103 réponses à ce sujet

[Todd23]

Oghren can attack you to.

[LobselVith8]

The Water God wrote...

If all that stuff you said were true it would make Morrigan the most boring character ever. So the only thing she cares about is the best way to stop the blight?

You're putting words in my mouth. I said she advocates choices that enpower the Warden against the Blight, not her - the Anvil, the blood sacrifice, even the knowledge from the wyvern.

The Water God wrote...

Also how is killing the mages that you need assistance from helping to defeat the blight?

You again ignore that she can be persuaded to admit that she doubts what her mother told her and says she doesn't care (about whether the mages are spared or not). Yes, she finds the mages of the Tower weak - and nothing she actually says about them is inaccurate. Wynne is stupid enough to murder everyone because the Warden can simply agree with her.

The Water God wrote...

She would rather have the plain old templars who only have swords and shields as opposed to mages with actual magical abilitys. She  even gains plus 12 approval for suggesting to the Templars that Ivring and the remaining mages that survived should all be excuted on suspect for being a blood mage. My god, she even supports the Templars excuting innocent mages! Something that Gregoir was hesitant to do at first. What could possibly justify that?

Apparently, Wynne doesn't have the backbone to do anything about it - not even make a counter-suggestion, despite her willingness to murder me twice in the Tower for having an opinion. And why are you harping on Morrigan detesting the Circle mages? There's no reason she should care about them when they sees them as willing slaves of the Chantry who do nothing to change their lot in life.

[LobselVith8]

The Water God wrote...

Its not that she doesn't care about them its the fact she gains approval for killing them, theres alot of times when characters just don't give an opinon. Morrigan makes it clear she wants the Templars to kill all the mages in the tower!

When she's conversing with the Grey Warden from the Circle of Magi Origin, she can compare the lifestyle of the Circle to being like a "caged bird." She makes it clear in the beginning of the Wynne confrontation (before she can be persuaded) that she thinks its fitting that they be left to their fates because the Circle mages had allowed themselves to be enslaved to the Chantry. They basically do nothing to change their fate or the fate of every mage in Thedas who has to suffer under the regime of the Chantry because of Divine Ambrosia II, and segreating the mages had nothing to do with protecting anyone (see: The History of the Circle codex). Honestly, I can fully understand Morrigan's anger and disgust with them when she and her mother have been hunted their entire lives by templars who wanted to kill them simply for being illegal mages. Considering that "free mages" can be murdered based on suspicion alone (like the case of the Magnificent D'Sims, who was an elven "healer" who was murdered because templars thought he was a real mage) I'm not surprised that she sees the Circle mages as weak.

[Cobwebmaster]

errant_knight wrote...

Reika wrote...

Well, I always saw room for growth in Morrigan, but then again I saw that in all the companions after I actually talked with them long enough in the game. And I'd like to believe that Morrigan would try to do better than Flemeth after the time spent with the Warden and the others.

And I don't believe the OGB would be intrinsically evil, the impression I get with the Archdemons is that they were asleep and then get woken up Tainted. This is that soul being reborn without the Taint and a chance to start over.

Aside from a few characters in DAO, my Warden generally tried to give people a chance to start over and redeem themselves.

I don't think being asleep plays a part on it, just that they call to the darkspawn who find them and taint them. Morrigan obviously doesn't think that will happen when the soul is in a human body, but I'm not sure she can really know that, given that it doesn't seem to have every happened before. And that Flemeth is unlikely to have been entirely forthcoming.

Of course, that didn't stop my warden from thinking the risk was worth it to save herself and Alistair. It was a selfish choice, though.

We don't actually know what Flemeth is. From the tales Morrigan tells it could be that Flemeth is one of the OG's anyway and is trying to resurrect another without the darkspawn taint to create a power base from which she can expand her influence. Another OG in human/elven form? This will surely spell trouble. The best we could hope for is that the child would be neutral but with Morrigan's influence that is unlikely to be the case

The warden's influence would be positive but does the warden get the chance to exert any? Roll on Dragon Age 3 or a big expansion to Witchunt

[Satyricon331]

I think it's surprising that so many people consider Morrigan's personality to be such a huge factor in how the OGB will turn out. I would expect it would likely have a very well-defined personality all on its own. Not many children come into the world with a millenia-old soul that already experienced life. (Assuming Thedas lacks reincarnation, anyway!) Morrigan's motivation seems to be at least in part to preserve something ancient, which suggests the OGB would retain its self in some way. That consideration doesn't guarantee anything - perhaps it would be an ordinary child except for some preserved dragon power or something, but to the extent that the OBG's personality (the evil-or-not issue) is relevant to the Warden's consideration (meaning the chance it's not just going to be a super-spiffy vessel for Flemeth to move into, like Riloux suggested), it seems more likely it would have its own willful personality rather than simply reflect its mother's.



Whether the old Tevinter gods were "evil" or not is hard to say, of course. It's hard to accept Chantry propaganda and there's such little other information out there. There's nothing that really indicates they took much of any interest in human affairs if you don't believe the Chantry. I don't think an elf would be in a rush to resurrect a Tevinter god, but perhaps a human mage or a dwarf would be more willing (assuming they aren't totally ethically apathetic, in which case it'd be easy!).

[Satyricon331]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Water God wrote...

Its not that she doesn't care about them its the fact she gains approval for killing them, theres alot of times when characters just don't give an opinon. Morrigan makes it clear she wants the Templars to kill all the mages in the tower!

When she's conversing with the Grey Warden from the Circle of Magi Origin, she can compare the lifestyle of the Circle to being like a "caged bird." She makes it clear in the beginning of the Wynne confrontation (before she can be persuaded) that she thinks its fitting that they be left to their fates because the Circle mages had allowed themselves to be enslaved to the Chantry. They basically do nothing to change their fate or the fate of every mage in Thedas who has to suffer under the regime of the Chantry because of Divine Ambrosia II, and segreating the mages had nothing to do with protecting anyone (see: The History of the Circle codex). Honestly, I can fully understand Morrigan's anger and disgust with them when she and her mother have been hunted their entire lives by templars who wanted to kill them simply for being illegal mages. Considering that "free mages" can be murdered based on suspicion alone (like the case of the Magnificent D'Sims, who was an elven "healer" who was murdered because templars thought he was a real mage) I'm not surprised that she sees the Circle mages as weak.

When you see a caged bird, don't you think that murdering it b/c it's "caged" and "weak" would be a little evil?  I like Morrigan, and I think there's probably a modestly compassionate person underneath all of Flemeth's upbringing, but taking her as she is, prior to the Warden warming her heart up a bit, she does have some opinions that seem classically evil.  I don't think it's her defining characteristic, though.

[Brockololly]

Satyricon331 wrote...

I think it's surprising that so many people consider Morrigan's personality to be such a huge factor in how the OGB will turn out. I would expect it would likely have a very well-defined personality all on its own.
 

FWIW, in Witch Hunt, if you did the DR , Morrigan clearly says that the child is an innocent that knows nothing of its destiny. Which to me, makes me think that it likely is by most accounts a normal child, that doesn't realize he likely has super Old God powers.

[LobselVith8]

Satyricon331 wrote...

When you see a caged bird, don't you think that murdering it b/c it's "caged" and "weak" would be a little evil?  I like Morrigan, and I think there's probably a modestly compassionate person underneath all of Flemeth's upbringing, but taking her as she is, prior to the Warden warming her heart up a bit, she does have some opinions that seem classically evil.  I don't think it's her defining characteristic, though.

Morrigan makes it clear if you take her with you to the Circle Tower that she thinks they deserve it for doing nothing to free themselves from their oppressors. Considering she's been hunted her entire life by the templars while the mages of the Circle openly accept their imprisonment or slavement (depending on how you want to see it) then I don't blame her for being resentful. As for evil, I don't see Morrigan as evil - she's often pragmatic, and she can be mean, but that isn't evil. Kidnapping elven women to rape them ala Vaughan is evil. Thinking that mages who do nothing to free themselves from their oppressors and thinking they deserve their fate isn't evil.

[Satyricon331]

LobselVith8 - Favoring the mage's deaths when they can help you against the Blight isn't pragmatic in the slightest, and you haven't offered a reason to say that her position isn't evil. You say she feels that way because of her experience, but that matter doesn't bear on the question (not many of our feelings arise independently of our experiences, after all). Besides, in one of her talks, she says how Flemeth made a game of the templars and it doesn't seem like it was that big of a deal to her. She says it was only much later she realized their threat.



Brockololly - Thanks for the info! I've only had one playthrough so far and I didn't do the DR. The OGB wouldn't need its memories, though, to form a strong personality of its own, no?

[Cobwebmaster]

Satyricon331 wrote...

I think it's surprising that so many people consider Morrigan's personality to be such a huge factor in how the OGB will turn out. I would expect it would likely have a very well-defined personality all on its own. Not many children come into the world with a millenia-old soul that already experienced life. (Assuming Thedas lacks reincarnation, anyway!) Morrigan's motivation seems to be at least in part to preserve something ancient, which suggests the OGB would retain its self in some way. That consideration doesn't guarantee anything - perhaps it would be an ordinary child except for some preserved dragon power or something, but to the extent that the OBG's personality (the evil-or-not issue) is relevant to the Warden's consideration (meaning the chance it's not just going to be a super-spiffy vessel for Flemeth to move into, like Riloux suggested), it seems more likely it would have its own willful personality rather than simply reflect its mother's.

Whether the old Tevinter gods were "evil" or not is hard to say, of course. It's hard to accept Chantry propaganda and there's such little other information out there. There's nothing that really indicates they took much of any interest in human affairs if you don't believe the Chantry. I don't think an elf would be in a rush to resurrect a Tevinter god, but perhaps a human mage or a dwarf would be more willing (assuming they aren't totally ethically apathetic, in which case it'd be easy!).

What I think you seem to be saying is that Morrigan would exert very little influence on the child at all. We know (or do we?)that Dumat for example was an OG tainted by Darkspawn. That implies that it can be influenced or swayed. Whilst I agree that occasionally we get a glimpse of a  nicer Morrigan that is untainted by Flemeth's teachings for the most part her attitude towards self interest, self gratification, and scorn for every decent act is pretty damning and forms the basis for my and others suggestion that the child having Morrigan and whatever version of Flemeth is left as tutors will be potentially just as nasty as a darkspawn sponsored one

Mmm not sure about a dwarf being interested in invoking anything but the ancestor's favour but the prospect of a mage getting his hands on one would likely make them go weak at the knees. The Chantry's howling bigots would likely call for an exalted march against themselves if that came about
 

[LobselVith8]

Satyricon331 wrote...

LobselVith8 - Favoring the mage's deaths when they can help you against the Blight isn't pragmatic in the slightest, and you haven't offered a reason to say that her position isn't evil.

They're replaced by templars. I'm not saying I favor the decision, because I always persuade her against this viewpoint, and spare Irving so Dagna can become a member and lead to the establishment of an independent Circle in Orzammar, but I fail to see how Morrigan is evil for voicing an opinion. She's not the one murdering countless men, women, and children - that would be the Chantry.

Also, I never said her comment was a pragmatic decision - don't put words in my mouth. I said she's often pragmatic - as when we see her favoring sparing the Anvil to use golems against the darkspawn. Morrigan doesn't believe mages should be imprisoned and values her independence, and thinking that the same mages who have done nothing to free themselves from their oppressors deserve to aid from the Warden doesn't make her evil - she's been hunted down by templars all her life, fought for survival, and she resents how the Circle mages are doing nothing to get themselves out from under Chantry control. Morrigan didn't force Greagoir to call for the Rite, she didn't imprison those mages, she's voicing an opinion and as a mage she certainly has a right to in this situaiton - how is this evil by any measure?

Satyricon331 wrote...

You say she feels that way because of her experience, but that matter doesn't bear on the question (not many of our feelings arise independently of our experiences, after all). Besides, in one of her talks, she says how Flemeth made a game of the templars and it doesn't seem like it was that big of a deal to her. She says it was only much later she realized their threat.

You realize that she makes a big deal about her independence from the Chantry and disapproves if the Warden tries to give her the pro-Chantry bull**** right? And she openly admits that she was a child at the time and didn't realize the severity of the situation.

[Satyricon331]

Satyricon331 wrote...

LobselVith8 - Favoring the mage's deaths when they can help you against the Blight isn't pragmatic in the slightest, and you haven't offered a reason to say that her position isn't evil.

They're replaced by templars. I'm not saying I favor the decision, because I always persuade her against this viewpoint, and spare Irving so Dagna can become a member and lead to the establishment of an independent Circle in Orzammar, but I fail to see how Morrigan is evil for voicing an opinion. She's not the one murdering countless men, women, and children - that would be the Chantry.

Also, I never said her comment was a pragmatic decision - don't put words in my mouth. I said she's often pragmatic - as when we see her favoring sparing the Anvil to use golems against the darkspawn. Morrigan doesn't believe mages should be imprisoned and values her independence, and thinking that the same mages who have done nothing to free themselves from their oppressors deserve to aid from the Warden doesn't make her evil - she's been hunted down by templars all her life, fought for survival, and she resents how the Circle mages are doing nothing to get themselves out from under Chantry control. Morrigan didn't force Greagoir to call for the Rite, she didn't imprison those mages, she's voicing an opinion and as a mage she certainly has a right to in this situaiton - how is this evil by any measure?

I’m sorry, but I did not put words in your mouth. I was forestalling the possibility you might extend your claim of pragmatism to that case. And yes, advocating evil choices is evil, except perhaps in unusual circumstances, like its being necessary to tricking someone into not doing something bad, etc.

Satyricon331 wrote...

You say she feels that way because of her experience, but that matter doesn't bear on the question (not many of our feelings arise independently of our experiences, after all). Besides, in one of her talks, she says how Flemeth made a game of the templars and it doesn't seem like it was that big of a deal to her. She says it was only much later she realized their threat.

You realize that she makes a big deal about her independence from the Chantry and disapproves if the Warden tries to give her the pro-Chantry bull**** right? And she openly admits that she was a child at the time and didn't realize the severity of the situation.

Your response here is confusing to me. Earlier you seemed to be suggesting that her experiences with the Templars that caused her to hate the Chantry attenuated the significance of her reaction to the Circle mages’ situation, but that argument is weaker given she didn’t realize the Templar situation’s severity.

Cobwebmaster wrote...

What I think you seem to be saying is that Morrigan would exert very little influence on the child at all. We know (or do we?)that Dumat for example was an OG tainted by Darkspawn. That implies that it can be influenced or swayed. Whilst I agree that occasionally we get a glimpse of a nicer Morrigan that is untainted by Flemeth's teachings for the most part her attitude towards self interest, self gratification, and scorn for every decent act is pretty damning and forms the basis for my and others suggestion that the child having Morrigan and whatever version of Flemeth is left as tutors will be potentially just as nasty as a darkspawn sponsored one

Mmm not sure about a dwarf being interested in invoking anything but the ancestor's favour but the prospect of a mage getting his hands on one would likely make them go weak at the knees. The Chantry's howling bigots would likely call for an exalted march against themselves if that came about

I was pointing out the possibility, which people hadn’t seemed to have considered. It’s not clear to me how the OGs’ susceptibility to the taint indicates a weak personality, but I agree being a mage would make the Warden more open to the DR. Ultimately there isn’t enough information to form any solid expectation, but an untainted OBG might be closer to OGs than to Morrigan & Flem. I’m not saying it will be, but it’s something people didn’t seem to consider.

Modifié par Satyricon331, 29 janvier 2011 - 04:26 .

[LobselVith8]

The Water God wrote...
Actually killing the weak kinda is evil. In fact that like one of the major traits of a villian. 

Is Morrigan killing them? No. Is the Chantry killing them? Yes. Morrigan can be persuaded that she could have been one of them if things were different - and has no problem or disapproval when the Warden aids the mages of the Circle. Does she initially think they deserve their fate? Yes. I fail to see how this makes her evil when she's been taught by Flemeth all her life, and those teachings have shaped her. Besides voicing an opinion and thinking mages who do nothing to liberate themselves from the Chantry deserve their fate, I don't see the evil in her having an opinion. Are the mages of the Circle evil for doing nothing while illegal mages like Morrigan were hunted down, then murdered brutally by the Chantry? Should Morrigan care about the same people who would do nothing or (in Wynne's case) murder her for being an apostate?

The Water God wrote...

Also she approves of all the mages getting slaughtered after the battle with Uldred. She doesn't give a damn about anyone but herself.

That must be why she continually favors choices that enpower the Warden, not herself.

Satyricon331 wrote...

I’m sorry, but I did not put words in your mouth. I was forestalling the possibility you might extend your claim of pragmatism to that case.

In other words, you were putting words in my mouth. Try not to do it again.

Satyricon331 wrote...

And yes, advocating evil choices is evil, except perhaps in unusual circumstances, like its being necessary to tricking someone into not doing something bad, etc.

Evil choices according to who? The decision with the Anvil and the blood ritual both enpower the Warden, she doesn't see the point in aiding Redcliffe when they're supposed to be stopping the impending apocalypse, and she has no love for mages who do nothing to get themselves out from under the Chantry's thumb. The golems brought a hundred years of peace for the dwarves, health can mean the difference between life and death, and spending time in Redcliffe could have hypothetically delayed things until they were too late - no one in the story knows this is a game and the Warden can get side-tracked with no negative results. As for the mages, seeing that Morrigan merely advocates leaving them to their fate, I fail to see how she's "evil." People on this thread seem to equate having an opinion or being mean with evil.

Look, I'm not saying that Morrigan isn't mean at times, but none of her actions speak to me as evil. Mean? Yes. Evil? I see what Vaughan does to the women as evil, but I don't honestly see Morrigan dismissing mages who openly accept Chantry control (in her mind) when she's had to fight tooth and nail to survive against the Chantry and its templars since she was a child as evil. Given that she can be persuaded to realize that she could have been one of them, I fail to see how she's evil.

Satyricon331 wrote...

Your response here is confusing to me. Earlier you seemed to be suggesting that her experiences with the Templars that caused her to hate the Chantry attenuated the significance of her reaction to the Circle mages’ situation, but that argument is weaker given she didn’t realize the Templar situation’s severity.

She didn't when she was a child (as she admits, she didn't realize the danger they were in), and she's still evading them as an adult (as she reveals to Alistair when she discusses templars hunting her when she was visiting Lothering). How is this confusing you?

Cobwebmaster wrote...

What I think you seem to be saying is that Morrigan would exert very little influence on the child at all. We know (or do we?) that Dumat for example was an OG tainted by Darkspawn. That implies that it can be influenced or swayed. Whilst I agree that occasionally we get a glimpse of a nicer Morrigan that is untainted by Flemeth's teachings for the most part her attitude towards self interest, self gratification, and scorn for every decent act is pretty damning and forms the basis for my and others suggestion that the child having Morrigan and whatever version of Flemeth is left as tutors will be potentially just as nasty as a darkspawn sponsored one

"Scorn for every decent act?" You must be forgetting how she adovcates releasing Sten and Jowan, how she has no problem with aiding the Mages Collective (which saves the lives of mages), and Gaider's comments that she offers the dark ritual because she cares about the Warden (which was drawn by a fan who depicted the scene after Gaider made the comments).

Cobwebmaster wrote...

Mmm not sure about a dwarf being interested in invoking anything but the ancestor's favour but the prospect of a mage getting his hands on one would likely make them go weak at the knees. The Chantry's howling bigots would likely call for an exalted march against themselves if that came about

Yeah, because the Chantry would have no problem actually declaring an Exalted March on the only civilization that can provide them (and their drug addicted soldiers) with lyrium. There's very little doubt in my mind that the Chantry would ever win against battle hardened dwarves, golems, and free mages if they were ever stupid enough to try.

Cobwebmaster wrote...

I was pointing out the possibility, which people hadn’t seemed to have considered. It’s not clear to me how the OGs’ susceptibility to the taint indicates a weak personality, but I agree being a mage would make the Warden more open to the DR. Ultimately there isn’t enough information to form any solid expectation, but an untainted OBG might be closer to OGs than to Morrigan & Flem. I’m not saying it will be, but it’s something people didn’t seem to consider.

I think it's an issue of trust. My elven mage Warden trusted her. Saved Redcliffe, never did the blood ritual with Caldrius, got aid from the Circle to rescue Connor (as Morrigan openly suggests when she's brought to the castle), but it was all a matter of trust. That's why he trusted her with the dark ritual.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 29 janvier 2011 - 07:50 .

[LobselVith8]

The Water God wrote...

Its pretty pointless to argue Morrigan is any better than the Chantry. Persuaded or not she still takes place in the killing when you agree and thats proof enough for me.

She defends herself against Wynne, who tries to murder the Warden because Morrigan had the audacity to have an opinion and be an illegal mage. Wynne tends to do that.

[Elthunder]

In my opinion she isn't evil, neither is the child probably, her attitude comes from how she has been raised, if you got her approval etc in Origins, she will let you join her in the end of the Module.

She has a special attitude, but my bet is that she is trying to do something good
(if it will be of a benefit for the rest of the world is another thing, but I don't belive she will release some kind of new treat either.)
and I don't think that she would ever make the child take the wrong path, only the creators can know for sure what will happen later on though, and as I said if you have gotten her approval earlier on, she will invite you to join her to whereever she is raising the child.

Modifié par Elthunder, 29 janvier 2011 - 09:28 .

[LobselVith8]

The Water God wrote...

Wynnes an idiot. That doesn't knock down the fact that Morrigan approves of killing mages. Which is pretty sick in my I think.

I won't disagree with you about Wynne, but voicing an opinion (which is all Morrigan is doing) is hardly the same as Wynne's decision to endanger the mages and children in her company because Morrigan dared to voice a negative opinion about the Circle, or asking her apprentice to return to the same Circle that nearly murdered him when he was fourteen years old. Morrigan is voicing an opinion based on her perception of the Circles mages being "cattle" to their Chantry "masters," and it's an opinion that the Warden can help change, unlike Sten's view of mages as "evil beasts."

[Collider]

I have this idea that Morrigan is trying to use the old god to change the world for the better. Her hardline stance against those she perceives as "weak" is both the product of her savage upbringing, and that she views certain people as undeserving of the world she seeks to create.

[sevalaricgirl]

The missing ritual scene was modded and can be put back in the game. I don't know why they cut it because I think many who see her as evil would probably change their minds. She tells Alistair, when confronted, that she's only had one friend in her life, the warden. She doesn't want the warden to die. She says at the gates of Denerim, go and live a happy life. She begins to care about the warden and if female with high enough approval considers her a sister. Who knows what is going to happen with the baby. When I play as a mage, I agree with Morrigan completely. I hate the chantry and the templars and if it weren't for being conscripted into the GWs, I would have been an apostate too.

[Kappa Neko]

I love how people are so quick to slap the evil label on everything....

What's "evil" supposed to mean anyway? Isn't that a religious term used to agitate people against everybody who doesn't fit into the picture? Oh wait.......now THAT would actually make Morrigan and her baby evil, yes ;D

Anyway, to me evil doesn't exist. Not even in video games. And I don't believe Morrigan is supposed to be evil. I've got to admit, though, that I think BW didn't write her all that well. Something's off about her personality. I can't quite pinpoint it. Morrigan reminds me a lot of ME's Jack. Only that Jack's personality makes perfect sense.

To me the short glimpses we get of Morrigan's feelings come across wrong. Being somehow very touched to be given a gift? Really?? Why? She hides her feelings so well otherwise. I don't buy it, her being taken aback by something as trivial as a small gift. There were many more moments I thought were out of character.

Unless everything she does is an act. That's what I found most interesting about her. Always wondering if I'm just being played by her. I guess that's what Morrigan is all about. I've been wondering if BW aimed at making us trust her, falling for her act just as everybody else in the game is tricked by her. I loved how talking to her made you think that maybe there's a misunderstood hero beneath all that mock indifference towards the world, only to have her suggest the DR at the end. Only we never got to find out what she's planning exactly. Disappointed me a great deal.

So yes, I believe she' very manipulative and craves power. But even that doesn't make her evil.

Morrigan comes across quite cruel at times. But at least that part of her personality makes perfect sense. This survival of the fittest philosophy is the reason she manages to survive (true for Jack as well). She's been hunted all her life. She was raised by Flemeth! Given that background she's surprisingly friendly towards the Warden. Then again maybe she only seems that way because she wants something.

My first impression of the conversation about the DR was: ohhh no, I'm not letting myself be tricked! The way this scene is done strongly suggests that Morrigan played you the whole time. She only befriended you to get what she wanted. Initially. But I also believe that we're supposed to see that she does care, too, in her own way. She thinks you both benefit from the deal.

I would agree with LobselVith8: she's practical. She's not cruel on purpose. Her world view is harsh. She hates people who let themselves be victimized, yes. But she does have a point there. Her behaviour violates my moral code. Yet I find myself liking her a great deal because there are actually quite a few things I agree with her about.

Most people ARE like cattle. Morrigan chose not to be a part of an oppressive society, obediently doing what other people tell her to do. She's the character that questions everything. I like that a lot about her. Like her reminding the Warden that all we know about mages is what the Chantry preaches.

Morrigan wants to bring about a new world. And judging by her reluctance to explain what exactly that means, it wouldn't be a pleasant change. She knows people would resist it because people are stupid and afraid of change. But Morrigan believes this change will be for the good of the people. They just need to be forced into it.

Of course, that new world order would benefit her most of all. Morrigan loves power. But I guess she would say she's being practical there again. She'll free the world and in return will be rewarded for her accomplishment. Only fair, isn't it? ;0)

So no, I don't believe her god child is evil. But I think it's dangerous. Because a) we don't know if Morrigan actually knows what the heck she's doing there and we don't know what a very powerful Morrigan will be like. There's great potential for corruption in her IMO.

[Satyricon331]

LobselVith8 wrote...

In other words, you were putting words in my mouth. Try not to do it again.

The phrase “putting words in my mouth” refers to claiming someone took positions he/she didn’t – a retrospective issue. What I did was prospective – the standard debate technique of forestalling possible counterarguments, which didn’t involve saying they were “in your mouth.” I’m not going to dump ordinary, reasonable argument techniques for no reason.

LobselVith8 wrote…

Evil choices according to who? […] As for the mages, seeing that Morrigan merely advocates leaving them to their fate, I fail to see how she's "evil." People on this thread seem to equate having an opinion or being mean with evil.



Look, I'm not saying that Morrigan isn't mean at times, but none of her actions speak to me as evil. Mean? Yes. Evil?

Yes, having certain opinions is evil, such as the dehumanization of a group of people.

Advocating “leaving them to their fate” is something the vast majority of moral systems would condemn. It’s hard to get around it since her own advocacy is an action, which problematizes the relevance of the action-inaction distinction that the phrase “leaving them to their fate” appears to invoke. The only systems I can think of that would be ok with her behavior would be some fringe neo-Kantian systems that rely extensively on something called “bivalent” analysis of duties, and of course Objectivism.

LobselVith8 wrote…

She didn't when she was a child (as she admits, she didn't realize the danger they were in), and she's still evading them as an adult (as she reveals to Alistair when she discusses templars hunting her when she was visiting Lothering). How is this confusing you?

Oh, it was just that you had referred specifically to when she was a child, the time least helpful for your arguments.

Kappa Neko wrote…

What's "evil" supposed to mean anyway? Isn't that a religious term used to agitate people against everybody who doesn't fit into the picture? Oh wait.......now THAT would actually make Morrigan and her baby evil, yes ;D



Anyway, to me evil doesn't exist. Not even in video games.

I like this post a lot. Actually I don’t think the term “evil” is very meaningful or informative in the real world, but for video games I follow the general usage, which seems to make it mean “really not-good.”