97 réponses à ce sujet

[schneeland]

Selenora wrote...
Or...dat ass?:innocent:

Please, have mercy! Unless the subtitle the third part as "porn effect", I really hope, they will step back a bit to a more modest style.

It is already puzzling enough that all characters in the Mass Effect universe look like they do the gym daily.

[C9316]

Aside from being slightly racist I don't see why Ash get so much hate. I don't really have a problem with her religious beliefs, like someone said already if she were some alien and she expressed faith in a god it wouldn't matter as much but because she's a human everyone has to bash her.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

Selenora wrote...

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

Ash doesn't deserve the hate she gets.

Her only real problems are objective - she's generally a little too plain gamewise and lookswise, since her abilities in ME1 are not that useful compared to the others (no cc powers), and in terms of looks she barely stands out over the regular NPCs. I guess this has made her an easy target.

Maybe this will change in ME3 or something, if BW tweaks her look (higher res like everyone else) and give her some imba skillset like FBG+SquadCryo or whatever.

Or...dat ass?:innocent:

That would help, lol

ATM she's the homeliest of Shep's potential flames... I mean, all that physical training with nothing to show for it..

[Estelindis]

Excellent defence of Ashley, V-rex.  I agree with you wholeheartedly.  I think that those who decry Ashley as a closed-minded religious fanatic simply because she has expressed a belief in a higher being show that they are very closed-minded themselves.

Code_R wrote...

If she was a male character I doubt any of you would be getting so annoyed about this =P

You're not serious, right?  After all the flak Kaidan has gotten for being an open, tolerant guy who does *not* have issues, Ashley would somehow be better off in the fandom if she was male?  I actually think she'd be treated even worse.

DominusVita wrote...

Let's just add richard dawkins as a squadmate and call it even.

...And to think I believed *nothing* could ever deter me from buying ME3.   

[Killjoy Cutter]

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

Selenora wrote...

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

Ash doesn't deserve the hate she gets.

Her only real problems are objective - she's generally a little too plain gamewise and lookswise, since her abilities in ME1 are not that useful compared to the others (no cc powers), and in terms of looks she barely stands out over the regular NPCs. I guess this has made her an easy target.

Maybe this will change in ME3 or something, if BW tweaks her look (higher res like everyone else) and give her some imba skillset like FBG+SquadCryo or whatever.

Or...dat ass?:innocent:

That would help, lol

ATM she's the homeliest of Shep's potential flames... I mean, all that physical training with nothing to show for it..

And never mind that all that physical training means that Ash wouldn't look like Miranda "from that angle". 

[Kim Shepard]

V-rex wrote...

She does though. Very quickly even.

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. In the conversation I got and that I am using as the primary example here, Ashley isn't asking Shepard about his opinion on the galaxy, she is asking Shepard about what his opinion is on her own beliefs. She asks if there are any issues about her believing in god, shortly afterwards she explains that the reason she asked is that she has had a lot of people who have been 'wierded out' by her faith.

I.E basically by letting it slip the fact that she believes in god, she's confiding something with you.

I get the idea we're both talking about different conversations. The conversation I'm thinking of is the first conversation on the Normandy between Ashley and a Sole Survivor Shepard, where religion gets brought up during the talk about Akuze. Which conversation does she normally talk about her religion if Shepard doesn't have this background? It might be much later into the game and a little shorter if some of her lines relate directly to Akuze. I have a save near the end of Eden Prime, so I'll check the conversation for my Sole Survivor and post it here.

Like I said, the Ashley I experienced never asked such questions. That whole 'look out into the galaxy and not believe in something line' is not directed at Shepard. Going back to the bit about working with people wierded out by her faith, Ashley contiued by saying that it was wierd that people thought she could work in space and not believe in a higher power.
Hence when she says 'how can you look out there and not believe in something' it is not her preaching to Shepard. It's her just saying that she finds it strange that people can stare at the awe and wonder of the universe and not at least have some kind of emotional response and just wonder a few things and have beliefs.

I never said she was preaching. Ashley says so little about her actual beliefs, aside from the fact that she has beliefs, for it to be considered preaching.

The line that I highlighted in bold is exactly what I was talking about. She finds it strange that people don't wonder about their beliefs when they look out at the galaxy, just because she does. Perhaps "she seemed to be in disbelief that Shepard didn't share her opinions" wasn't the best choice of words, but my point is the same.

Thing is, as the game progresses she gets more agreeable. Besides, she never came across like she was having difficulty believing that someone could disagree with her. She was very sure of her own opinions, for a time anyway later on she notices holes in them, but I never got the honest impression she was somehow in disbelief that someone could disagree with them.

That all depends on Shepard's dialogue choices. Obviously, her response to each of our Shepards was very different. I don't think my Shepard even agreed with her on one thing during all of their conversations. Sometimes, she did seem to understand their difference of opinion - in the conversation about her family, she did realize that someone without family might feel differently, but it was almost like an afterthought. She often acts like she thinks it's strange when Shepard doesn't share her opinions though (even though the conversations suggest she should be used to it), and that's what gave her such a bad first impression with me. Like I said, that Shepard who disagreed with her all the time was my first playthrough. I assume she leaves a much better impression on a Shepard who agrees with her most of the time.

[Bourne Endeavor]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

I more wonder, what's up with her Horizon statement, that Shepard is a god? Has she converted to polytheism or something?

I hypothesized it deriving from the belief a God transcends the very basic understanding of life as we know it. It or they are above and beyond our comprehension, as is their existence. Shepard did something that had been thought physically impossible. (S)he rose above death, an obstacle no other creature has overcome. One could argue the Christian religion and Jesus however we can technically only speculate the plausibility of such a story. It is taken on faith, not fact. Shepard is living and breathing before her. There is no faith to his/her existence, there is only fact. In essence, Shepard is more than life itself and transcended death. To her only a God could achieve such stature, and therefore made the reference.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 21 décembre 2010 - 09:38 .

[adriano_c]

V-rex wrote...

What shocks me, really, is how amazingly angry people can get about this. I mean its one thing to go ahead and list 'open belief in a higher power' as a negative quality but then to go ahead and overstate the degree of her faith really does shock me.

I'm not especially religious myself (okay, pretty much not at all), but this is quite a common thing that I've noticed here. The bashing, directly or otherwise, of religion and/or religious people, while generally being condescending little twerps about it in the process, that is. There's always an air of smugness. Always. That or they purposefully spin the bits and pieces they choose to critisize outright.

It's amusing, I guess, in that many can't be...rational...about religion.

As for how this relates to the Ashley character?

Well, if someone can't spot the excruciating irony of using someone's rather minimal "spirituality" (I guess this is the right term) as criteria for insults and dislike, while also branding said person a bigot or racist, then nothing more needs to be said.

[Zulu_DFA]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

I more wonder, what's up with her Horizon statement, that Shepard is a god? Has she converted to polytheism or something?

I hypothesized it deriving from the belief a God transcends the very basic understanding of life as we know it. It or they are above and beyond our comprehension, as is their existence. Shepard did something that had been thought physically impossible. (S)he rose above death, an obstacle no other creature has overcome.

I'd prefer to go on with the poetry version. Even Ashley can't be that stupid to think Shepard is Jesus v2.0. Besides, she says "a god".

[Xilizhra]

Well, if someone can't spot the excruciating irony of using someone's rather minimal "spirituality" (I guess this is the right term) as criteria for insults and dislike, while also branding said person a bigot or racist, then nothing more needs to be said.

The two don't really equate. Unlike species, religion is a choice.

[V-rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, if someone can't spot the excruciating irony of using someone's rather minimal "spirituality" (I guess this is the right term) as criteria for insults and dislike, while also branding said person a bigot or racist, then nothing more needs to be said.

The two don't really equate. Unlike species, religion is a choice.

True.

But even though species and religion are different things, bigotry is still bigotry. Accusing Ashley of being a bigot for being cautious of alien governments and then going ahead and outright hating her for being religious and making that the subject of hate and ridicule really does look hypocritical.

Because what they seem to be saying is that, while she is considered terrible for having a few trust issues with aliens and is horrible and must be booed and maligned for not being open minded and for being 'bigotted', THEY don't have to be open minded or respectful about her spiritual side and are fully entitled to be as aggressive and hteful about her beliefs as they want.
The same rules of open mindedness and respect don't apply to them. That religion isn't the same thing, so they are in their rights to be as close minded and harsh to judge as they want.


At least, that's how it always looks to me. A hell of a double standard really. So yes I understand that bigotry towards race and bigotry towards religion are different things but at the end of the day, both examples ARE bigotry and if you are going to condemn one but then actively practise the other, it feels kind of shallow.

Plus, as I've said before. Ashley's stance on aliens really isn't that bad, it's largely an overreaction by the fanbase rather than the character as she was written herself.

EDIT: By the way, hope I haven't offended you in any way. Wasn't my intention if I did.

Modifié par V-rex, 22 décembre 2010 - 01:19 .

[Xilizhra]

Because what they seem to be saying is that, while she is considered terrible for having a few trust issues with aliens and is horrible and must be booed and maligned for not being open minded and for being 'bigotted', THEY don't have to be open minded or respectful about her spiritual side and are fully entitled to be as aggressive and hteful about her beliefs as they want.

Likely because the aliens are new, unknown, and haven't had their full measure taken. They're unfamiliar and thus can't be adequately judged at this point in time. However, for people with issues with Abrahamic monotheism, they feel that they're sufficiently familiar with it to judge it and find it wanting. Combine the two and, well...

[Zulu_DFA]

Xilizhra wrote...

Unlike species, religion is a choice.

Bold statement.

[adriano_c]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, if someone can't spot the excruciating irony of using someone's rather minimal "spirituality" (I guess this is the right term) as criteria for insults and dislike, while also branding said person a bigot or racist, then nothing more needs to be said.

The two don't really equate. Unlike species, religion is a choice.

Nice try but that has absolutely no relevance to what I said.

-edit. Oh, I see V-rex had already covered it.

Modifié par adriano_c, 22 décembre 2010 - 05:16 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Because what they seem to be saying is that, while she is considered terrible for having a few trust issues with aliens and is horrible and must be booed and maligned for not being open minded and for being 'bigotted', THEY don't have to be open minded or respectful about her spiritual side and are fully entitled to be as aggressive and hteful about her beliefs as they want.

Likely because the aliens are new, unknown, and haven't had their full measure taken. They're unfamiliar and thus can't be adequately judged at this point in time. However, for people with issues with Abrahamic monotheism, they feel that they're sufficiently familiar with it to judge it and find it wanting. Combine the two and, well...

'New' doesn't mean they can't be judged. We have experiences with them with which we can judge them, and we have their own histories at which we can look.

Ash's concerns that the Council will defend its own interests over associate members is well grounded, starting from the very political structure of the Council itself (power cabal blocking any expansion of membership possible), continuing to the wonderful case study of the Krogan Rebellions (where centuries were spent allowing the Krogan to take non-Council colonies, but war promptly followed after a single Asari colony was taken), certainly repeated again in the Quarian genocide and Geth uprising, showed the intent of happening again just a few decades ago when the Turians prepared for a total war of subjugation against Humanity over what was in effect a misunderstanding, and continues through to the present day in a number of political contexts and examples.

Thirty years isn't 'too short a time' to get a measure of someone, especially when their behavior in that thirty years or so correlates with their continuous history. (Living history, in the case of the Asari.) Ash doesn't have some mistaken reading of the Council because she's never met an individual alien in person: Ash has a pretty grounded view of the Council based on being able to read the news and history.

[Xilizhra]

Ashley's issues with aliens go beyond the purely political; the ones that do are mostly anti-turian, owing to the First Contact War. Not that she's deeply speciesist, only mildly so.

[Dean_the_Young]

Where, pray tell, does she act in a speciest manner? Where does she give 'racist' thoughts or views of innate differences between aliens and humans in morality, capability, or worthiness?



Where is it ever a matter of 'because they're aliens,' and not a case of 'they're not us,' a viewpoint identical with nationalism?

[Sparda Stonerule]

"I believe in god, that going to be a problem?", "How can you look out there and not believe in... something?", and "I don't trust aliens".

None of those things seem bigoted they just seem honest. Besides given how amiable Ashley is to militaristic aliens she meets personally it doesn't seem to be a big deal. What she has an issue with is extremists. Ya know, Terra Firma, Cerberus. She also has an issue with cheaters like Schells. She is suspicious of suspicious looking aliens like Chorban and Jahled. The only time I ever saw Ashley have a big problem with an Alien was if you flirted with both Liara and Ashley.

Long story short, she doesn't deserve the hatred. I just think people have some bizarre hatred for a woman who will be upfront and honest with you without spinning details to fit her motives (like Miranda). It's all just silly. I would never romance her because of her cheesy poetry and seeming lack of any creativity, but I would never bash her for who she is.

[Eliantariel]

I cannot understand why anyone is able to hate a character at all. Of course there are some characters you like more and others less, but hating? After all it is a game and no character hurts you personally. This makes only sense for Shepard him- or herself if you role-play him in such a way and I suppose then he or she has a reason for it and in a new playthrough with an other Shepard it can be different.

But concerning Ashley: I must admit that I couldn't really like her in the beginning. I romanced Kaidan and took always only him and Garrus (because he was so fascinating) with me - so Ashley remained always on the ship. I went down to talk to her, but with her concerns about the aliens I felt a little bit offended. This is of course quite unfair to Ashley, because her concerns are definitely understandable, not because they are no humans, but they are strangers that Shepard does not really now - how will they react? What is their morality or principles?

Maybe it is only my impression, but I think in ME1 there was compared to ME2 more anti-alien mood displayed - as earthborn you learn that your former gang is now forming against aliens, there is this terra firma political group that is against aliens, your XO Pressly and Ashley are concerned about them (on board) and some in the alliance seem to have problems with them too (think of the inspector in ME1, I forgot his name). So maybe if you than talk to Ashely and she is concern you think some kind of "oh no - not her too".  

In a later playthrough were I did not romance anyone I always switched the squad members and now I must say I really like Ashley - I think she is cool and speaks her mind, but I am not going to romance her because I normally play only femsheps. 

If you take a character with you on the missions you get more information about him, his or her thoughts about things you encounter. And I think you get more attached to these characters, because they are with you, fighting with you, arguing with you about decisions...so for me I got the turn with Ashley only by deciding to take her along with me.

And I don't think it has really something to do with Ashleys religion if someone doesn't like her - the aliens (at least some of them or what we know about) have their religion too, like the believe in spirits (turians) or gods (Drell, Asari).

I think if someone decided not to like someone he/she just search for possible reasons to justify this. Which is nonsense, because first of all if you decide to like or not like a character is it your decision, you can share your reasons but that doesn't mean that this reason will work for someone else, and only because someone does not like a character, that doesn't mean that now every other person has to dislike it, too.

Modifié par Eliantariel, 23 décembre 2010 - 08:57 .

[Crunchyinmilk]

I really haven't noticed many comments regarding Ashley's religion... other than from people who go looking for it, so they can fume in outrage that people consider it an issue.

I'm honestly looking forward to a VS DLC with high hopes they DO address a little of Ashley's faith/belief with it.
In ME1 Ashley does admit she's religious and that she believes the spirit of her father is 'looking down' or can hear her, at least when she recites poetry at his grave all the time... yadda yadda yadda cut to ME2 and Shepard is literally rebuilt from 'meat and tubes', 2 years after they died.

That's just begging for a little 'is it really you in there Skipper?' from anyone who knew Shepard, but especially from someone who believes in the soul/afterlife and is a former lover. No one's really gone there yet, Ashley's my last hope. She handled religion in space well in ME1, in my opinion anyway. Hopefully Bioware can use her again to tickle such issues.

Modifié par Crunchyinmilk, 24 décembre 2010 - 01:23 .

[legbamel]

Kim Shepard wrote...
Big snip...

That all depends on Shepard's dialogue choices. Obviously, her response to each of our Shepards was very different. I don't think my Shepard even agreed with her on one thing during all of their conversations. Sometimes, she did seem to understand their difference of opinion - in the conversation about her family, she did realize that someone without family might feel differently, but it was almost like an afterthought. She often acts like she thinks it's strange when Shepard doesn't share her opinions though (even though the conversations suggest she should be used to it), and that's what gave her such a bad first impression with me. Like I said, that Shepard who disagreed with her all the time was my first playthrough. I assume she leaves a much better impression on a Shepard who agrees with her most of the time.

This was my issue with her as well: my Sheps don't have time for poetry and writing home and contemplating the nature of the universe.  There's ass to kick and a galaxy to save, dangit!  I usually shut her down pretty quickly which led to a lot less friendly banter which led to me not taking her anywhere which led straight to Virmire.  Sorry, Ash!  I don't hate her but I think the reason she comes across as xenophobic is those responses where she seems mildly surprised you don't think just like she does.  And as a pure solider I didn't find her skills as fun or useful as Kaidan's.