religious as a side note at the very end.

"Hi, I'm Ashley.  And I'm religious.  YOU GOT PROBLEM!?

Actually it sort of happens to come into conversation that she believes in God, after which she merely asks what Shepard thinks about it. There's nothing particularly angry or aggressive or in your face about it.

Oh, and I also don't like aliens.

Wasn't mentioned in the same conversation, don't know why it has context here.

But those two things are not related in any way."

Indeed.... those two things are NOT in any concievable or imaginable way connected. Not in one single tiny way, no more than my dislike for Brussel Sprouts is connected to my liking of pickles.

And it's not even the fact that she believes in God(s), it was her particular justification for that belief: "How can you look out at this galaxy and not believe in a higher power?"  Sorry, but in this day of science and logical thinking (let alone the future) that is not an acceptable rationale for me.

Surely if you are mad at her justification for believing in God in the first place, then that is in fact being mad at her for believing in god? If she is spiritual, it is probably because she believes or likes to believe in a higher power due to losing loved ones. After all she comforts herself about her dead father using that ideal.

Also as a note, she doesn't say 'higher power' she says 'something'. She wasn't declaring it unfeasible that people couldn't believe in a higher power, just that she couldn't belive that people couldn't believe in something when they looked out at the grand sights of the universe.
Yes its a spiritual argument, but it's not one grounded by her declaring her faith as infallible truth.

[V-rex]

Kim Shepard wrote...

If Ashley just said her opinion and moved on, I wouldn't have minded as much.

She does though. Very quickly even.

Thane is a religious character too, and although his beliefs are the biggest thing I don't like about his character, he doesn't question Shepard's beliefs. Ashley almost seemed to be in disbelief that Shepard didn't share her opinion about religion. She asked him a few times (in that same conversation, not others) why or how he didn't believe in something.

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. In the conversation I got and that I am using as the primary example here, Ashley isn't asking Shepard about his opinion on the galaxy, she is asking Shepard about what his opinion is on her own beliefs. She asks if there are any issues about her believing in god, shortly afterwards she explains that the reason she asked is that she has had a lot of people who have been 'wierded out' by her faith.

I.E basically by letting it slip the fact that she believes in god, she's confiding something with you.

The "How can you look out at this galaxy and not believe in something?" line was one of them. I would have liked Shepard to have an option that said "What makes you look out at this galaxy and believe in something?" Not in a mean or sarcastic way, just in the form of a question to make her understand that their beliefs are completely different. Two people can look at the exact same thing, like the galaxy, and have completely different opinions about it.

Like I said, the Ashley I experienced never asked such questions. That whole 'look out into the galaxy and not believe in something line' is not directed at Shepard. Going back to the bit about working with people wierded out by her faith, Ashley contiued by saying that it was wierd that people thought she could work in space and not believe in a higher power.
Hence when she says 'how can you look out there and not believe in something' it is not her preaching to Shepard. It's her just saying that she finds it strange that people can stare at the awe and wonder of the universe and not at least have some kind of emotional response and just wonder a few things and have beliefs.

I don't mind different opinions, but when characters can't seem to understand why Shepard doesn't believe the same thing as them, it's annoying. I won't mention any of the conversations that aren't related to religion here because that's not what this topic is about, but every dialogue between her and Shepard was like this every time I played the game.

Thing is, as the game progresses she gets more agreeable. Besides, she never came across like she was having difficulty believing that someone could disagree with her. She was very sure of her own opinions, for a time anyway later on she notices holes in them, but I never got the honest impression she was somehow in disbelief that someone could disagree with them.

[V-rex]

Mezzil wrote...

 It's like she's saying those that died were not good enough to be saved by god. 

No,  I really think that's unfair. I know you personally are not playing this argument but still, that's based on a large percentage of generalization and, if you ask me, biased viewpoints. Focus on the fact that she's saying you go out and were saved, not on the people dead. Unless she actually mentioned them, it's really unfair to assume she had any thoughts on that matter.

In other words the people who would percieve it like that and in turn are having a problem with it, are having a problem that they created themselves rather than anything actually said and implied by the character herself. In short, finding ways to be outraged by what she said by drawing accusations that aren't there.

What I'm saying is, finding unpleasant implications based solely on assumptions and implications that were almost certainly unintended does not give one the excuse to berate someone's religious views.

Modifié par V-rex, 20 décembre 2010 - 09:09 .

[Tootles FTW]

V-rex wrote...

Actually the whole religion thing is part of one very long conversation that ends with her being religious as a side note at the very end.

I'll have to defer to you in this, as I haven't played Mass Effect in a year or so.  For some reason I remembered it taking place in convo #1 following Eden Prime, where she mentions not trusting aliens.

Indeed.... those two things are NOT in any concievable or imaginable way connected. Not in one single tiny way, no more than my dislike for Brussel Sprouts is connected to my liking of pickles.

In your opinion.  Just like, in Ashley's opinion, she's "not really racist".  Because, historically, religion is never a causative for social bias...I must be raving mad for trying to connect those dots, surely. 

Surely if you are mad at her justification for believing in God in the first place, then that is in fact being mad at her for believing in god? If she is spiritual, it is probably because she believes or likes to believe in a higher power due to losing loved ones. After all she comforts herself about her dead father using that ideal.

No, because as I said it wasn't her belief that offended my intelligence but her reasoning behind it.  I'm not hating on Ashley - I feel this way towards anyone who justify their beliefs with "because the universe confuses me" or some derivative.  If she had stated it any other fashion (like your example, "it brings me comfort") it wouldn't have irked me, honestly.

Also as a note, she doesn't say 'higher power' she says 'something'. She wasn't declaring it unfeasible that people couldn't believe in a higher power, just that she couldn't belive that people couldn't believe in something when they looked out at the grand sights of the universe.
Yes its a spiritual argument, but it's not one grounded by her declaring her faith as infallible truth.

I got that quote from the Mass Effect Wiki, so I'll have to take your word for it if you say she states something different.  But that is pure semantics at the end of the day - the meaning (which is what I was commenting on) is the same regardless of the exact wording.  And I agree, she's not a zealot or shoving it down Shep's throat or any of this...I just noticed a pattern of traits and behaviors in Ashley that cued red warning flags for me.  I don't know what else to say, since we obviously interpreted her character differently.
I can see why different personalities would love her, just as I see how other people can dislike Kaidan or Garrus (whom I love) for traits that they perceive as negatives. 

Modifié par Tootles FTW, 20 décembre 2010 - 09:55 .

[V-rex]

Tootles FTW wrote...
Snip

Okay, just a few basic points:

1. The distrusting aliens conversation isn't even directly after Eden Prime, she mentions the loss of her platoon as the first real 'official' conversation. It's after you get evidence on Saren and have Wrex, Garrus and Tali that the whole alien thing even comes up.
Her religion is in the conversation that follows, but it's a very f*cking long conversation in which she mentions her family, military history, her dad, poetry and finally that she believes in God at the very end of it.

2. I always got the impression that her belief in god stems from an emotional viewpoint of the galaxy rather than a logical one. Also even though she never says it directly, I always figured she used the whole 'god' thing as a way to comfort herself when people she cared about dying (case in point: She remarks that a good man like Kaiden must be with god now if he died on Virmire)

3. Yes it is true that religion has been used in the past as an excuse for racism, genocide and ideals of fascist supremacy. But that doesn't mean that Ashley in particular fits that criteria. Like I said in my original post, when asked about it Ashley says that she doesn't believe humans have a divine mandate or that they are superior.
Basically, her religion has nothing to do with her distrust of aliens.
In truth her cyncism in regards to aliens comes from her bad family history (First Contact War, Shanxi, Grandfather being the first human ever to surrender to an alien race and as a result her family name and military career being in the muck for it) and lack of personal experience (never worked with or even had much contact with aliens prior, to her this is all new and as a result, she's cautious).
It's very hard to believe that Ashley doesn't like aliens because she believes some deity is pointing a finger at them and declaring that they are all bad and humans are all great.

4. Finally I agree with you that there doesn't seem to be much point continuing this, we clearly interpreted the character differently and are entitled to our views, whatever they are.
I'll respect yours if you respect mine, agree to disagree.

[Tootles FTW]

V-rex wrote...

1. The distrusting aliens conversation isn't even directly after Eden Prime, she mentions the loss of her platoon as the first real 'official' conversation. It's after you get evidence on Saren and have Wrex, Garrus and Tali that the whole alien thing even comes up.

Okay, I know I'm not completely mentally disturbed here - I looked it up. The first big conversation you get with Ashley (the one immediately following Eden Prime was brief and didn't touch on her backstory/opinions regarding anything but Eden Prime) is about aliens.  Though the conversation placement isn't even the point of either of our arguments, heh.

And yes, agreeing to disagree.    (Honestly, I've never even thought this much into the character of Ashley before, so it made for good character introspection at least.)

[Xilizhra]

(case in point: She remarks that a good man like Kaiden must be with god now if he died on Virmire)

This is actually a statement in her favor, since I don't think Kaidan was religious at all. So whatever her god is doesn't require belief, it seems.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

Ash doesn't deserve the hate she gets.

Her only real problems are objective - she's generally a little too plain gamewise and lookswise, since her abilities in ME1 are not that useful compared to the others (no cc powers), and in terms of looks she barely stands out over the regular NPCs. I guess this has made her an easy target.

Maybe this will change in ME3 or something, if BW tweaks her look (higher res like everyone else) and give her some imba skillset like FBG+SquadCryo or whatever.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 21 décembre 2010 - 03:40 .

[Selenora]

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

Ash doesn't deserve the hate she gets.

Her only real problems are objective - she's generally a little too plain gamewise and lookswise, since her abilities in ME1 are not that useful compared to the others (no cc powers), and in terms of looks she barely stands out over the regular NPCs. I guess this has made her an easy target.

Maybe this will change in ME3 or something, if BW tweaks her look (higher res like everyone else) and give her some imba skillset like FBG+SquadCryo or whatever.

Or...dat ass?:innocent: