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[maxernst]

Addai67 wrote...

I believe Anora was modeled after Queen Elizabeth.

I think there are sound historical reasons why most of the more famous woman monarchs in our history didn't marry (Elizabeth, Catherine the Great).  Admittedly, Ferelden appears to be substantially less sexist than our pre-industrial world, so the Queen might not be forced into a subordinate position by marriage.  Still, choosing a husband for a sitting monarch opens all kinds of potential problems:  marrying somebody in another royal line could result in the throne passing to a foreign dynasty at some point, marrying a noble in your own country (like the Couslands) could cause issues with other powerful families (the Guerins?).  It's interesting that Celene's not married either.  Had she married Cailan, it seems likely it would have been like a Ferdinand/Isabella pairing with Celene and Orlais assuming the dominant role in the dual monarchy.

[Addai]

Royal marriages are tricky no matter who you are, male or female. You can't blame Elizabeth I for avoiding the whole shebang, after the upbringing she had. And Anora is uptight about ending up with another Cailan. Still, by not biting the bullet, she lets her influence extend only one generation, and misses out on the political opportunity a marriage could have brought.

[Wulfram]

Well, not having a blood heir puts her in a position to choose her successor, and thus have more influence over Ferelden's future than simply trusting in the lottery of birth.

[mousestalker]

maxernst wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I believe Anora was modeled after Queen Elizabeth.

I think there are sound historical reasons why most of the more famous woman monarchs in our history didn't marry (Elizabeth, Catherine the Great).  Admittedly, Ferelden appears to be substantially less sexist than our pre-industrial world, so the Queen might not be forced into a subordinate position by marriage.  Still, choosing a husband for a sitting monarch opens all kinds of potential problems:  marrying somebody in another royal line could result in the throne passing to a foreign dynasty at some point, marrying a noble in your own country (like the Couslands) could cause issues with other powerful families (the Guerins?).  It's interesting that Celene's not married either.  Had she married Cailan, it seems likely it would have been like a Ferdinand/Isabella pairing with Celene and Orlais assuming the dominant role in the dual monarchy.

Not to nit pick, but Catherine the Great was married. That's how she became Tsarina. :innocent:

[maxernst]

mousestalker wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I believe Anora was modeled after Queen Elizabeth.

I think there are sound historical reasons why most of the more famous woman monarchs in our history didn't marry (Elizabeth, Catherine the Great).  Admittedly, Ferelden appears to be substantially less sexist than our pre-industrial world, so the Queen might not be forced into a subordinate position by marriage.  Still, choosing a husband for a sitting monarch opens all kinds of potential problems:  marrying somebody in another royal line could result in the throne passing to a foreign dynasty at some point, marrying a noble in your own country (like the Couslands) could cause issues with other powerful families (the Guerins?).  It's interesting that Celene's not married either.  Had she married Cailan, it seems likely it would have been like a Ferdinand/Isabella pairing with Celene and Orlais assuming the dominant role in the dual monarchy.

Not to nit pick, but Catherine the Great was married. That's how she became Tsarina. :innocent:

Whoops...you're right, of course.   What I should have said is that she didn't remarry after becoming Czarina--much like Anora.

[Addai]

@Wulfram: Thereby making civil war much more likely. Anora's succession in itself wasn't undisputed.

Modifié par Addai67, 20 décembre 2010 - 05:22 .

[maxernst]

Addai67 wrote...

@Wulfram: Thereby making civil war much more likely. Anora's succession in itself wasn't undisputed.

Yes, but I see that as mostly because of Loghain's unilateral action.  My feeling is that civil war could have been averted had he allowed the Landsmeet to either vote on a successor or allowed them to vote on a regent (and Anora would have been a logical one) to deal with the current situation and determine the succession later.  My instinct on Ferelden is that having a strong tradition of bottom-up government will help them avert civil war because unless the balance of power is very close (like the situation in Orzammar), most are likely to accept a Landsmeet decision. 

[Addai]

If Cailan had appointed an heir, it would have made a big difference. Seems to me Anora should have learned from that lesson. But, the writers have also made it so that it's unlikely there will be an heir no matter what.

[maxernst]

Addai67 wrote...

If Cailan had appointed an heir, it would have made a big difference. Seems to me Anora should have learned from that lesson. But, the writers have also made it so that it's unlikely there will be an heir no matter what.

We know that she doesn't marry or have children, but do we know for sure that she doesn't make a deathbed choice of successor, as Elizabeth did?  I can't recall the specifics of the end card.

[dbfandillyjam]

Anora may or may not be barren, if you play as a HMN, and spare Logain and do the DR and wed Anora , Logain mentions that Anora never wanted children. There are ways to prevent conception and she may have just been using those methods and that may be why she and Cailin had no heir.

Modifié par dbfandillyjam, 20 décembre 2010 - 06:08 .

[Wulfram]

Addai67 wrote...

IMO chances are very low that Anora + Alistair would produce an heir. Alistair is of lessened fertility, Anora is of questionable fertility, and they hate each other. Do the math.

Sorry for going back and on a tangent, but Alistair and Anora don't hate each other.  Unhardened Alistair is distinctly pro-Anora, unless she picks the wrong side at the landsmeet.

[IanPolaris]

Wulfram wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

IMO chances are very low that Anora + Alistair would produce an heir. Alistair is of lessened fertility, Anora is of questionable fertility, and they hate each other. Do the math.

Sorry for going back and on a tangent, but Alistair and Anora don't hate each other.  Unhardened Alistair is distinctly pro-Anora, unless she picks the wrong side at the landsmeet.

Yeah, but I get the impression that Anora hates men just sex in general.  When you couple that with the single-Anora in the epilog feeling that no man ever measured up to her father, I find that more than a tad creepy.

-Polaris

[Addai]

Wulfram wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

IMO chances are very low that Anora + Alistair would produce an heir. Alistair is of lessened fertility, Anora is of questionable fertility, and they hate each other. Do the math.

Sorry for going back and on a tangent, but Alistair and Anora don't hate each other.  Unhardened Alistair is distinctly pro-Anora, unless she picks the wrong side at the landsmeet.

lolwut... just try asking him to marry her.  He praises her abilities even when hardened, but personally can't stand her.  It's even in the VO notes for his line where he says "there are worse things than being married to a beautiful woman" (VO note: But he can't stand this woman.)

Modifié par Addai67, 20 décembre 2010 - 07:34 .

[mousestalker]

Addai67 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

IMO chances are very low that Anora + Alistair would produce an heir. Alistair is of lessened fertility, Anora is of questionable fertility, and they hate each other. Do the math.

Sorry for going back and on a tangent, but Alistair and Anora don't hate each other.  Unhardened Alistair is distinctly pro-Anora, unless she picks the wrong side at the landsmeet.

lolwut... just try asking him to marry her.  He praises her abilities even when hardened, but personally can't stand her.  It's even in the VO notes for his line where he says "there are worse things than being married to a beautiful woman" (VO note: But he can't stand this woman.)

I'd love to know what experiences he has had with her. We know he only met Cailan the one time. When did he meet Anora?

There's a fanfic in there somewhere...

[Wulfram]

Addai67 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

IMO chances are very low that Anora + Alistair would produce an heir. Alistair is of lessened fertility, Anora is of questionable fertility, and they hate each other. Do the math.

Sorry for going back and on a tangent, but Alistair and Anora don't hate each other.  Unhardened Alistair is distinctly pro-Anora, unless she picks the wrong side at the landsmeet.

lolwut... just try asking him to marry her.  He praises her abilities even when hardened, but personally can't stand her.  It's even in the VO notes for his line where he says "there are worse things than being married to a beautiful woman" (VO note: But he can't stand this woman.)

Not wanting to marry someone doesn't mean you hate them.

What's the circumstances of the "beautiful woman" line?  I don't think I've seen it - and my computer doesn't seem to want to run the toolset at the moment.

[EnforcerGREG]

dbfandillyjam wrote...

Anora may or may not be barren, if you play as a HMN, and spare Logain and do the DR and wed Anora , Logain mentions that Anora never wanted children. There are ways to prevent conception and she may have just been using those methods and that may be why she and Cailin had no heir.

Could you give us some dialogue as to how that conversartion went? I've never had that

[Addai]

Wulfram wrote...
Not wanting to marry someone doesn't mean you hate them.

What's the circumstances of the "beautiful woman" line?  I don't think I've seen it - and my computer doesn't seem to want to run the toolset at the moment.

It's if you spare Loghain and marry Alistair to Anora, and I believe if it's Loghain does the US.

Grudging respect for someone doesn't mean you like them, either.  Alistair just thinks she'd make a better ruler than him, but when it comes down to it he's no fan.  For one thing, she's Loghain's daughter and he doesn't trust her.  My favorite line is when she betrays you in the LM and he says, "And she seemed like such a friendly despot." 

Modifié par Addai67, 20 décembre 2010 - 09:50 .

[Addai]

mousestalker wrote...
I'd love to know what experiences he has had with her. We know he only met Cailan the one time. When did he meet Anora?

There's a fanfic in there somewhere...

If you ask Anora how she knows Alistair, she says that Cailan knew him.  So I doubt they ever met.  But she's Loghain's daughter, so that probably has a lot to do with his distaste for her.  Several of his lines indicate he lumps them together.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Wulfram wrote...

Well, not having a blood heir puts her in a position to choose her successor, and thus have more influence over Ferelden's future than simply trusting in the lottery of birth.

This. In my opinion, a much better way to manage a monarchy, since bloodlines really only matter physically to studbook perusers like Eamon. Blood in no way gurantees a suitable, competant ruler, no matter how much education/how fine an upbringing. In fact, history and genetics often leans the other way, dynasties wearing thin quickly because of things like idiots inheriting the throne, as well as numerous genetic defects from generations of inbreeding that have effected a person's ability to chew food properly or stop bleeding, let alone rule a nation or Empire.

I am actually quite glad to see both Dynasties end. I hope it ushers in a new age for Ferelden, though it will likely be won through another civil war/internal crisis. But you can't make an omlette without cracking a few eggs, and you can't move Ferelden forward without some serious growing pains and headaches.

Sometimes, instability is a very good thing, if the current situation is untenable.

[Wulfram]

Addai67 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
Not wanting to marry someone doesn't mean you hate them.

What's the circumstances of the "beautiful woman" line?  I don't think I've seen it - and my computer doesn't seem to want to run the toolset at the moment.

It's if you spare Loghain and marry Alistair to Anora, and I believe if it's Loghain does the US.

Ah, I've never done that.

So Alistair's hardened, bitter, and betrayed, and they started their relationship with an argument over whether her father should be killed.  I can see why hatred would apply there, but I don't think it can be generalised.

Grudging respect for someone doesn't mean you like them, either.  Alistair just thinks she'd make a better ruler than him, but when it comes down to it he's no fan.  For one thing, she's Loghain's daughter and he doesn't trust her.  My favorite line is when she betrays you in the LM and he says, "And she seemed like such a friendly despot." 

I never said they liked each other, only that they didn't hate each other.  Hardened Alistair doesn't trust Anora, Anora doesn't really respect Alistair.  But I haven't seen hatred in any of my playthroughs, and I tend to expect that Alistair at least will try pretty hard to make the marriage work, at least if there's no warden mistress complicating things.

[Addai]

Yeah sure, Alistair would try out of duty's sake. He tries to take her hand in the coronation for instance, and she jerks hers away.

Not reading a lot of juice there. I think they could come to have a decent working relationship if Loghain dies, preferably by the Warden's hand. But given the other fertility issues, I'm just not seeing a lot of hay being made in that relationship.

Modifié par Addai67, 20 décembre 2010 - 11:13 .

[Addai]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
I am actually quite glad to see both Dynasties end. I hope it ushers in a new age for Ferelden, though it will likely be won through another civil war/internal crisis. But you can't make an omlette without cracking a few eggs, and you can't move Ferelden forward without some serious growing pains and headaches.

Sometimes, instability is a very good thing, if the current situation is untenable.

I can't agree there.  Instability always hits the innocent hardest, and those eggs you're talking about is likely blood being spilled.  For a country that has suffered a brutal occupation and a Blight, it would be nice to think they had at least a generation or two breathing room.

[maxernst]

Addai67 wrote...

mousestalker wrote...
I'd love to know what experiences he has had with her. We know he only met Cailan the one time. When did he meet Anora?

There's a fanfic in there somewhere...

If you ask Anora how she knows Alistair, she says that Cailan knew him.  So I doubt they ever met.  But she's Loghain's daughter, so that probably has a lot to do with his distaste for her.  Several of his lines indicate he lumps them together.

He might be influenced by Eamon there, as well.  Eamon definitely sees Anora as being very similar to Loghain (which I actually don't--I see her as more like Eamon himself).

[Addai]

maxernst wrote...
He might be influenced by Eamon there, as well.  Eamon definitely sees Anora as being very similar to Loghain (which I actually don't--I see her as more like Eamon himself).

She is like Eamon in that they are both political, but Alistair specifically says "they think they're the only ones who can fix things, and everyone else just needs to get out of their way."  He's right on the money about that.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Addai67 wrote...

I can't agree there.  Instability always hits the innocent hardest, and those eggs you're talking about is likely blood being spilled.  For a country that has suffered a brutal occupation and a Blight, it would be nice to think they had at least a generation or two breathing room.

I'm aware blood will be spilt. Probably alot of it. But that's the nature of the game, and some of the greatest advancements in human history and the evolution of society were bought and paid for by the blood of millions, innocents included.

But in the end, the blood of those victims bought more for posterity than peace or comfortable change did. So, if that's what it takes to achieve a better future in the long run, it's a price worth paying.

Ferelden has already had it's generation of peace, between when Maric defeated orlais and the 5th Blight, about 30 years. And after the Blight has ended, it can most likely look forward to about another 20 or 30 years of stability under whoever's in charge. But I'd rather take my hard knocks now or in the near future than leave it for future generations to contend with. Ferelden's, and by extention, greater Thedas' problems, aren't going to be resolved without some serious pain.