33 réponses à ce sujet

[expanding panic]

Why do a lot of people assume the Morrigan's "God Child" is going to be evil. Maybe I dont want to admit it because I like her but I can't see her doing something that would out the world into danger again after a blight. SHe knows what it is like and all of that because she went through it with the warden. Unless she doesn't realize their will be a consequence so drastic. I believe she even says That the darkness in the soul will go away. Not in those exact words but something to that affect. Is it just the achievement award saying A dark Ritual?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Because most people are stuck into the old good/evil polarity, so they still see things in black/white and good/evil terms. Not many can appreciate that whole large, unexplored frontier called "grey".

[Moondoggie]

People have different opinions of Morrigan some think she is evil and manipulative and wants to use ths child for bad things. Others not so much.



For me Morrigan is one of the most intriguing and layered characters in the DA universe. She takes time to get to know and she can seem evil but the way she was raised probably made her think the way she does.



Also i think many people assume because it;s the spirit from the archdemon that the kid will be an Archdemon which is not the case since the taint makes an old god into an Archdemon once the spirit is free it'll just be the old gods soul.



There is some manipulation going on between Flemeth and Morrigan though i am not one that thinks their intentions are evil.

[KnightofPhoenix]

One can legitimately not trust Morrigan to give her what is presumably a very powerful being for her to raise on her own (I love her and I don't completely trust her for this, hence me using the mirror). One can also think she is lying and hiding important information from you.

As for whether the baby itself would be "evil". If you believe the Chantry and Elven view, the Old Gods were not that benevolent and it's possible that the child will become like he once was. The Old Gods were the ones who taught the Tevinter magisters blood magic and gave them the power to oppress some people. They also gave them the power to build an impressive civilization.

Or it's possible that the child will be able, via the song, to command the darkspawn, albeit in a more intelligent fashion than the other archdemons. Or one can believe that the child can still be corrupted afterward, even if he was "purified". The Darkspawn are attracted to the song, they will probably want to seek the Child.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 décembre 2010 - 07:11 .

[expanding panic]

There is some manipulation going on between Flemeth and Morrigan though i am not one that thinks their intentions are evil. [/quote]

I have to agree with you on this. I don't see the either one of them as wanting to do anything to destroy the world or put it in harms way. I'm not sure on what Morrigan wants but I think Flemeth just doesn't want to die. Flemeth may go to extreme lengths to stay alive but she's not trying to destroy the world.


I disagree I think we can trust Morrigan. She hasn't done anything to make you believe she has lied to you or to make her not trust you. She a little hard to talk to but as far as we know she hasn't done anything evil. All she did was leave after the battle which she said she would. You also have the option to try and hunt her down and raise the kid with her. 

Modifié par expanding panic, 19 décembre 2010 - 07:14 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

expanding panic wrote...
I disagree I think we can trust Morrigan.

I never said you can't. I trust her too, for the most part.
Others, however, can distrust her as well, for hiding her intentions and for suggesting acts that many would think are unethical among other things.

And you haven't played Witch Hunt yet I presume?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 décembre 2010 - 07:20 .

[expanding panic]

And you haven't played Witch Hunt yet I presume?

[/quote]

Yea I played it once. I don't remember it to much. What don't I remember that you think I should?

[Wulfram]

Whether Morrigan is evil or not, she's not someone I'd trust to decide the fate of the world. And since she refuses to tell you anything useful about her plan, that's what she's asking.

[NuclearSerendipity]

For me it wasn't a matter of trusting, in the sense of believing she was telling the truth. In that sense, I mostly believed her: at least, I didn't think she meant ill with the child, even if she wanted to keep her intentions unspecified. I did believe she was telling the truth, I just didn't think that it was a good idea, mainly for the reasons Knight of Phoenix pointed out. Things could go terribly wrong, no matter what her intentions were - and I found it highly questionable that things wouldn't get out of hand, that she would manage to keep things under control - Flemeth herself (at least apparently) didn't succeed at keeping Morrigan within the road she had traced for her. So what reason is there to believe that Morrigan would always be capable of influence the child in a manner that he wouldn't ever become a threat? If she was not ill-intended - and I didn't believe her to be - I did believe she was too self-confident about her abilities to influence or at least foreseen the child's ultimate fate. So even though my character did love her (and also followed her through the mirror at WH), he didn't do the Dark Ritual.

[Moondoggie]

Technically Morrigan is following the path laid out by Flemeth. If you press her on how she knows about the ritual she tells you that the plan all along was for her to bed you and to perform the ritual. Although she may have other reasons to keep you alive by then such as friendship or being in love with the warden.



I wonder why Flemeth knows about such a ritual and protects the grey warden treaties. Perhaps she was once in love with a grey warden herself?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Moondoggie wrote...
I wonder why Flemeth knows about such a ritual and protects the grey warden treaties. Perhaps she was once in love with a grey warden herself?

I doubt that, somehow. Flemmeth is pure business/practicality, I do not think she ever loved anyone or anything once she became the abomination. They Grey Wardens have something she wants. That's why she has the treaties. Where the ritual came from is unknown, but given that she is an ancient abomination, (or, according to Morrigan in WH, much, much more than that) her possesing such a ritual isn't terribly myserious.

[Avilia]

I don't think the OGB itself would be inherently evil. I think its too powerful a being to put in the control of Morrigan and possibly Flemeth. If there had been another way to save it I may have taken it.



I'm interested to see if we find out more about Flemeth in DA2. I'd love to know exactly what she wanted it for.

[BelgarathMTH]

I don't think Morrigan is evil, and that's precisely why I only feel a small amount of guilt doing the dark ritual to save myself and Alistair.

I think she honestly believes that she can somehow control the child's power or at least shape it in some way that is beneficial to her personal agenda, whatever that may be; but I don't believe for a minute that she wants to increase pain and suffering in the world or start another Blight. I think she probably has similar reasons to Flemeth for wanting power, mostly having to do with self-preservation and protection.

Speaking of Flemeth, I not only don't believe she's evil, I also don't believe that she plans to hurt Morrigan, so I always spare her in my game. I think she planted the Dark Grimoire and all those legends about possessing her daughters so she could test what Morrigan would do. Many of the things she says after being spared a fight support my ideas, things like "It will be interesting to see what she does with her freedom. Will you at least grant this to an old woman?"

I think that Flemeth is one of the Old Gods, and that she is motivated mostly by not wanting to be bored with her endless eons-long existence, so she sleeps with different men and has these daughters as a kind of play. She doesn't like Blights, because they interfere with her play, so she surreptitiously supports the Wardens. Remember that the PC Warden and Alistair are only alive because Flemeth rescues them from Ostagar as a deus ex machina.

I too will be interested to see if they do something with Morrigan, her child, and/or Flemeth in DA2.

Modifié par BelgarathMTH, 19 décembre 2010 - 09:08 .

[ejoslin]

What I would like to know is if the soul of the OGB can be corrupted by the darkspawn again, leading to another blight. That would be something, being able to control where/when the next blight happens. Or to have two archdemons fight each other...

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Good question. depends on whether or not the kid is born immune to the taint. Morrigan does draw some of the taint into the kid to attract the archdemon's soul, so the kid could possibly be born with some Warden-like immunity to it. I actually think this was discussed months ago, though i don't remember what the consensus was.



If not, then yeah, I think the kid could become recorrupted if it is born into the normal body of a child.

[Brockololly]

ejoslin wrote...

What I would like to know is if the soul of the OGB can be corrupted by the darkspawn again, leading to another blight. That would be something, being able to control where/when the next blight happens. Or to have two archdemons fight each other...

I think in part it also depends on whether or not the OGB emits the Song of the Old Gods that attracts the darkspawn in the first place? Or is that just something that attracts the hibernating Old Gods trapped underground?

Because it would seem that there has never been an untrapped, untainted Old God out and about since there have been darkspawn around.

[NuclearSerendipity]

Moondoggie wrote...

Technically Morrigan is following the path laid out by Flemeth. If you press her on how she knows about the ritual she tells you that the plan all along was for her to bed you and to perform the ritual. Although she may have other reasons to keep you alive by then such as friendship or being in love with the warden.

I wonder why Flemeth knows about such a ritual and protects the grey warden treaties. Perhaps she was once in love with a grey warden herself?

Yes, I know, but doing the ritual might be only part of what Flemeth had planned for her; it might be that other things didn't go as planned, for example if your Warden kills Flemeth (then again, it might not - it may be that it was what Flemeth planned all along, has someone already has eloquently pointed out). I meant that it might be the case that Morrigan didn't always act according to the plan, and perhaps that was enough to ruin or at least compromise it. And if Flemeth couldn't ultimately control Morrigan, why would Morrigan be capable of warranting that the kid wouldn't represent any serious threat later on?

Either way, I just find it too questionable to think that one could assure that a kid like that wouldn't ever become a serious threat - whether this assurance came from some sort of control (which would be itself ethically questionable), influence, or mere foresight on the kid's developments.

As for protecting the treaties, I think it's mostly about the fact that the Grey Wardens are too important to fight the Blights to not be able to call for allies... No matter Flemeth's intentions, as she points out, it's not like she would want the world to be destroyed or taken by the darkspawn either.

Modifié par NuclearSerendipity, 19 décembre 2010 - 11:55 .

[Ollymandias]

Evil? Maybe.

An ****? Probably.

Morrigan's upbringing suggests she won't be a great mother. For all she claims to be a free thinker, she clings very tightly to what Flemeth instilled in her as the 'proper' way to behave- right down to arranging a hit on her mother. Unless she discovers a newfound capability for independent decision-making, she will probably make remarkably poor parenting decisions leading to an emotionally stunted and/or obnoxious old god baby.

Modifié par Ollymandias, 20 décembre 2010 - 08:07 .

[Ymladdych]

My Warden's perspective:

She pities Morrigan and tries to connect with her, but finds herself very disturbed by a few of the things she hears.  (Men are stupid and easy to trick; I'm manipulative and I use it; if people can't help themselves, then they deserve to die; power is all that matters; etc.)  Along these lines, even if Morrigan doesn't state her philosophies, my Warden can glean them from the suggestions she makes or actions she disappoves of.

Plus, my mage loved the Circle: Irving was the father she never had and she was respected there.  She had a good life there, and that was her family.  What does Morrigan say when they go to save the Tower?  Circle mages are stupid sheep and they deserve to be killed for it.  That doesn't exactly endear her to my Warden.

Lastly, my Warden was in love with Alistair, and as everyone knows, she's very hateful towards him.  What woman becomes "best friends" with another woman who's actively evil to the love of her life?  I'm sure they exist, but my Warden wasn't one of them.

The end result?  My Warden never felt any inclination to "get to know her better" or "peal away the layers."  The fact that Morrigan had a bad childhood ultimately doesn't matter; knowing that someone had an abused childhood doesn't suddenly make an unpleasant person into a pleasant one.  It can give you more sympathy for their situation, but sympathy alone will rarely ever change someone's personality.  Plus, my Warden isn't a shrink and she's got more important things to do.

So, ultimately, I got her as friendly as I could with honest dialogue, but that was a few points shy of getting her personal quest.  I could have given her a gift to get it, but the way I see it...my Warden would never do so because she really doesn't like the woman.  

Then, out of the blue, Morrigan makes her offer.  Not a good sign, as far as my Warden is concerned, but she asks Loghain what he thinks because it's *his* neck on the line and Morrigan does make a good point about the possibility they might never make it to the archdemon.  Loghain says, "No.  Bad idea."  So my Warden goes back to Morrigan and says, "Sorry, not gonna happen."

Morrigan then leaves my Warden with a parting threat.  Another bad sign.  So yeah, when my Warden finally tracks her down to ask questions, and she finds Morrigan about to enter a portal using magics that she's stolen from a clan of elfs, and she's being protected by dragon cultists...she makes an offer to Morrigan: information for your life.  Morrigan remains petulant and tries to point her finger at Flemeth.  The last bad sign my Warden needs to feel certain that Morrigan is up to something dicey, and she makes an effort to see that Morrigan doesn't reach the other side of that portal.  (She fails, of course, but she had to try.)

Modifié par Ymladdych, 20 décembre 2010 - 04:08 .

[expanding panic]

Ymladdych wrote...



Lastly, my Warden was in love with Alistair, and as everyone knows, she's very hateful towards him.  What woman becomes "best friends" with another woman who's actively evil to the love of her life?  I'm sure they exist, but my Warden wasn't one of them.

\\

So you love Alister but you chose Loghan over him? Why? Or did I  miss understamd

[Reika]

I never really thought of Morrigan being actively evil towards Alistair. She certainly mocked him and he did the same right back at her. Is Morrigan a nice person? Not really, but she's grown up in a harsh environment and that will shape a person's outlook on life.



And my main or canon warden is an HNF, was it hard for her to convince Alistair to do the DR? Yes, but at the same time she'd lost so much that she decided to go for the selfish option of taking Morrigan up on her offer.

[Persephone]

Ymladdych wrote...

Lastly, my Warden was in love with Alistair, and as everyone knows, she's very hateful towards him.  What woman becomes "best friends" with another woman who's actively evil to the love of her life?  I'm sure they exist, but my Warden wasn't one of them.

You think her snide comments and their banters are her being evil? I remember him giving as well as he got, most of the time. And he is no better to a male Warden who happens to love Morrigan: Calling her a biatch, whining at Wynne that Morri is a baaaaaad influence etc. Nothing of this is being "evil", it's simply bad chemistry. It's not like Morrigan throws a party if you allow Alistair to be executed.

[Ymladdych]

expanding panic wrote...
So you love Alister but you chose Loghan over him? Why? Or did I  miss understamd

Well, the Loghain decision was forced metagaming because I wanted to import Awakening and DLC choices without a handwave that retcons a DR.  The last I'd read informally from one of the devs a couple of months ago, although they were still working on it, was that you can only import 1 save file, so if you want complete customization without the DR, you have to spare Loghain (or let Alistair kill the AD).  ***Edit - this has in fact changed, per a recent dev interview ***

So believe me, if it wasn't for that, my natural RP perspective would have been for Alistair to open a can on Loghain's wrinkly butt.

Even so, I would have sacrificed the customization options if I couldn't think of an acceptable RP rationalization for this decision.  Although my Warden's characterization is more nuanced in my head than this, here's the the quick bottom-line:

She saw the decision to spare or not spare Loghain as having bigger things at stake than Alistair's need for immediate vengeance.  And yep, it broke her heart when Alistair had his meltdown.  When they went back to camp that night and Alistair didn't return, she watched Loghain across the fire and decided to cut his throat while he slept.  She was going to leave everything behind to look for Alistair and beg his forgiveness; she hated being a Warden and never volunteered for any of the sacrifices she'd had to make since getting conscripted.

What stopped her?  Wynne.  (I'd held off on having the "I'll never have a normal life, will I?" dialogue for that very reason.)  And in the end, it was sparing Loghain and Alistair's abandonment that allowed her to finally embrace her destiny as a Grey Warden.  That was her personal story arc.  *nods*  Kind of a sad one, too, because in Awakening she vanishes alone with nobody to mourn her loss.

Modifié par Ymladdych, 25 décembre 2010 - 04:11 .

[Ymladdych]

Persephone wrote...
You think her snide comments and their banters are her being evil? I remember him giving as well as he got, most of the time. And he is no better to a male Warden who happens to love Morrigan: Calling her a biatch, whining at Wynne that Morri is a baaaaaad influence etc. Nothing of this is being "evil", it's simply bad chemistry. It's not like Morrigan throws a party if you allow Alistair to be executed.

I didn't say she was evil for that, did I?  I said my character disliked her for it, which would be a natural response for a lot of people.  Consequently, most people, when they find someone to be as offputting as my Warden found Morrigan, won't realistically take the time to "get to know them better" or "peel away the layers."   I would say hello in the morning to maintain a functional work relationship, but I wouldn't buy her gifts and I definitely wouldn't have any sincere concern about, "Why is she so messed up?"

Which brings me to my point from before...I had to clock in to work so I was typing fast and it probably came out wrong... Someone having a messed up childhood environment might make you feel badly for them, but that doesn't mean you'll find them any more pleasant to be around.  Ultimately, it doesn't matter *why* someone develops a predatory personality...what matters is that they have a predatory personality, and Morrigan absolutely has a predatory personality.

As for hating Alistair...okay?  I don't care...hate him all you want.  Execute him, by all means.  I can understand why people might not like him.  Then again, Alistair shows compassion for people other than the Warden and he's not the one asking for an Old God's soul.